Christian Doctrinal Understanding

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#41
Well, there's these...

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10:17]

and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [2 Timothy 3:15]

There's no other way to know the things of God and salvation than through His word.

Indeed this is saying that truth comes from the scriptures but where does anything say that the scriptures are the ONLY source of truth
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#42
Indeed this is saying that truth comes from the scriptures but where does anything say that the scriptures are the ONLY source of truth
So, what other source you believe other than scripture?
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#43
So, what other source you believe other than scripture?
Christ's church who in hand gave to us and preserved the scriptures which is what St. Paul seems to be getting at in his 1st letter to St. Timothy when he says that the church is the pillar of truth truth being scripture and other spiritual truths and the church being the faith Christ left for us essentially without the church we do not have Christ
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#44
Christ's church who in hand gave to us and preserved the scriptures which is what St. Paul seems to be getting at in his 1st letter to St. Timothy when he says that the church is the pillar of truth truth being scripture and other spiritual truths and the church being the faith Christ left for us essentially without the church we do not have Christ
There is a practical problem.

1. there is not one church, but many churches and all have their own doctrines

2. no church is free of errors
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#45
Christ's church who in hand gave to us and preserved the scriptures which is what St. Paul seems to be getting at in his 1st letter to St. Timothy when he says that the church is the pillar of truth truth being scripture and other spiritual truths and the church being the faith Christ left for us essentially without the church we do not have Christ
where Christ' church get the truth?

would you give Example the truth product of Christ's church?

why you say without the Church we do not have Christ. Some muslim Convert not from church evangelism
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,249
25,719
113
#46
Christ's church who in hand gave to us and preserved the scriptures which is what St. Paul seems to be getting at in his 1st letter to St. Timothy when he says that the church is the pillar of truth truth being scripture and other spiritual truths and the church being the faith Christ left for us essentially without the church we do not have Christ
You have it backwards. Without Christ there would be no church. Being a pillar we uphold the Truth; that means we uphold Jesus as the Truth and the living Word of God, not the traditions of man.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
#47
Indeed this is saying that truth comes from the scriptures but where does anything say that the scriptures are the ONLY source of truth
The bible says faith comes by hearing about the Christ. You can flip that around to say if you don't hear about the Christ you won't have faith. Both are true. So, seeing we are justified by faith, per Galatians 3:8 and Romans 5:1, this faith comes from hearing, and/or reading, the word of God.
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#48
There is a practical problem.

1. there is not one church, but many churches and all have their own doctrines

2. no church is free of errors
this statement seems to contradict one of Paul's letters where he is telling St. Timothy that the Church is the foundation of truth the fact is that yes there are many churches but they were historically collectively organized through common doctrine there were many churches but only one true Church
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#49
One question that should be elaborated and asked to many many people in this room that will probably cause a bit of a stir is why do so many people refuse to see non protestant Christian sects as Christian Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches I have all seen flippantly referred to apostate pagan religions on here and been compared to Scientology or Mormonism with no accurate basis can some one please try to explain this faulty frame of mind
It is not clear what you are asking, criticizing, or defending. Proper use of grammar, punctuation and sentence structure may help.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#50
Indeed this is saying that truth comes from the scriptures but where does anything say that the scriptures are the ONLY source of truth
Should that not be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the Scriptures? Christian could quote dozens of verses to the Traditionalists, but they would continue to harp on this fallacy.

When Jesus walked on this earth, the Apocrypha was present among the Hellenistic Jews. But Jesus never ever referred to it in any of His discourses. And after His resurrection His SOLE AUTHORITY was the Hebrew Tanakh (what we call the Old Testament). Study Luke 24.

So Rex, why don't you just go and sit down with Psalm 119 and meditate on ALL of it? Perhaps that will settle the question for you that for Christians the Bible is THE SOLE AUTHORITY for all things spiritual and moral, for doctrine and for practice (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#51
Should that not be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the Scriptures? Christian could quote dozens of verses to the Traditionalists, but they would continue to harp on this fallacy.

When Jesus walked on this earth, the Apocrypha was present among the Hellenistic Jews. But Jesus never ever referred to it in any of His discourses. And after His resurrection His SOLE AUTHORITY was the Hebrew Tanakh (what we call the Old Testament). Study Luke 24.

So Rex, why don't you just go and sit down with Psalm 119 and meditate on ALL of it? Perhaps that will settle the question for you that for Christians the Bible is THE SOLE AUTHORITY for all things spiritual and moral, for doctrine and for practice (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
Jesus never quoted the "apocrypha" well assuming by apocrypha you are referring to the Greek Septuagint this would be false Christ quoted both the book of Wisdom and the book of Sirach at various points in the gospel secondly Christ never quotes from say the book of Esther or the book of Ruth so does Christ not quoting from a book invalidate it?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#52
Jesus never quoted the "apocrypha" well assuming by apocrypha you are referring to the Greek Septuagint this would be false Christ quoted both the book of Wisdom and the book of Sirach at various points in the gospel secondly Christ never quotes from say the book of Esther or the book of Ruth so does Christ not quoting from a book invalidate it?
Let's not get off on a tangent. The Palestinian Jews had only one Hebrew Bible, with 24 books which correspond to our OT. And even the Catholic scholar Jerome rejected the Apocrypha. Check it out for yourself. Reasons why the Apocrypha does NOT belong in the Bible!

But the real issue is for you to sit down with Psalm 119 and allow it to impact your heart and mind, so that you walk away from traditionalism and stick to Scripture.
 
Last edited:

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#53
Indeed this is saying that truth comes from the scriptures but where does anything say that the scriptures are the ONLY source of truth
1 Corinthians 2:11 (KJV)
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?

-man knows and learns by his physical sences, seeing- hearing............sciences


even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

-the things of God can only be revieled by God through the Holy Spirit.
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#54
Let's not get off on a tangent. The Palestinian Jews had only one Hebrew Bible, with 24 books which correspond to our OT. And even the Catholic scholar Jerome rejected the Apocrypha. Check it out for yourself. Reasons why the Apocrypha does NOT belong in the Bible!

But the real issue is for you to sit down with Psalm 119 and allow it to impact your heart and mind, so that you walk away from traditionalism and stick to Scripture.
St. Jerome was one individual who hypothesized that the extra books of the Septuagint may not be inspired funny thing is he included these books in his Vulgate cannon of the Bible and when Pope St. Damasus I deemed these books to be inspired referred to as deuterocanonicals his views on the books changed significantly beyond that many Jews actually used these books up until the 6th century believe it or not the official canonized Hebrew Bible came after the canonized Christian Bible the rejection of these books seems to mainly stem from the idea of them containing Christian doctrines that refuted the idea of Christ not being the messiah rather than anything else. The fact is there are other books that were not included in the cannon that the church deems to be of inspiration but don't fit the liturgy this was the original purpose of scripture not individual study not the apocrypha would be books that are of no inspiration and contain heretical concepts none of these books would fit this mold.
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#55
Let's not get off on a tangent. The Palestinian Jews had only one Hebrew Bible, with 24 books which correspond to our OT. And even the Catholic scholar Jerome rejected the Apocrypha. Check it out for yourself. Reasons why the Apocrypha does NOT belong in the Bible!

But the real issue is for you to sit down with Psalm 119 and allow it to impact your heart and mind, so that you walk away from traditionalism and stick to Scripture.
and I don't reject scripture I just understand that scripture does not teach that it is the only source of truth in fact such a view in a way is circular reasoning as ALL of the early Christians between the time of Jesus and the Synod of Hippo relied on oral tradition as their main source and ALL of the church fathers seem to indicate inspired tradition that is from the church is equal in authority with the scriptures. In fact to claim that you yourself believe the only truth comes from scripture is very much a straw man argument as it is not even in scripture and beyond that many spiritual things you believe are probably not in scripture either such as Sola Fide, Sola Graita, and most likely the rapture
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#56
and I don't reject scripture I just understand that scripture does not teach that it is the only source of truth...
That is precisely why I directed you to Psalm 119. But it is evident that you failed to do so, and so you are back to talking about Tradition and the ECF. Just go to Psalm 119 and allow it to sink into your heart and mind. After all it is the Word of God. After that I don't think you will be so keen about Tradition and the ECF. Speaking of which, many errors in both the RCC and the ECO arose because of the ECF.
 
May 1, 2016
162
1
0
#57
That is precisely why I directed you to Psalm 119. But it is evident that you failed to do so, and so you are back to talking about Tradition and the ECF. Just go to Psalm 119 and allow it to sink into your heart and mind. After all it is the Word of God. After that I don't think you will be so keen about Tradition and the ECF. Speaking of which, many errors in both the RCC and the ECO arose because of the ECF.
to be fair I will admit since I have been on this discussion board I have not read this specific Psalm also to be fair I will read it later today I just havnt token the time as I understand this is a long one lol(JK but really Ive just been responding at whim going in and out not really staying on here for long periods of time) but on the same note why would brining up the church fathers be problematic I mean historically they were the disciples of the disciples basically a chain of disciples going down to the modern day I have no clue why someone such as say St. Ignatius of Antioch or St. Polycarp would intend to lie about church teachings when they were both contemparies of St. John the apostle who as we know was Christ's apostle I mean this actually raises a question "if apostolic authority isn't reliable on matters of tradition and interpretation and scripture than what is?" I mean if that were the case I would have a hard time following Christianity at all as it would seem rather strange for second generation disciples to make up garbage when they are learning from people that learning directly from the incarnation of God himself
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#58
I can try. I can give my thoughts on it.
We have come to believe that some kind of false "perfection of doctrine" determines if a man is saved and walks with God.
No one has perfect doctrine because no one knows God or His mind perfectly.

Even Paul said in a place, I give my opinion here and I think I have the mind of God in this matter.

We don't know everything about even our spouse. How is it that we think we know everything about God? If we can't completely know an imperfect human, how can we completely know a perfect God??

Sometimes it seems we have changed the verse from: by this everyone will know you are My disciples - that you love one another, to: By this everyone will know that you are my disciples - that you agree about everything.
Got to say. I'm really impressed you could figure out enough of what he said to try to answer.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,624
1,381
113
#59
Punctuation is your friend.

Words mean things. But they can mean really strange things without punctuation. :rolleyes:
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,940
113
#60
to be fair I will admit since I have been on this discussion board I have not read this specific Psalm also to be fair I will read it later today I just havnt token the time as I understand this is a long one lol(JK but really Ive just been responding at whim going in and out not really staying on here for long periods of time) but on the same note why would brining up the church fathers be problematic I mean historically they were the disciples of the disciples basically a chain of disciples going down to the modern day I have no clue why someone such as say St. Ignatius of Antioch or St. Polycarp would intend to lie about church teachings when they were both contemparies of St. John the apostle who as we know was Christ's apostle I mean this actually raises a question "if apostolic authority isn't reliable on matters of tradition and interpretation and scripture than what is?" I mean if that were the case I would have a hard time following Christianity at all as it would seem rather strange for second generation disciples to make up garbage when they are learning from people that learning directly from the incarnation of God himself

Good for you! You sed quotation marks correctly, and the question mark. Now, notice you wrote 9 lines, and there is not a period (not including the period for abbreviation!) once!

Nine lines all compressed into small space meaning, it is impossible to read. So, paragraphs and periods and commas! As someone used to say, "More white space!" I think that was another forum, perhaps?

So, here it is, cleaned up a bit.

To be fair, I will admit since I have been on this discussion board, I have not read this specific Psalm. Also, to be fair, I will read it later today!

I just haven't taken the time as I understand this is a long one! lol (JK But really, I've just been responding at whim! Going in and out, not really staying on here for long periods of time) But, on the same note, why would bringing up the church fathers be problematic?

I mean, historically, they were the disciples of the disciples! Basically, a chain of disciples coming down to the modern day! I have no clue why someone such as say St. Ignatius of Antioch or St. Polycarp would intend to lie about church teachings, when they were both contemparies of St. John the apostle! We know St. John was Christ's apostle!

I mean, this actually raises a question "If apostolic authority isn't reliable on matters of tradition and interpretation and scripture, then what is?" I mean, if that were the case, I would have a hard time following Christianity at all! It would seem rather strange for second generation disciples to make up garbage, when they are learning from people that learning directly from the incarnation of God himself[
Also, apostrophes, which is the setting aside of a small phrase, such as "I mean" or "to be fair." As above!

As to your comments, have you never played the telephone game? Usually a birthday parties, someone starts with a phrase, and whispers it to the person next to them. They whisper to the person next to them, and so on, till it gets back around the table to the last person. They say what was whispered to them. So, you might start with "Power Rangers," and end with "Baby in a Manger." So, no! The "chain" is always broken, and most of the time, not intentionally. Although where money and things like indulgences are concerned, probably intentionally!

Word of mouth, which is all most people had up till the invention of the printing press, was all people had. They might have heard it wrong, or communicated it wrong. They might have added something. This is a big issue in the Byzantine manuscripts. There were a multitude of copyists mistakes, which over 14 centuries or so, added up, so the last Greek manuscripts were utterly corrupted.

There is an early church manuscript called the Didache. It is a good thing to read, not for doctrine, but to see how this early manuscript deviates from the Bible, only one century later. We translated three of the chapters in Greek class. Some of it was straight from the Bible, but some was not in the Bible at all. For instance, a traveling evangelist who asked for money, was considered a false prophet. That is not in the Bible, although our class and professor agreed it would be a good thing. LOL

So, perhaps I write that comment here, and then someone tells someone else, they read that the Bible says any evangelist who asks for money is a false prophet. They tell someone else, the next thing you know, a church is formed, books written, and it is not in the Bible. It is made up, not inspired. It may have even been valuable for the early church. But, certainly not a command from God.

And finally, the point, is that - if people were Biblically literate, they would know that there is no prohibition against paying evangelists. That is not opinion, it is the truth. Yet, the church could easily have adopted this idea, codified it and said it is inspired, and made it a church tradition. That is the problem with the Catholic church. That has happened for 16 centuries, and the common people were purposely barred from reading the Bible, so they could not discern what were the real words written by the apostles were, and compare them to church doctrine, which had gone totally away from the Bible.

And you, my friend, besides needing to improve your reading skills, also need to read the whole Bible through. The fact that you have not read Psalm 119, says to me that you have barely touched the Bible. Until you have completed that, once, but more likely 10 or 20, or 50 times, like me, your comments are totally invalid. You will believe these corrupted Catholic traditions your whole life, until you actually read the Bible and find out they are not written there, and many of them directly contradict the Bible. I won't go into examples of this dreadful corruption, as there are whole threads written here on this issue.

PS. Psalm 119 is the longest chapter in the Bible. It is an acrostic poem, meaning each line of each stanza starts with a succeeding letter of the Hebrew alphabet, which has 22 letters. So, likely, you will not get through it today. If you had read the Bible, you would realize that!