Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

[posthuman]

But you still ignore the Biblical Truth that Jesus, as the Word, had already given the command to Love one another in Leviticus. How is it you get to erase, omit, and ignore scriptures to promote your religious traditions, and I have my own doctrine by posting what Jesus as the Word actually said.

You preach Moses was taught, but Jesus tells you"

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Why do you "omit" all these scriptures to promote your religion, then accuse me of having a personal doctrine because I refuse to erase these scriptures.

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

It was new to His Disciples. But Jesus has always taught we are to love one another. At least the Jesus of the Bible.

Dude.
Quit lying about me.
It doesn't fix your problems.

I quoted Leviticus 19:18. I don't ignore it.
Jesus says "a new commandment"

The Bible says Moses has been taught all over and read every sabbath day.
So you're absolutely in error to claim the Law was never taught to Christ's apostles.

You got problems with your doctrines, and slandering the people pointing them out doesn't fix it. It just makes you look like an ass.

Telling you for your own sake.

 

[Dan_473]

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD (Word which became Flesh) hath spoken it.

How is it lawful to work for money on His Sabbath?

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talked about considering the birds of the air. They don't have any barns to store food in, they gather food everyday, that is to say God feeds them everyday.

Now, if a Christian is working on the Sabbath, or any day, in order to earn money to spend it on their own lusts, then they are not living a good way.

Am I using one scripture to make void another? Not at all, I'm showing how the Christian keep the Sabbath holy, that is to say by considering the birds and the lilies.

 

[posthuman]

No offense, but you're not using proper reasoning here. You're confusing translation with association to make your point. Of course "Sabbaton" isn't the word translated into "The Lord's Day" in the passage in Revelation because "sabbaton" means Sabbath or Seventh Day.

John met his lord, The Lord...and Christ opened his understanding.

Isaiah 58:13
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,"




Replying to the Colossians 2 passage; I'm not sure if you know this (but most likely do) but there are italicized words added to the original King James version of scripture in an effort to aid in translation from original manuscripts to English. The reason why they're italicized is because the modern scribes purposely wanted to distinguish them as words not found in the original text.

https://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/italics.asp


So let me render Colossians 2:16 both ways to see what it says:

Colossians 2:16-17 (with italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ


Colossians 2:16-17 (without italics)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ

---

So the original text - without any italics or punctuation added to it - actually authorizes (only) members of the body of Christ to judge which foods to eat, feast days to celebrate and how to respect the Sabbath.

Paul was contending with the same issue revealed in Colossians as Christ was during his ministry: those who would force man-made religious traditions over the commandments of Yah. So he concluded that one should only let the body of Christ judge a person in HOW these things are to be observed.

You see, the backdrop - which isn't explained much in scripture - is the difference between a man-made religious tradition and Yah's commands. Most people today believed Judaism was the religion of the old testament (and the law of Yah through Moses) while Christianity is the religion of the new testament (and Christ's laws), when actually Judaism the religion of the Pharisees that ADDED ORDINANCES that TWISTED & PERVERTED the law of Yah in order to gain power over the people (placing further burdens on the people who trusted these men as their shepherds)...and Christ was restoring and returning the people to the commandments of Yah.

Judaism was NEVER given to Israel by Yah. Never. This relatively new set of Pharisaic traditions developed AFTER captivity and was taught to the people by scribes after their return to Judea, having elements of Yah's law in it but not being Yah's pure instructions anymore.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to or take away from the commands I give you but keep Yah's commands..."


Example of ordinances added by the Pharisees & Scribes:

- "Wash your hands and say the prayer of hand washing before your eat."

- "Do not carry anything in your hand on the Sabbath. Carrying is considered work"

- "Place a household item a Sabbath's journey in either direction and the boundary will be considered your home for Sabbath use."

- "Do not write two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Do not erase two or more letters on Sabbath."

- "Dress the right side of your body first. Right arm; right leg."
etc...

These handwritten ordinances - not found in the "law of Moses" - placed heavy burdens on the people that the Pharisees themselves didn't follow, positioning themselves over the people. Christ contended against these man-made traditions and promoted a return to the commandments of Yah (a much lighter burden by comparison). And this same problem is exactly what Paul was addressing in Colossians 2.

Yeah try putting that in the context of the whole chapter - particularly in the wherefore that precedes the therefore. Try making the epistle to the Galatians about Paul urging the Gentile believers to keep Moses Law. Try making Romans 6-7 say we've died with Christ in order to be held under judgement by the Law, which is the power of sin.

We already have a 600 page thread wherein your interpretation was repeatedly and thoroughly debunked and discredited. It doesn't fit at all.

 

[Studyman]

ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2&version=SBLGNT


in my opinion, you are making too much of the missing is.


English relies heavily on word order to show how words function in a sentence. but Greek relies heavily on prefixes and suffixes.


As a result, the word is is often not written, because it is not needed. it is up to the reader to supply it as they read along.


Speaking as someone who reads Greek, not well but enough, I would have to go with the idea that the passage is saying that some things are a shadow but the substance is Christ.

It might be prudent to include that man made doctrines and traditions are neither a shadow of things to come, nor are they the substance of Christ. And there are many things that are "still to come" in which God created a Shadow to keep us in mind, as were the intent of the Levitical Priesthood which Jesus has since fulfilled. For this reason I believe Jesus included in His Holy Instructions "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" because the substance it is a shadow of has not yet been fulfilled.

 

[posthuman]

Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" because the substance it is a shadow of has not yet been fulfilled.

Previously discussed; please see post #543

 

[posthuman]

Have faith


Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

We are seated with Him even now.

Take the lowest chair

 

[Blik]

are you? don't know. do you teach salvation through Christ ? if so, then yes. if you teach that keeping the Law/Sabbath for salvation? then no.

All who don't want to follow the Lord come up with this same old refrain--'keeping the law for salvation". I guess they think that when we agree it won't save, it is faith that saves, then we will fall in with THEIR refrain to ignore God except ask Him for His free gift of salvation. After you get that from the Lord it is best to ignore Him and not accept His ways in your life is what you all seem to decide is the way to live.

Orthodox Jews deny Christ, yet they accept the code God tells us to live by. God blesses them with many more blessings than gentiles--in family, wealth, education and honors. Gentiles say no to God's ways time after time. We have salvation, and what a blessing that is, but we could have salvation and blessings, too if we weren't so dedicated to the world and accepted God's way in our life.

But repeating over and over that obedience won't save so ignore God just isn't going to cut it. It doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Studyman]

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talked about considering the birds of the air. They don't have any barns to store food in, they gather food everyday, that is to say God feeds them everyday.

Now, if a Christian is working on the Sabbath, or any day, in order to earn money to spend it on their own lusts, then they are not living a good way.

Am I using one scripture to make void another? Not at all, I'm showing how the Christian keep the Sabbath holy, that is to say by considering the birds and the lilies.

Yes, I agree it is a sin to work for money on the Sabbath. Not sure working during the week to buy a boat so I can enjoy my passion of fishing is a sin though.

I do agree that centering on God's Creation and His Word's when we Honor His Holy Sabbath is Lawful.

 

[Studyman]

Dude.
Quit lying about me.
It doesn't fix your problems.

I quoted Leviticus 19:18. I don't ignore it.
Jesus says "a new commandment"

The Bible says Moses has been taught all over and read every sabbath day.
So you're absolutely in error to claim the Law was never taught to Christ's apostles.

You got problems with your doctrines, and slandering the people pointing them out doesn't fix it. It just makes you look like an ass.

Telling you for your own sake.

Lev. 19:
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

John 13:
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[posthuman]

Lev. 19:
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

John 13:
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Yes. As I already said.

He says a new commandment.
Why?
What is new about it?

 

[Dan_473]

It might be prudent to include that man made doctrines and traditions are neither a shadow of things to come, nor are they the substance of Christ. And there are many things that are "still to come" in which God created a Shadow to keep us in mind, as were the intent of the Levitical Priesthood which Jesus has since fulfilled. For this reason I believe Jesus included in His Holy Instructions "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" because the substance it is a shadow of has not yet been fulfilled.

Yes it is good to keep the Sabbath day holy. It is good to keep every day holy.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, I agree it is a sin to work for money on the Sabbath. Not sure working during the week to buy a boat so I can enjoy my passion of fishing is a sin though.

I do agree that centering on God's Creation and His Word's when we Honor His Holy Sabbath is Lawful.

I didn't say it was wrong to work to earn money, but wrong to earn money to spend it on their own lusts.

if your conscience is clear about working to earn money to buy a boat for yourself, then go ahead and do it.

Something to ponder
is it right for a Christian to own a boat for their own pleasure when there are Christian brothers and sisters who don't have a Bible or clean drinking water.

A while back I was playing keyboard in the praise band at church. they wanted to buy a special unit that cost about $700 so I could hear everything through headphones, even though I was having no trouble hearing as the situation presently was.

At the same time a missionary based out of that same church was trying to collect money, pennies and loose change really, in order to buy Bibles for the students at the school in Haiti where she ministered. the Bibles cost $1 each.

that really hit me, 700 bucks for a toy or 700 Bibles for Haitians?

 

[Yahshua]

ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2&version=SBLGNT


in my opinion, you are making too much of the missing is.


English relies heavily on word order to show how words function in a sentence. but Greek relies heavily on prefixes and suffixes.


As a result, the word is is often not written, because it is not needed. it is up to the reader to supply it as they read along.


Speaking as someone who reads Greek, not well but enough, I would have to go with the idea that the passage is saying that some things are a shadow but the substance is Christ.

"Is" is just a little leaven that ruins the bread Dan...

Christ said beware of the leaven. Just a little is needed.

Yeah try putting that in the context of the whole chapter - particularly in the wherefore that precedes the therefore. Try making the epistle to the Galatians about Paul urging the Gentile believers to keep Moses Law. Try making Romans 6-7 say we've died with Christ in order to be held under judgement by the Law, which is the power of sin.

We already have a 600 page thread wherein your interpretation was repeatedly and thoroughly debunked and discredited. It doesn't fit at all.

You do realize Paul's letter to the Colossians wasn't his letter to the Galatians wasn't his letter to the Romans right? Paul wasn't a one trick pony. He addressed many different issues with different groups. I think you're making hasty generalizations.

The context at the beginning of Colossians 2 helps us to understand the point Paul is making at the end of it. It was concerning others leading believers into additional man-made rules. It's literally the official subheading of several bible translations: "Freedom From Human Rules". The dichotomy Paul draws is between "man-made rules" and "what the believer has been taught of the faith".


Colossians 2:6
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

----

This is the context and issue. At no time in this passage is the problem contention with the law of Moses, neither covertly or overtly, but rather with:

- Philosophy
- Vain Deceit
- Traditions of men (particularly held in contrast to God's commands in Mark 7:13; Matt 15:6-9)
- Rudiments of the world (held as the object in which to overcome in John 16:33)

...That would draw the believer from what they've been taught.

THEREFORE, the let no man (using philosophy, vain deceit, traditions of men, or rudiments of the world) judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ (WHEREFORE you were taught).


Paul continues with a more specific example...

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

- Angel worship is nowhere in the Law of Moses, but was a tradition of men.


20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?


The section in parentheses is a parenthetical break providing further examples to support the point Paul is making. The complete object of the thought is:

- "Ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men"

There are indeed ordinances in The Law of Moses but they're not "of men" but "of Yah".

Paul even concludes the chapter saying that the man-made traditions have a show of wisdom but still satisfy the flesh. The flesh is at enmity with God's Law so following God's law wouldn't satisfy the flesh right? Thus this chapter doesn't take issue with the law of Moses but with traditions twisting and perverting what they've been taught.

 

[glf1]

If anyone can show me in scripture where God says its OK for me to worship him anyway I want to then I can accept that Easter is OK.

Hey Jeremiah...
Tit 1:18 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
Rom 14:5 "One man estemeeth one day above another: another man esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to the God and the Father by him."
But if you are unable to be fully persuaded in your mind or understanding; then forgo the occasion; because:
Rom 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith, is sin."

 

[Blik]

Yes it is good to keep the Sabbath day holy. It is good to keep every day holy.

That old saying, that every day should be treated the same just does not stand up to scripture at all. God worked six days and rested on the seventh and blessed this day for our sakes telling us to follow His example and rest from our labors on this day.

I found 18 scriptures telling us that God's laws are for both the natural born Jew and the stronger among them. God made it clear that He is the same God for all people.

 

[gb9]

That old saying, that every day should be treated the same just does not stand up to scripture at all. God worked six days and rested on the seventh and blessed this day for our sakes telling us to follow His example and rest from our labors on this day.

I found 18 scriptures telling us that God's laws are for both the natural born Jew and the stronger among them. God made it clear that He is the same God for all people.

are you among them? are you on that piece of land? if not, the Law of Moses was not given to you.

as a response to something you said yesterday, I have never spoken against obedience. I will speak against anyone saying that keeping the Law is required for salvation. because that is wrong.

I will take you point by point and show you how wrong you are , if you want. be glad to.

we are saved by grace through faith, for good works.

anyone who tries to change that is wrong. plain and simple.

 

[posthuman]

Paul wasn't a one trick pony.

One gospel and only one gospel


Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!

 

[Dan_473]

"Is" is just a little leaven that ruins the bread Dan...

Christ said beware of the leaven. Just a little is needed.




You do realize Paul's letter to the Colossians wasn't his letter to the Galatians wasn't his letter to the Romans right? Paul wasn't a one trick pony. He addressed many different issues with different groups. I think you're making hasty generalizations.

The context at the beginning of Colossians 2 helps us to understand the point Paul is making at the end of it. It was concerning others leading believers into additional man-made rules. It's literally the official subheading of several bible translations: "Freedom From Human Rules". The dichotomy Paul draws is between "man-made rules" and "what the believer has been taught of the faith".


Colossians 2:6
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

----

This is the context and issue. At no time in this passage is the problem contention with the law of Moses, neither covertly or overtly, but rather with:

- Philosophy
- Vain Deceit
- Traditions of men (particularly held in contrast to God's commands in Mark 7:13; Matt 15:6-9)
- Rudiments of the world (held as the object in which to overcome in John 16:33)

...That would draw the believer from what they've been taught.

THEREFORE, the let no man (using philosophy, vain deceit, traditions of men, or rudiments of the world) judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holiday or of the new moon or of the sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ (WHEREFORE you were taught).


Paul continues with a more specific example...

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

- Angel worship is nowhere in the Law of Moses, but was a tradition of men.


20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?


The section in parentheses is a parenthetical break providing further examples to support the point Paul is making. The complete object of the thought is:

- "Ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men"

There are indeed ordinances in The Law of Moses but they're not "of men" but "of Yah".

Paul even concludes the chapter saying that the man-made traditions have a show of wisdom but still satisfy the flesh. The flesh is at enmity with God's Law so following God's law wouldn't satisfy the flesh right? Thus this chapter doesn't take issue with the law of Moses but with traditions twisting and perverting what they've been taught.

The word is isn't Leaven, it's good translation technique. If a person wishes to deal only with what is in the ancient Greek manuscripts, then they should get rid of all the punctuation in their New Testament, since it is not present in the original. It's all translator's choice.

 

[Dan_473]

That old saying, that every day should be treated the same just does not stand up to scripture at all. God worked six days and rested on the seventh and blessed this day for our sakes telling us to follow His example and rest from our labors on this day.

I found 18 scriptures telling us that God's laws are for both the natural born Jew and the stronger among them. God made it clear that He is the same God for all people.

Keeping every day holy holds up very well in Scripture. We are bought with a price, We Are Holy to the Lord.
Which is the day when we work for ourselves?

 

[posthuman]

Colossians 2:6
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

----

This is the context and issue.

you've omitted 7 verses between here and Col. 2:16 -- so no, that's not 'the context' -- it's only part of the introduction to it, and it's a whole paragraph away.

the things you left out, which things are what is actually adjacent to the passage, are profoundly important things which utterly demolish your argument -- they are the basis of the gospel of Christ crucified and risen:

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental principles of this world rather than on Christ.​

​

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through your faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.​

​

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; He has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.​

​

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.​

​

• Christ is the fullness of God enfleshed
• in Him you also have been made complete
• He is over all other powers - nothing has authority over Him
• He circumcised you with His own hand - not any human hand
• Your entire flesh has been put off in Him
• You are buried with Him
• You are raised with Him
• This was accomplished through your belief in His working
• He made you alive while you were dead in uncircumcision, disobedience and trespass
• He has forgiven all your sin
• He cancelled all debt to the Law, nailing it to the cross
• He disarmed and triumphed over all other power and authority over you

"Therefore"

because of these reasons in bullet-point above, do not let anyone judge you over diet, feasts, rosh chodesh or sabbath.
those things are shadows; the body, Christ.

those bullet-point facts do not justify believers judging other believers over diet.
they do not justify believers -- or anyone else -- judging believers over feasts.
over new moon festivals.
over sabbaths.

if you've got a doctrine that says believers should be judging other believers over sabbath, based on this verse, then you've either got Paul preaching different gospels to different churches, or you've got an enormous problem with Romans 14 because your doctrine inescapably also says we should be judging one another over food and drink.

and why are you not keeping Rosh Chodesh and equally judging believers over it ??