CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY

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phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#61
Feb 12, 2009
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#61
throughfaith said:
A hyper mid dispensationalist . Do you even know what that means? its quite specific and I've not said that is what i believe. So this is quite entertaining.
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It is that my friend.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#63
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#63
throughfaith said:
I can't argue with that.
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And it is because all men are sinners and all need to be saved, that God desires the salvation of ALL MANKIND. Which automatically cancels any idea of God choosing some for salvation and others for damnation. Therefore all Scriptures must be interpreted with that in mind.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#65
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#65
phil36 said:
It is that my friend.
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phil36 said:
Hi throughfaith, where did I say this.. you have me as saying it?
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///
I believe what Christians have always believed..the New Testament begins and ends with Jesus /// Begins with Jesus when ? His birth ? His first recorded words in luke 2 ? His baptism? And chirstians didn't believe in Calvinsm until Augustine .
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#67
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#67
throughfaith said:
///

Begins with Jesus when ? His birth ? His first recorded words in luke 2 ? His baptism?
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Yes but you need to learn to quote correctly,, a paraphrase of your own thoughts is not a quote!


The dawning of the New covenant starts with the birth of Jesus, taking on Human flesh, living that sinless life - this is part of that covenant for if he was not a spotless lamb the sacrifice would be of no avail.

The gospel is Jesus.. his life, teaching, death and resurrection .
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok here is a question relating to your OP


Did Jesus teach a gospel of grace, did he teach justification by faith alone
 
NOV25

NOV25

Well-known member
#68
Nov 23, 2019
995
390
63
#68
throughfaith said:
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5 is an awesome chapter on which clarifies the order of salvation and the components of salvation .
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.
Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .
My contention from these verses is this .
1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

3) Justification is by Faith . Faith is the prerequisite to the grace .

4) Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .


5) Yes this chapter, amoung many is anti Calvinistic . But it also proves false many other denominational teaching on Lordship salvation/ conditional salvation . Romans 5 is contorted to fit systematic theology ,but if we let the verses stand as they are we would understand what they actually SAY and not what we are told they TEACH .



Let's discuss
What say you on Romans 5 ?
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What say I? I say you're confused and I'm tired of hearing about it.





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T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#69
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#69
phil36 said:
Yes but you need to learn to quote correctly,, a paraphrase of your own thoughts is not a quote!


The dawning of the New covenant starts with the birth of Jesus, taking on Human flesh, living that sinless life - this is part of that covenant for if he was not a spotless lamb the sacrifice would be of no avail.

The gospel is Jesus.. his life, teaching, death and resurrection .
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok here is a question relating to your OP


Did Jesus teach a gospel of grace, did he teach justification by faith alone
Click to expand...
///The dawning of the New covenant//// ? This is a paraphrase .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#72
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#72
phil36 said:
Yes but you need to learn to quote correctly,, a paraphrase of your own thoughts is not a quote!


The dawning of the New covenant starts with the birth of Jesus, taking on Human flesh, living that sinless life - this is part of that covenant for if he was not a spotless lamb the sacrifice would be of no avail.

The gospel is Jesus.. his life, teaching, death and resurrection .
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok here is a question relating to your OP


Did Jesus teach a gospel of grace, did he teach justification by faith alone
Click to expand...
I can't answer those questions properly because the way you have worded them . I try deal with what the bible SAYS and not sweeping statements with partial verses.
John 1
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ

Gospel of grace ?
We have this verse .
24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20 .

Which verse are you thinking of where Jesus says ' the gospel of grace ' ?
And which verse are you thinking were it says" Justifucation by faith alone" , taught by Jesus ?
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#74
Mar 21, 2015
4,048
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Australia
#74
sin = Death
All have sinned and need salvation from every sin
Jesus paid it all and by faith we can accept that gift of His life.

Through Love God will not accept one sin into His kingdom because it = death and God is Just.
Through Love God offers us the grace and mercy to take away our sin. = Justification.
Through Love we are given the choice as to what we will do with the known sins in our lives.

Jesus died for all and His blood is freely given to those that by faith accept it. Justice and mercy meet at the cross.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#75
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#75
Notice the word' Gift ' a gift has to be recieved. Now read the following..

the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
This ' free gift ' came upon ALL MEN as it says . But a gift has to be recieved , the tense is not passive, but active . Its come upon ALL MEN ,but not ALL men recieve it .

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#76
Aug 4, 2020
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#76
Do calvinists have a verse that says the free gift to justification to life is an exclusive gift ?
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

Well-known member
#77
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
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#77
TMS said:
sin = Death
All have sinned and need salvation from every sin
Jesus paid it all and by faith we can accept that gift of His life.

Through Love God will not accept one sin into His kingdom because it = death and God is Just.
Through Love God offers us the grace and mercy to take away our sin. = Justification.
Through Love we are given the choice as to what we will do with the known sins in our lives.

Jesus died for all and His blood is freely given to those that by faith accept it. Justice and mercy meet at the cross.
Click to expand...
Actually, injustice and mercy meet at the cross, because the treatment Jesus (God in the flesh) received at the hands of sinners was unjust, but he showed mercy instead of killing them,

They have also surrounded me with words of hatred and fought against me without a cause....they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Psa.109:3,5

But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’ Jn.15:25

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself
Heb.12:3
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#78
Aug 4, 2020
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#78
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

' have sinned ' NOT because of any guilt inherited from Adam .
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#79
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#79
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Paul states things wonderfully here.. We are sinners by nature...our very nature we are born with before we even sinned.


5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#80
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#80
phil36 said:
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Paul states things wonderfully here.. We are sinners by nature...our very nature we are born with before we even sinned.


5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me
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David is not referring to guilt but sinfulness. Since Adam the ' bulls eye ' to even aim for , left after his sin . So Everyone sins and falls short .
 
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