Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
i went to this one church drive through thing and they had people singing in a band wearing santa hats, christmas trees and lights all inside and then right next to it a manger scene.

Thought they didnt mix the two up together in the same diorama. I figure they just use it to pull ppl in to the nativity story.

My old friend from bible study had decorated her house with tinsel and baubles etc while I hadnt done anything, The only thing I put up (and I have all year round) in my library is nativity scene. Oh I did put up a sign in the window saying 'seasons greetings' though.

I do have a box of christmas books I keep separate from the rest of the collection, most of which are pagan.

But yesterday I noticed one boy came into the library and was immediately attracted to the nativity story cos it had a picture of baby Jesus on the cover of the picture book and he wanted to borow it. I had only just put it on the display stand and his teacher aide was like no we cant borrow but I let him borrow it.

and it was out of all the christmas books (santas, reindeers, trees, gifts) he wanted to read that one because he recognised Jesus.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
Actually the only children who've borrowed anything from the library in December this year were ones who wanted Bible stories.

And Im finding I often ' lose' Bible stories and have to keep replacing them. Its encouraging cos kids these days want to find out all about God. They get sick of the commericalism and understand its not good. espcially the pressure on their parents to provide all the goodies.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
No ho ho: Italian church apologises over bishop’s claim about Santa Claus
Antonio Stagliano was trying to focus on the story of Saint Nicholas when he told children Santa did not exist, says church in Sicily

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ologises-over-bishops-claim-about-santa-claus

“We certainly must not demolish the imagination of children, but draw good examples from it that are positive for life,” he continued. “So Santa Claus is an effective image to convey the importance of giving, generosity, sharing. But when this image loses its meaning, you see Santa Claus aka consumerism, the desire to own, buy, buy and buy again, then you have to revalue it by giving it a new meaning.”

This is the apostasy
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113

Please notice how Satan is dressed as he comes in this midnight sleigh.
 
S

SophieT

Guest

Please notice how Satan is dressed as he comes in this midnight sleigh.
not Dana again

home of yet another fake self made prophet whose words do not come true

you seem to specialize in these fake prophet types

birds of a feather I guess.....


let's make sure we are all informed about Dana Coverstone
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
Charge to the Believers

Jude 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Building What? Building ourselves? This sounds a whole lot like Paul's word about "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and Paul's word about building with gold, silver and precious stones. It also sounds like the 9 steps given by Peter: giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. How do you build up your faith? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Get into the word of God. This is our responsibility.

Praying we pray in the Holy spirit.

Keeping We are also charged to "keep yourselves in the Love of God. This means to keep us in the place where we can enjoy the Father's love. God will not stop loving us, the issue is are we in the place where we can enjoy that love. Jn 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Looking for This word is translated as both looking for and waiting for.

Are you listening?

There is a progression here from Faith to love to hope. Now let's consider this in light of this thread on Christmas. You can buy a gift or you can make one. You can act out of prayer before the Lord on what would be best or you can simply go to a store and say I have so much money to spend, that looks good. You can keep yourself in the love of God or like the prodigal son you can cash in your chips and go to the parties and waste your inheritance. You can spend the evening "looking for" and waiting for the blessed appearance of our savior or you can become a scoffer comparing the Lord's coming to the stories told to children about Santa.

Jude 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

The exhortation is for us to grow and there needs to be a response from us to be a witness, that is our sacred duty. Jude tells us to have compassionate understanding on those who have sincere doubts. Just because someone doesn't believe your word does not make them an apostate, they can have sincere doubts. This is the last NT mention of being merciful. We are at the door of the Lord's coming back, at the very last moment there will still be those who doubt and need our mercy. The first mention of mercy is "blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy". The first mention of doubt in the NT was when Peter was sinking in the sea. Another way to look at what Jude is saying is "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear".

Singing a love song

Mercy mixed with fear -- one idea is you can see that this one is in danger of eternal damnation, another way to look at this is the way in which Lot was saved. Think about witnessing in the family -- interceding like Abraham. Another understanding is that pulling someone out of the fire could put you into a situation where you get pulled in rather than them getting pulled out. I don't think there is a right answer, I think we stay open to the Lord and He could use this word in many different ways. Another interpretation is don't be tempted to tone down the gospel. Yes we must be merciful but at the same time we need to be fearful of the Lord that we share the full counsel of God and provide a very clear warning concerning sin. We can see these various interpretations in the story of Christmas. Some embrace the practice thinking they could use it for the gospel and instead got pulled down. Some are warning of eternal damnation, idol worship, and the dangers. Others are tempted to temper their message, let's not offend anyone.

The assurance of our Savior

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Know the one in whom we have put our trust. Finish the race strong! The Lord will be glorified. The reason Jude has shared this epistle is so that we would have great joy at the Lord's return. It is not good enough to believe in God, the Satanists do that, you have to believe in God our Savior. We do not get to verse 25 without the cross of Christ. Verse 25 reminds us of Hebrews 1:3. We can all see the hand of Paul in the book of Hebrews, I have wondered if James also worked on it, and now perhaps even Jude had a hand in it. What does verse 25 mean? It means that if we are raptured to the presence of the Lord our savior we will be dancing with great joy! The glory, the majesty, the power, the authority, it will be a fantastic wedding feast!

Make sure that Satan doesn't trick you into exchanging your inheritance for a bowl of soup and a lie.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
Wait, what, this is real?


You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is comin' to town, gather 'round

He's making a list
And checking it twice;
He's gonna find out who's naughty and nice
Santa Claus is comin' to town

(He sees you when you're sleeping)
(He knows when you're awake)
He knows if you've been bad or good
{So be good for goodness sake}!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
The bottom line is---what images do the words "Christmas" and "Easter" bring to mind? Does the word Christmas mean Christ or presents for family and decorations? Does the word Easter bring up images of blood given for our souls or does it bring up pictures of rabbits, eggs, and fancy hats?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
Idols (1)

Romans 2:22 thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?

The church has robbed pagan practices from temples. The Christmas tree was robbed from an idol temple. The Germans used it in the worship to Odin and the Babylonians used it in their worship to Baal.

1Corinthians 5:10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.

It is not possible to avoid all Christmas trees and other items of pagan worship. We live in the world and are surrounded by this. You don’t need to leave a store because they have a Christmas tree or leave your company party because they have a Christmas tree. No, if someone claims to be a brother or sister and is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard or an extortioner. These are all serious issues. This does not mean that a fornicator cannot get saved, they can. The charge is not whether or not someone has sinned and repented of that sin, the charge is about someone who thinks they can openly live in sin while also claiming to be a Christian. Everyone is probably familiar with the Pedophile priests in the Catholic church, that represents about 5% of the priests. However, 50% of priests engage in consensual sex with adults. They are fornicators. The only reason the Pedophile priests were able to flourish in the Catholic church was because of the fornicating priests. If they exposed these 5% they in turn might expose the 50%. This is why Paul says to be very strict. Then what happens to those people who know about the Priests who are fornicators? No wonder they see the Church as a bunch of self righteous hypocrites condemning others for the things that they themselves do.

1Corinthians 8:8 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.

We need to come to this topic with love and with the intention of building one another up. Idol worship involves making a sacrifice to an idol. Some will claim that all the Christmas decorations are just that, decorations. The same thing with the Easter celebration, just fun and games. I would ask if you are “making a sacrifice to that idol”? Simply a question to take to the Lord.

4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

It is impossible to be in this world and not be surrounded by idols. You will go to a restaurant, you will go to a store, your company, even the things people wear. We do not have to walk around like some looney tunes every time we see an idol. These things are meaningless. As a teacher we are required to decorate our rooms for holidays. I would never put up a Christmas tree nor would I mention Santa Claus in my decorations. However, another teacher might, I just ignore that. It is nothing.

7 Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge: but some, being used until now to the idol, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God: neither, if we eat not, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better. 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak. 10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.

These verses are completely misquoted by many Christians. If you go to a restaurant that has a little idol up that is an offering to their God, typical in Asian restaurants, that is eating meat in an idol temple. This does not mean you went to a Buddhist temple for lunch. In the US this could also refer to going to a football game or a baseball game. Now there are many people who get invited to these games for work or some other reason. You don’t have to respond “O no, I am a Christian, I would never go to that idol temple”. However, there are others who have season tickets, they fill up their home with all kinds of junk celebrating their favorite team or player. Buying those things is what is known as “sacrificing to an idol”. So if a brother or sister is offended that you are going to the game you simply say fine, if this stumbles you I won’t go ever again. That is evidence that you are not worshiping this thing as an idol because you are happy to cut it completely out of your life for the sake of your brother’s conscience. However, many Christians apply this to their home. That does not make sense. If a believer sees that your home is set up as an idol temple you can’t make some claim that this means nothing to you. You have already sacrificed to this idol.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
Idols (2)

1Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Such a strange definition for idol worship. They built a bronze calf, they said this is your God that brought you out of Egypt, they had a big feast and they they rose up to “play”. From ancient Jewish texts it seems this referred to a big party that got out of hand. From descriptions I have heard it was every bit as bad as any Christmas party that got out of hand. Idolatry will go hand in hand with fornication. But look how innocent the description is. You have to compare this with the Lord’s table. We sit down to eat and drink the body and blood of the Lord Jesus and then we rise up to worship Him. There is a contrast here. No one rises up to worship the Lord Jesus during idol worship.

1Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ? 17 seeing that we, who are many, are one bread, one body: for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: have not they that eat the sacrifices communion with the altar? 19 What say I then? that a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have communion with demons. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons: ye cannot partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. Many misquote the verse about those who are weak in the faith thinking that the Christians who don’t bring the pagan idols into their house are the ones who are weak in the faith. But that doesn’t make sense. You know that this practice offends your brothers and sisters, you know that Paul said that if that were the case he wouldn’t eat meat again, and yet you use this as some kind of justification? You are condemned twice over. You claim you are strong in the faith yet you refuse to behave like one who is strong in the faith.

1Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might be led.

A christmas tree is a dumb idol. All of the spiritual gifts are speaking gifts. What do you want, spiritual gifts or gifts from Santa? Be careful you don’t exchange your inheritance with God for a bunch of junk from the Mall.

2Corinthians 6:14 Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, 18 And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

We use this verse to talk about marriage and about our job. But it also refers to the church marrying the world. According to Ephesians the church is the Temple of God. Pergamus was the church that married the world, and historically it refers to the church that adopted these pagan practices like Christmas and Easter.

Revelation 2:But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
113
77
If we follow the view regarding Christmas Trees as some regard them then what other practices do we have to stop participating in? There are Pagan beliefs associating the deaths of
certain Gods and Heroes dying and rising from the dead. Does that mean we should stop
celebrating Christs resurrection?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
If we follow the view regarding Christmas Trees as some regard them then what other practices do we have to stop participating in? There are Pagan beliefs associating the deaths of
certain Gods and Heroes dying and rising from the dead. Does that mean we should stop
celebrating Christs resurrection?
My feeling is so what. I don't worship a Christmas tree, telling me it is an idol is great, that means I don't need to get one, don't have to go through all that trouble. If this is a very big deal to people to get rid of then I have to ask why these things mean so much to you?

Yes, we are surrounded by idols. The NFL can be an idol, there are people who are full on into the worship of that idol. There are other people who think it is great if it gets turned off. I grew up as a kid loving football, don't watch it anymore and haven't for many years. Same thing with NBA, and rock concerts. Money is an idol. Cars can be idols.

We are told to guard ourselves from idols.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
A little Christmas cheer

 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
493
219
43
PDX

Goes over Jeremiah 10 and the history of Babylon
I was taught that the Christmas Tree came from Norse tradition. I don't worry about it much. It is hard to confuse Jesus with the tree.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
It has been amazing to me that everyone has a preconceived notion about what a thread concerning a Christmas tree as a vestige of Babylonian worship is about. I have yet to see one post actually responding to the focus of this thread, though to be fair they are responding to the video which was provided in response to various attacks.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
Its because your thread topic is unclear.

If you said its related to idolatry rather than 'babylonian worship' people would understand. The Babylonians didnt really worship trees. They may have made some idols out of wood but for the most part they made them out of bronze, iron, silver and gold. Their idols were statues of Marduk and Baal.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113
Its because your thread topic is unclear.

If you said its related to idolatry rather than 'babylonian worship' people would understand. The Babylonians didnt really worship trees. They may have made some idols out of wood but for the most part they made them out of bronze, iron, silver and gold. Their idols were statues of Marduk and Baal.
The thread is not related to either idolatry or Babylonian worship. This is my point, it is like talking to a brick wall. I am telling you something you have never heard of before so it simply does not compute.

Paul said in Colossians that festivals are a shadow of things to come. We understood that to mean the Jewish festivals like Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Pentecost, etc.

The question I am asking is what about Christmas? Is Christmas a shadow of things to come and if so what? It seems to me that it is clearly a picture of a thief (Satan) coming in the night and exchanging the glory of the one true God for some junk from the Mall. That sounds like both the rapture and the judgement on the apostasy.

It appears that at the same time as the rapture Satan is cast to the Earth and it is the birth of the antichrist. How appropriate for that to happen on the day the Babylonians celebrate the birth of their God, a pseudo christ.

We are all familiar with the word of Paul that when they say Peace and Security then sudden destruction comes upon them. The whole world said Peace and Security when the USSR collapsed on December 25, 1991. This December is the 30th anniversary. It is "3 days" later or in this case 3 decades later. How appropriate if the sudden destruction comes on this day as well.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,697
6,733
113

Sol Invictus --
Who Is Sol Invictus?
The god of the Unconquered Sun, Sol Invictus, was the official sun god of the later Empire of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian reintroduced the sun god and cult in 274 AD. The Emperor Constantine, also known as Constantine the Great, made the practice of Christianity legal in Rome, but continued to have his coins inscribed with the words, “Sol Invicto Comiti”, which means Committed to the Invincible Sun.

The birthday of the unconquered sun was celebrated at the Roman festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25, and it is often theorized that Constantine had a hand in selecting this day as the celebration date of the birth of Christ as well.


https://mythology.net/roman/roman-gods/sol-invictus/