Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I believe Paul was saying, and I have always agreed, that men need to be convinced in their own mind that God's way is better than their religious traditions. That if you force someone to do something, like respect and honor God and His Word, there is no willful change of mind. Repentance must be a willful act, a choice. Man must choose God from the heart.

Paul gives them God's instruction, but they must accept it and be convinced in their own mind.
what you are saying here, that "each person mus be convinced in their own mind" to keep God's commands, is exactly the thing that you're guilty of continuously, falsely accusing me of saying.

because Paul says the one who observes a day does to for the Lord, and the one who observes all days equally likewise does so to the Lord -- that is the conclusion of 'each should be fully persuaded in their own mind' -- he is saying that both are approved by God because both do so to Him. by your saying that Paul is talking about whether a person should obey God or not in this statement, it being up to them to be convinced of themselves, that obedience or disobedience to God is totally up to the individual, because Paul says both are good.

if Paul is talking about willful obedience or disobedience to God and calling both "good" then the Bible is calling willful sin good.
you're either quite wrong in your interpretation, or you broke the Bible, and stripped away all authority of God to command and to judge. if what you say about this text is correct, then you're implying that actively engaging in wickedness is good '
because a person has to decide for themselves it's evil'
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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what you are saying here, that "each person mus be convinced in their own mind" to keep God's commands, is exactly the thing that you're guilty of continuously, falsely accusing me of saying.

because Paul says the one who observes a day does to for the Lord, and the one who observes all days equally likewise does so to the Lord -- that is the conclusion of 'each should be fully persuaded in their own mind' -- he is saying that both are approved by God because both do so to Him. by your saying that Paul is talking about whether a person should obey God or not in this statement, it being up to them to be convinced of themselves, that obedience or disobedience to God is totally up to the individual, because Paul says both are good.

if Paul is talking about willful obedience or disobedience to God and calling both "good" then the Bible is calling willful sin good.
you're either quite wrong in your interpretation, or you broke the Bible, and stripped away all authority of God to command and to judge. if what you say about this text is correct, then you're implying that actively engaging in wickedness is good '
because a person has to decide for themselves it's evil'
How can DISobedience be good and acceptable to the Lord ? When it comes to FOOD who GOD has cleansed it can no longer be sin to eat it...
BUT it is different with the Sabbath DAY who God has NOT changed and is still sin if transgressed.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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How can DISobedience be good and acceptable to the Lord ? When it comes to FOOD who GOD has cleansed it can no longer be sin to eat it...
BUT it is different with the Sabbath DAY who God has NOT changed and is still sin if transgressed.
John said he was in the Sprit on the Lord's Day. the greek word for Sabbath, Sabbaton, used 68 times in the N.T. is NOT the word for the Lord's Day.

so, John was not talking about the Sabbath. you do think John the Beloved is creditable , don't you??
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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How can DISobedience be good and acceptable to the Lord ? When it comes to FOOD who GOD has cleansed it can no longer be sin to eat it...
BUT it is different with the Sabbath DAY who God has NOT changed and is still sin if transgressed.
Disobedience is definitely not good. But studydudes private interpretation of Romans 14 makes Paul essentially saying 'don't preach repentance let people figure it out for themselves'

Also definitely not good, but apparently the length one will go to in order to justify themselves in contradicting Colossians 2:16

((?))
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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just like you, with your ridiculous oneness garbage defy God the Father, saying of the Son, " hear Him ". another Scripture you are in contempt of.

got a source yet? you know, one of your bros mentioned " out of the mouths of two or three witnesses " , just a few posts back.

is he right? or how, if he uses this, and you do not, considering both of you say pretty [say] much the same thing, how are you justified not to??
Ain't I your bro too, GB9? :unsure:

Also - generally speaking - if you say we ARE saying the same thing wouldn't that be satisfying the "two witness" requirement? I'm not sure what specific evidence you're looking for since I haven't been following the conversation too well but I just wanted to reply to what you say here.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Ain't I your bro too, GB9? :unsure:

Also - generally speaking - if you say we ARE saying the same thing wouldn't that be satisfying the "two witness" requirement? I'm not sure what specific evidence you're looking for since I haven't been following the conversation too well but I just wanted to reply to what you say here.
are you? don't know. do you teach salvation through Christ ? if so, then yes. if you teach that keeping the Law/Sabbath for salvation? then no.
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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John said he was in the Sprit on the Lord's Day. the greek word for Sabbath, Sabbaton, used 68 times in the N.T. is NOT the word for the Lord's Day.

so, John was not talking about the Sabbath. you do think John the Beloved is creditable , don't you??
No offense, but you're not using proper reasoning here. You're confusing translation with association to make your point. Of course "Sabbaton" isn't the word translated into "The Lord's Day" in the passage in Revelation because "sabbaton" means Sabbath or Seventh Day.

John met his lord, The Lord...and Christ opened his understanding.

Isaiah 58:13
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,"


Disobedience is definitely not good. But studydudes private interpretation of Romans 14 makes Paul essentially saying 'don't preach repentance let people figure it out for themselves'

Also definitely not good, but apparently the length one will go to in order to justify themselves in contradicting Colossians 2:16

((?))
Replying to the Colossians 2 passage; I'm not sure if you know this (but most likely do) but there are italicized words added to the original King James version of scripture in an effort to aid in translation from original manuscripts to English. The reason why they're italicized is because the modern scribes purposely wanted to distinguish them as words not found in the original text.

https://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/italics.asp


So let me render Colossians 2:16 both ways to see what it says:

Colossians 2:16-17 (with italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ


Colossians 2:16-17 (without italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ

---

So the original text - without any italics or punctuation added to it - actually authorizes (only) members of the body of Christ to judge which foods to eat, feast days to celebrate and how to respect the Sabbath.

Paul was contending with the same issue revealed in Colossians as Christ was during his ministry: those who would force man-made religious traditions over the commandments of Yah. So he concluded that one should only let the body of Christ judge a person in HOW these things are to be observed.

You see, the backdrop - which isn't explained much in scripture - is the difference between a man-made religious tradition and Yah's commands. Most people today believed Judaism was the religion of the old testament (and the law of Yah through Moses) while Christianity is the religion of the new testament (and Christ's laws), when actually Judaism the religion of the Pharisees that ADDED ORDINANCES that TWISTED & PERVERTED the law of Yah in order to gain power over the people (placing further burdens on the people who trusted these men as their shepherds)...and Christ was restoring and returning the people to the commandments of Yah.

Judaism was NEVER given to Israel by Yah. Never. This relatively new set of Pharisaic traditions developed AFTER captivity and was taught to the people by scribes after their return to Judea, having elements of Yah's law in it but not being Yah's pure instructions anymore.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to or take away from the commands I give you but keep Yah's commands..."


Example of ordinances added by the Pharisees & Scribes:

- "Wash your hands and say the prayer of hand washing before your eat."

- "Do not carry anything in your hand on the Sabbath. Carrying is considered work"

- "Place a household item a Sabbath's journey in either direction and the boundary will be considered your home for Sabbath use."

- "Do not write two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Do not erase two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Dress the right side of your body first. Right arm; right leg."
etc...

These handwritten ordinances - not found in the "law of Moses" - placed heavy burdens on the people that the Pharisees themselves didn't follow, positioning themselves over the people. Christ contended against these man-made traditions and promoted a return to the commandments of Yah (a much lighter burden by comparison). And this same problem is exactly what Paul was addressing in Colossians 2.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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are you? don't know. do you teach salvation through Christ ? if so, then yes. if you teach that keeping the Law/Sabbath for salvation? then no.
I guess we'll know each other by our fruit then..
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I guess we'll know each other by our fruit then..
guess so, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, gentilness, faithfulness , self-control. fruits of the Sprit, which Christ followers are to manifest.

no Shabbat Salome in there, is there??
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
331
83
Disobedience is definitely not good. But studydudes private interpretation of Romans 14 makes Paul essentially saying 'don't preach repentance let people figure it out for themselves'

Also definitely not good, but apparently the length one will go to in order to justify themselves in contradicting Colossians 2:16

((?))
I don't get that from SM's post on rom 14. but who do you think Paul was speaking to in Col 2v16 ? It was those who were being converted from pagan believes and had turned to the Sabbath....they were the ones Paul was instructing ! christians seem to think Paul was teaching them sunday observance, because the RCC considers Paul THEIR Apostle and teach it all christians. This could not be further from the truth !!! Paul always followed CHRIST who also kept the SABBATH 1Cor 1v11.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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="posthuman, post: 3640807, member: 170505"]
IIRC you still seek to hold believers to dietary commandments and judge them over it, correct?

i believe you need to read Romans 14 more closely, without prejudice.

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself.
I think we should let God define what is good, Evil, clean, unclean, Holy, unholy. I don't judge folks for what they eat, rather, what they preach.
I also am persuaded that nothing is unclean of itself. Fornication for instance is unclean. But it was made unclean by the mouth of the Almighty God, whom I hold in great reverence. So both Paul and I agree, that there is ONE GOD, ONE LAWGIVER, and it is by His Command that something is evil or good, Holy or Unholy, Clean or unclean.​
Because nothing is unclean of itself.​
Because of your bias, you don't seem to believe this. I think Paul's point is not to judge the "Weak in Faith" that have "Repented", "turned to God" and are working to find what that "Perfect, acceptable will of God is".​
I think you should be careful not to erase the Volumes of scriptures which would define what is clean and what is unclean, what is Holy and what is Unholy, what is good and what is evil to preserve what you have deemed in your mind regarding these things. We should let God define these things, not the religious tradition we have instilled in our mind.​
The weak in Faith won't stay that way long is they "continue" in His Word.​
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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And yet in your Bible, and in mine, and in His, are the Commands He gave for us to Love our neighbor, and the Stranger as ourselves. Do you believe Jesus didn't know it was there?

And in your Bible and mine, Jesus Himself said that the Mainstream Preachers of their time, who had taught these Jews since their youth, the "Commandments of man" and had not taught this part of God's Commandments.

I think it is ridiculous the way you just erase scriptures which don't align with your ancient religious traditions.
That's bogus.

Acts 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Clearly Moses Law had been and still was being taught.

You're missing the amazing thing Christ did by saying "new commandment" for the sake of your own indefensible doctrine.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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I think it's interesting, and great, that you, Studyman, and I all liked that post!

what I heard in it was, keep all the laws, keep them all spiritually.
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD (Word which became Flesh) hath spoken it.

How is it lawful to work for money on His Sabbath?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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="posthuman, post: 3640807, member: 170505"]

I think we should let God define what is good, Evil, clean, unclean, Holy, unholy. I don't judge folks for what they eat, rather, what they preach.
I also am persuaded that nothing is unclean of itself. Fornication for instance is unclean. But it was made unclean by the mouth of the Almighty God, whom I hold in great reverence. So both Paul and I agree, that there is ONE GOD, ONE LAWGIVER, and it is by His Command that something is evil or good, Holy or Unholy, Clean or unclean.​
Because nothing is unclean of itself.​
Because of your bias, you don't seem to believe this. I think Paul's point is not to judge the "Weak in Faith" that have "Repented", "turned to God" and are working to find what that "Perfect, acceptable will of God is".​
I think you should be careful not to erase the Volumes of scriptures which would define what is clean and what is unclean, what is Holy and what is Unholy, what is good and what is evil to preserve what you have deemed in your mind regarding these things. We should let God define these things, not the religious tradition we have instilled in our mind.​
The weak in Faith won't stay that way long is they "continue" in His Word.​
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:20
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.


God says don't call common what He has called clean.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I don't get that from SM's post on rom 14. but who do you think Paul was speaking to in Col 2v16 ? It was those who were being converted from pagan believes and had turned to the Sabbath....they were the ones Paul was instructing ! christians seem to think Paul was teaching them sunday observance, because the RCC considers Paul THEIR Apostle and teach it all christians. This could not be further from the truth !!! Paul always followed CHRIST who also kept the SABBATH 1Cor 1v11.
so you think pagans turned to the Sabbath. wow. just wow. you need to repent of idolatry and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and stop idol worshiping a day.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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How is it lawful to for money on His Sabbath?
Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men

Matthew 5:41-42
And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Proverbs 3:27-28
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"--when you have it with you.

Ephesians 6:5-8
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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so you think pagans turned to the Sabbath. wow. just wow. you need to repent of idolatry and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and stop idol worshiping a day.
Maybe she means Jesus is the Sabbath? :)


But probably she doesn't.... :(
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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That's bogus.

Acts 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Clearly Moses Law had been and still was being taught.

You're missing the amazing thing Christ did by saying "new commandment" for the sake of your own indefensible doctrine.
But you still ignore the Biblical Truth that Jesus, as the Word, had already given the command to Love one another in Leviticus. How is it you get to erase, omit, and ignore scriptures to promote your religious traditions, and I have my own doctrine by posting what Jesus as the Word actually said.

You preach Moses was taught, but Jesus tells you"

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Why do you "omit" all these scriptures to promote your religion, then accuse me of having a personal doctrine because I refuse to erase these scriptures.

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

It was new to His Disciples. But Jesus has always taught we are to love one another. At least the Jesus of the Bible.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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No offense, but you're not using proper reasoning here. You're confusing translation with association to make your point. Of course "Sabbaton" isn't the word translated into "The Lord's Day" in the passage in Revelation because "sabbaton" means Sabbath or Seventh Day.

John met his lord, The Lord...and Christ opened his understanding.

Isaiah 58:13
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,"




Replying to the Colossians 2 passage; I'm not sure if you know this (but most likely do) but there are italicized words added to the original King James version of scripture in an effort to aid in translation from original manuscripts to English. The reason why they're italicized is because the modern scribes purposely wanted to distinguish them as words not found in the original text.

https://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/italics.asp


So let me render Colossians 2:16 both ways to see what it says:

Colossians 2:16-17 (with italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ


Colossians 2:16-17 (without italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ

---

So the original text - without any italics or punctuation added to it - actually authorizes (only) members of the body of Christ to judge which foods to eat, feast days to celebrate and how to respect the Sabbath.

Paul was contending with the same issue revealed in Colossians as Christ was during his ministry: those who would force man-made religious traditions over the commandments of Yah. So he concluded that one should only let the body of Christ judge a person in HOW these things are to be observed.

You see, the backdrop - which isn't explained much in scripture - is the difference between a man-made religious tradition and Yah's commands. Most people today believed Judaism was the religion of the old testament (and the law of Yah through Moses) while Christianity is the religion of the new testament (and Christ's laws), when actually Judaism the religion of the Pharisees that ADDED ORDINANCES that TWISTED & PERVERTED the law of Yah in order to gain power over the people (placing further burdens on the people who trusted these men as their shepherds)...and Christ was restoring and returning the people to the commandments of Yah.

Judaism was NEVER given to Israel by Yah. Never. This relatively new set of Pharisaic traditions developed AFTER captivity and was taught to the people by scribes after their return to Judea, having elements of Yah's law in it but not being Yah's pure instructions anymore.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to or take away from the commands I give you but keep Yah's commands..."


Example of ordinances added by the Pharisees & Scribes:

- "Wash your hands and say the prayer of hand washing before your eat."

- "Do not carry anything in your hand on the Sabbath. Carrying is considered work"

- "Place a household item a Sabbath's journey in either direction and the boundary will be considered your home for Sabbath use."

- "Do not write two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Do not erase two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Dress the right side of your body first. Right arm; right leg."
etc...

These handwritten ordinances - not found in the "law of Moses" - placed heavy burdens on the people that the Pharisees themselves didn't follow, positioning themselves over the people. Christ contended against these man-made traditions and promoted a return to the commandments of Yah (a much lighter burden by comparison). And this same problem is exactly what Paul was addressing in Colossians 2.
ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2&version=SBLGNT


in my opinion, you are making too much of the missing is.


English relies heavily on word order to show how words function in a sentence. but Greek relies heavily on prefixes and suffixes.


As a result, the word is is often not written, because it is not needed. it is up to the reader to supply it as they read along.


Speaking as someone who reads Greek, not well but enough, I would have to go with the idea that the passage is saying that some things are a shadow but the substance is Christ.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Is. 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD (Word which became Flesh) hath spoken it.

Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men

Matthew 5:41-42
And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Proverbs 3:27-28
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"--when you have it with you.

Ephesians 6:5-8
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

Is. 56:
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Matt. 12:11
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Every scripture says the same thing.