Chosen by God - A study in Election

[EleventhHour]

"they were chosen.. they did nothing.....the Holy Spirit just came upon them"
That's quite an admission. Well spoken.
Sounds like a merciful act of grace by God Himself, no more no less.

So God's grace is irresistible then?

 

[EleventhHour]

Because they don't want to be saved.

So they have resisted God's grace?

 

[EleventhHour]

Actually you could say more accurately that one group is CHOSEN for salvation and the other group is ABANDONED to damnation. Not CHOSEN to damnation. Why? Because they don't want to be saved. Because they love their sin. Because they resist the Holy Spirit. Because they commit the unpardonable sin. Maybe lots of similar things.

That is just some off-the-cuff commentary. Not meant to be doctrine. Nothing more than a reaction to what you have stated. Whether it makes sense or not, or is scriptural or not, I leave up to you.

You just refuted your own doctrine of election here.

 

[cv5]

Is it not the Calvinist view that some were created/predestined for damnation?

No it is not. Double predestination is not a Calvinist view. Please bear in mind that I am not a Calvinist.

 

[cv5]

So they have resisted God's grace?

Furthermore the Bible says that those who are abandoned to their godless lusts hate God and they hate Gods Son.

 

[cv5]

You just refuted your own doctrine of election here.

Aaaahhhh look, I stated very clearly that these were some off-the-cuff remarks and not meant to proclaim doctrine. Just to be clear. Just some off-the-cuff remarks. Just some knee-jerk commentary. Not trying to prove or disprove any doctrine.

 

[cv5]

So God's grace is irresistible then?

I couldn't say unless I walked a mile in your shoes. All I know is I did not resist this gracious gift of the forgiveness of sins that I heard about. I ran to it. Found out about it. Gave up everything and committed my life to its Author and Provider. That's my testimony.

 

[jackrosie]

I am so tired of reading how they were chosen.. they did nothing.....the Holy Spirit just came upon them .. did not even know the bible.. etc.,, etc.,

Yet they do everything and anything to complicate and obfuscate everything you stated above.

Yup,I had never read a bible in my life,only after salvation,which the Holy Spirit leads me through.

I’m still waiting for you to post scripture,that says,”you must read your bible before the Lord can save you”

.

The bible talks about receiving a new heart......can you explain that?

Also fruit of the spirit,every time I ask you that,you run a mile,please explain why?

You shall know them by their fruit?

I also don’t understand how you can believe in your head only and be saved,what about the heart?

 

[EleventhHour]

I couldn't say unless I walked a mile in your shoes. All I know is I did not resist this gracious gift of the forgiveness of sins that I heard about. I ran to it. Found out about it. Gave up everything and committed my life to its Author and Provider. That's my testimony.

This is not the doctrine of election.. I am thinking you do not really ascribe to the doctrine of election.

You have been listening to MacArthur he is not forthright in his Calvinism so he makes it sound biblical.

Election and Effectual Call/Irresistible Grace cannot be separated.

 

[cv5]

This is not the doctrine of election.. I am thinking you do not really ascribe to the doctrine of election.

You have been listening to MacArthur he is not forthright in his Calvinism so he makes it sound biblical.

Election and Effectual Call/Irresistible Grace cannot be separated.

Agree, it must be terrible to be trammeled and ossified with a constricted, narrow and unimaginative scope and breadth of comprehension. Indeed many of us suffer from these and similar maladies, as I can likewise testify.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yup,I had never read a bible in my life,only after salvation,which the Holy Spirit leads me through.

I’m still waiting for you to post scripture,that says,”you must read your bible before the Lord can save you”

.

The bible talks about receiving a new heart......can you explain that?

Also fruit of the spirit,every time I ask you that,you run a mile,please explain why?

You shall know them by their fruit?

I also don’t understand how you can believe in your head only and be saved,what about the heart?

This has all been discussed numerous times.

We are now discussing the erroneous un-scriptural doctrine of selection of some and the denying of grace to others.

 

[49]

This maybe of interest to some. A survey done by Ligonier Ministries and LifeWay Research (Yr. 2020):

Questions asked and there responses.:


1). Jesus was a great teacher but He was not God.
--- Among general population -- 52% agreed and 36% disagreed.
--- Among Evangelicals ----------- 30% agreed and 66% disagreed.

2). God chose the people He would save, before He created the World.
--- Among general population -- 26% agreed and 50% disagreed.
--- Among Evangelicals ----------- 38% agreed and 44% disagreed.

3). The Bible, like all Sacred writings, contains helpful accounts of ancient myths but is not literally true.
--- Among general population -- 48% agreed and 41% disagreed.
--- Evangelicals were not questioned.

4). Religious belief is a matter of personal opinion, it is not objective.
--- Among general population -- 54% agreed and 34% disagreed.
--- Evangelicals were not questioned.

5) The Holy Spirit gives a spiritual New Birth or new life, before a person has faith in Jesus Christ.
-- general population was not questioned.
-- Among Evangelicals ------------ 57% agreed and 35% disagreed.

6). God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
-- general population was not questioned.
-- Among Evangelicals ------------ 42% agreed and 48% disagreed.

>>>> missing percentages were in the category of "Not Sure".

The state of religion today.

Wow!!

 

[jackrosie]

This has all been discussed numerous times.

We are now discussing the erroneous un-scriptural doctrine of selection of some and the denying of grace to others.

Being chosen by God is not unscriptural.........

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them...and yes,God drew me to Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you. It is by default one group is chosen for damnation if one group is chosen for salvation.

All word games in the world wont change that. Calvinists are something else to deal with, so cold. So cold.

No..very simple ;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

 

[Iconoclast]

I know what Calvinism teaches . The clue is ' calvinism' . it's not the bible is it ?

It is in all 66 books

 

[cv5]

This has all been discussed numerous times.

We are now discussing the erroneous un-scriptural doctrine of selection of some and the denying of grace to others.

Do you know any unsaved individuals? Because if you do the only conclusion to which you can come is that some people are being saved and some people are not. That is just the brute reality we are dealing with here.

Now I am convinced that the Bible explains in perfectly lucid terms about why the situation prevails at all. Perfectly obvious, crystal clear, unambiguous and the terminology is easy to understand. I have accepted what the Bible says at face value. Until further notice it is a settled matter.

So you tell us: why exactly do some people "refuse" to believe and are utterly incapable in conjuring up, and mustering the resources of their free will to produce the necessary faith?
I mean what exactly is going on here? Are these people on drugs? Mentally ill? Retarded? What?
Who in the right mind would turn down the gospel of the free gift of forgiveness in Jesus Christ? Who would turned down eternal blessings, eternal life, and a share in the inheritance of the riches of the universe? Why would anyone spurn the opportunity to be adopted in the family of God Almighty?

In my opinion these questions are answered more than satisfactorily in the Bible.

But by all means say on. We are awaiting your reply.

 

[Bbrdrd]

No it is not. Double predestination is not a Calvinist view. Please bear in mind that I am not a Calvinist.

Huge flaw with that statement: there is only double predestination under the Calvinist soteriology.

The only thing that separates the damned from the saved under Calvin's theology is God's choice. They are just as unrepentant of sinners, just as damnable and just as guilty. Under that system not being chosen is the exact same thing as choosing for damnation.

It is only if the choice is based on something inherent to the individual that it is possible for there to be a single predestination, because the separation between the lost and the saved is no longer simply God's choice but something inherent to their being.

So own the full implications of your system, or recognize that unconditional election doesn't fit the Biblical data.

 

[cv5]

Huge flaw with that statement: there is only double predestination under the Calvinist soteriology.

The only thing that separates the damned from the saved under Calvin's theology is God's choice. They are just as unrepentant of sinners, just as damnable and just as guilty. Under that system not being chosen is the exact same thing as choosing for damnation.

It is only if the choice is based on something inherent to the individual that it is possible for there to be a single predestination, because the separation between the lost and the saved is no longer simply God's choice but something inherent to their being.

So own the full implications of your system, or recognize that unconditional election doesn't fit the Biblical data.

That's what you say. But that's not what the Calvinists say. That is not what McArthur says.

 

[Bbrdrd]

That's what you say. But that's not what the Calvinists say. That is not what McArthur says.

Simply because they don't own the full implications of their system doesn't make it any more valid. Even Calvin recognized that there is no such thing as a single predestination writing of it in the institutes under the chapter "OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION. ", it's only those who see how monstrous that system makes God that try to distance themselves from it.

Single predestination predicated on the difference being God's choice is a logical absurdity. A violation of non-contradiction.

 

[cv5]

Simply because they don't own the full implications of their system doesn't make it any more valid. Even Calvin recognized that there is no such thing as a single predestination writing of it in the institutes under the chapter "OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION. ", it's only those who see how monstrous that system makes God that try to distance themselves from it.

Single predestination predicated on the difference being God's choice is a logical absurdity. A violation of non-contradiction.

Good grief man, what you call illogical, contradictory and paradoxical here in three dimensional space can be easily resolved in higher dimensional spaces.

Perhaps you have never heard of this, but God inhabits the highest degree of dimensional space......AND HE HAS THE GREATEST DEGREES OF FREEDOM, beyond His creation. What He does is right because He is free to do it. What He does is just because He is free to do it. He shows mercy upon whom He will show mercy and compassion upon whom He will show compassion because He is free to do it.

Now that is a bunch of human guesswork and philosophy that I will grant you. But to think that God is somehow constrained to the notions of justice and righteousness of mere men is sheer folly........in my opinion. But I think the Bible backs me up on this idea very strongly.