Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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Mar 12, 2014
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Let me repeat a bit of what I wrote in post #47, page 3.

THE WORD PSALMOIS, MEANS PLAY WITH INSTRUMENTS IN THE GREEK!



ONE MORE TIME!

THE WORD PSALMOIS, MEANS PLAY WITH INSTRUMENTS IN THE GREEK!

This is not an argument about theology. The GREEK SETTLES it! If you choose to worship without instruments, I have no problem. If you come on here and tell me I am going to hell because I not only worship with instruments, but play instruments in the worship band in the church I attend, I am going to tell you to go back, research the truth.

Do not listen to your denomination because it is WRONG.....

THE WORD PSALMOIS, MEANS PLAY WITH INSTRUMENTS IN THE GREEK!

And Shava, you can quote all the sources in the world you want to justify your beliefs, it still doesn't change the meaning of the word that Paul purposely used.

As far as a cult, Elizabeth goes to your denomination, and seems quite fine with making a personal choice. Her church does not appear to be a cult. The reason YOU personally are in a cult, is because you force others to believe your warped misinterpretation of the Bible, on an issue which is not essential one with regards to salvation, but you personally have made it one!

Salvation:

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

When you make a choice to make a participle a command, when the only command in the passage is "dwell" you have become a legalist and a cultist. Because you do not know the Greek language. And neither does the church YOU personally attend.
Language Authorities

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901) was Professor of New Testament Criticism and Interpretation at the Divinity School of Harvard University. He also served on the revision committee that produced the American Standard Version of the New Testament.
In 1885 A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament was published, which reflected Thayer’s translation, revision, and enlargement of an earlier work involving the labors of C.G. Wilke and C.L.W. Grimm. In its day, Thayer’s work was the finest lexicon available, and still is of considerable value.

In discussing psallo, after commenting upon the word’s use in classical Greek, and in the Septuagint, he notes that “in the N.T. [psallo signifies] to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song” (p. 675).

The first edition of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Wordswas issued in 1940 in four volumes. In 1952 a one-volume edition was published. F.F. Bruce, Head of the Department of Biblical History and Literature at the University of Sheffield, wrote the Foreword for that production. Therein, Prof. Bruce praised Vine’s work. He stated that the “Greek scholarship was wide, accurate and up-to-date.” He noted that the author had a “thorough mastery of the classical idiom,” a “close acquaintance with the Hellenistic vernacular,” and an awareness of the influence of the Septuagint upon the New Testament.

In his popular work, Vine, in commenting upon psallo (under “Melody”), notes the classical sense, the Septuagint usage, and then says: “in the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise” (1997, p. 730).

In another book, Vine explained the matter more fully.
“The word psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, or to sing with the accompaniment of a harp. Later, however, and in the New Testament, it came to signify simply to praise without the accompaniment of an instrument” (1951, p. 191 – emp. added).
In 1964. the prestigious Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (edited by Kittel, Friedrich, and Bromiley) issued from the press. The article which dealt withpsallo was written by Gerhard Delling. Relative to Ephesians 5:19, Delling contended that the literal use of psallo, as “found in the LXX, is now employed figuratively” (Kittel, et al., p. 499).

In an abridgement of this work, published in 1985, Bromiley expressed it this way: “psallontes does not now denote literally playing on a stringed instrument” (p. 1226).


In the revised edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, David Howard of Bethel Theological Seminary, commented upon psallo.


“Psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument; in the LXX it generally translates zimmer and ngn. In the New Testament it refers to singing God’s praises (not necessarily accompanied by strings)” (p. 314).


In the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Balz and Schneider write: “In the NT psallo always refers to a song of praise to God” (p. 495).


In his popular work, Word Meanings in the New Testament, Ralph Earle comments on psallo in Ephesians 5:19.

“‘Making melody’ is one word in Greek, psallontes. The verb psallo meant first to strike the strings of a harp or lyre. Then it meant to ‘strike up a tune.’ Finally it was used in the sense ‘to sing’” (p. 333).

It is important to remember that these men were affiliated with denominational groups that employ instrumental music in their worship. They have no motive for misrepresenting the facts of this issue. Their testimony, therefore, is compelling indeed.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/829-psallo-and-the-instrumental-music-controversy
Wayne Jackson

----------------------------------------------------

In Eph 5:18 Paul said "be filled with the Spirit" This is in the imperative mood. So how does one go about obeying this command?

Paul gave at least 5 PLURAL participles to do toobey this command: speaking, singing, making, giving and submitting. These participles themselves becomes impertives for they are required in order to obeythe command to be filled wtih the spirit.

So if psallo here means to play an insturments then EVERYONE would have to play (plural participle). No one can play for you, no one can speak for you, no one can sing for you, no one can give for you, no one can submit for you and therefore no one can be filled with the spirit for you. So everyone, if they are to be filled withthe spirit, is commanded to play an instrument if you insert playing into the text.

In the Classical Greek when psallo carried the idea of 'to pluck' the item to be plucked was always associated with psallo. The only item in the NT that is assocaited with psallo and is to be plucked is the heart, not a mechanical instrument. To pluck the heart is a figure of speech about singing.
 

watcher2013

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Aug 6, 2013
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James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law"

The point of these verses is that if you go back to the OT law to find jutification for some thing, then you have an obligation to contend for the WHOLE law else you are guilty of ALL the law.
The law commands the Jews to eat cows...lambs.....Are you saying those who eat cows and lambs are debtor to do the whole law?
Do you eat cows meat, lamb...how about chicken???

Praising God with instruments in anyway does not bring you back under the bondage of the Law...

There is no sin in praising God with instruments...As long as you praise him...so there is no reason for you to be justified in praising God.


ANother interesting passage is in Rom 7:1-6.

In this passage, Paul makes an analogy between a woman who has two husbands with a person trying to keep both the Law of Moses and the NT gospel of Christ. If a woman already has a husband and yet marries another man then she is keeping two husbands at the same time and is an adulteress. Likewise one who is a Christian is married to Christ and His NT gospel. Yet if he trys to keep both the law of Moses and Christ's NT gospel at the same time, he is committing a type of spiritual adultery.

But Paul further explains that if the woman's husband be dead she is free from the law to be married to another man and is not an adulteress. Likewise, "ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another". When Christ died on the cross, He took the OT laws out of the way" Col 2:14 making men dead to those laws so men could become married to Christ and His NT gospel.
again..there are good instruction that were under the Law that even if you do them today does not automatically put you under it...but if you seek justification by following it...that can be called you are married to the Law.
examples are:
thou shall not Murder
....commit adultery
....Steal
those were under the Law...but we are not justified by following them...but you don't kill do you?


You have yet to prove heaven is a physical realm with physical musical instruments.
Do you want to know the address of God and Jesus? How do you ask God and Jesus and by the way...What's in the "Lord's prayer"?


You have not proven that the harps are literal.
But if the harps are literal then there is just a liteal 144,000 to be in heaven, correct?
If you want to learn about the 144000 please click here.

regarding harps;
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God

Well if you believed God is symbolic then it must be consistent with his harps.



At the time Christ returns and the resurrection takes, place, after the judgment takes place and the goats are separated from the sheep, there will be no more marriage. No marriage in heaven will be taking place.
and what marriage has to do with harps?

So you are saying people can use whatever elements they so choose on the Lord's Supper, and what Christ Himself instituted does not matter nor needs to be followed. You really kill all your credibilty with your arguments here, but to continue on....
If what is used does not matter, then why woud Paul condemn the Corinthians for corrupting the Lord's Supper?
In Col 3:17 it says "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,..."
In the name of means by the authority of. If Christ instituted unleaven bread and fruit of the vine, who has the authority to change that, and where do they get the authority to make the change?
1 Cor 4:6 Paul said not to think beyond that which is written. Who has the authority to go beyond what is written in the bible concerning the elements instituted by Christ?
If one does not have to follow the bible when it comes to singing or the Lord's Supper, then one does not need to folow the bible when it comes to ANYTHING else. The bible is just a worthless, useless book.
Please read back what I wrote:

and Again:
Bread and Wine are the basic and that is your Lord Supper...I have not change anything:

Now If you are still hungry...you can eat whatever you want afterward...


And As you insist...If Christ instituted bread and fruit of the vine...

Do you strictly follow this....In your Church do you really drink wine? or some grape flavoured juice? Who then change what was instituted?


We do know what Noah did.....

God: "Make thee an ark of gopher wood..."
"Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he"
Gen 6:14,22

So if Noah made the ark of oak he would not have done as God commenaded him even though God did not specifically eliminate oak.
Do you know, how long it took Noah to exactly cut a gopher wood? Did he use nails? Did he work 8 hrs a day? who's in charge of hauling the trees?

So even though Christ did not specifically authorize a particular mode of transportation/communication, they were allowed to use what ever mode was most expedient to them WITHOUT changing the command Christ gave them.
Yes

Likewise, using song leaders, song book, microphones, amplifiers, speakers etc are not specifically authorize either, but they are used expediently to carry out the command to sing WITHOUT changing that command God gave the church.
Likewise guitar...organ...(connected to amplifier and speakers)...etc...aid for singing....


Therefore Noah using oak changes God's command says just as playing changes God's command.
Is gopher wood stronger than Oak tree? how about the availability of trees...was gopher wood more abundant than oak?
You see if there were only a few of oak tree available God would not instruct him to build the ark with Oak...

If Noah..Build the Ark with Oak...the primary command was done: "Build an ark", but there is no question there were changes in the specification...

S. hawkings would be allowed to sing the best way he was able to sing.
Stephen hawking from ask.com:
"Stephen Hawking permanently lost his voice due to a serious illness. Since then he has used a speech synthesizer to communicate. It works by using a predictive text entry system"

Applying your logic...Stephen hawking cannot praise/sing to God...because of change specification:

You see how hypocrite your argument:
you accept Microphone, amplifier..speaker, but you wont accept guitar (can be connected to amplifier), or organ (with built in speaker)
Did god command to use microphone...speakers...in singing???
 
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It's a rather essential portion of Restorationist theology. It's part of the whole mantra of "if you're not part of the CoC denomination, then you're not really a Christian because we're THE Church of Christ."

Not using instruments comes from the bible, not any movement.

God commanded singing, we sing.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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What is going to be to be hard to explain is why the instrument was rejected in worship for at least the first 1000 years of Church history.
 
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If you would like to keep talking hypotheticals that have very little relevance to Scriptural principles, go for it. And aside from Mr. Fergusons mental calisthenics (See #165), the Greek definition for "psalms" in the Ephesians and Colossians verses includes instruments. If would like to keep referring to gopher wood and work schedules to try and refute a Bible full of reference to worshipping with instruments, go for it. But my shoulder and hamstrings hurt from shoveling dirt yesterday. I don't have it in me to keep stretching with you.

And for those of you keeping score, I got to work this morning at 7:40am, even though my boss told me to be in by 8.

Happy early-Sabbath,
Matt
The fact is that people understand and use this simple logic multiple times everyday.

You understand that when your employer tells you to be at work by 8:00 that eliminates 3:00 WITHOUT him specifically forbidding 3:00pm

You understand that when you order "X" off the menu that eliminates all other menu items WITHOUT you going thru the entire menu eliminating all other menu items you do not want.

The issue here is that this simpliest of logic works against those who use IM. And they struggle with it, trying to find a way to get around something they use everyday.

If you do not like what Mr. Ferguson wrote, I just recently posted writings from some well known Greek scholars and what their schalorship led them to say about psallo. If you see it and read it, make sure to read the last paragraph that I underlined. It points out these scholars were members of denominations that used IM, so they had no underlying agenda, they wrote what their scholarship (not theological bias) led them to write.


If you was at work at 7:40a then you was there by 8:00a and did as your employer told you.
 
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Man can have neither without God. Man has no faith except God give it through His word. Man cannot save himself God must do it. Were it not for God's great mercy and love for His creation all would be lost and lost forever.

Man brings nothing to the table but sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You say man cannot have faith without God.

So if I was faithless, whose fault would that be? Matt 8:26, if one can only get faith from God, then whose fault was it those disciples only had "little faith"?


In Acts 2 Peter told his hearers to "save yourselves" Acts 2:40. Paul told Timothy to "save thyself" 1 Tim 4:16. So evidently man plays a role in his own salvation, he has a part in his own salvation by developing faith within his heart...."and shalt believe in thine heart" Rom 10:9
 
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The law commands the Jews to eat cows...lambs.....Are you saying those who eat cows and lambs are debtor to do the whole law?
Do you eat cows meat, lamb...how about chicken???

Praising God with instruments in anyway does not bring you back under the bondage of the Law...

There is no sin in praising God with instruments...As long as you praise him...so there is no reason for you to be justified in praising God.




again..there are good instruction that were under the Law that even if you do them today does not automatically put you under it...but if you seek justification by following it...that can be called you are married to the Law.
examples are:
thou shall not Murder
....commit adultery
....Steal
those were under the Law...but we are not justified by following them...but you don't kill do you?




Do you want to know the address of God and Jesus? How do you ask God and Jesus and by the way...What's in the "Lord's prayer"?




If you want to learn about the 144000 please click here.

regarding harps;
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God

Well if you believed God is symbolic then it must be consistent with his harps.





and what marriage has to do with harps?



Please read back what I wrote:

and Again:
Bread and Wine are the basic and that is your Lord Supper...I have not change anything:

Now If you are still hungry...you can eat whatever you want afterward...


And As you insist...If Christ instituted bread and fruit of the vine...

Do you strictly follow this....In your Church do you really drink wine? or some grape flavoured juice? Who then change what was instituted?




Do you know, how long it took Noah to exactly cut a gopher wood? Did he use nails? Did he work 8 hrs a day? who's in charge of hauling the trees?


Yes


Likewise guitar...organ...(connected to amplifier and speakers)...etc...aid for singing....



Is gopher wood stronger than Oak tree? how about the availability of trees...was gopher wood more abundant than oak?
You see if there were only a few of oak tree available God would not instruct him to build the ark with Oak...

If Noah..Build the Ark with Oak...the primary command was done: "Build an ark", but there is no question there were changes in the specification...


Stephen hawking from ask.com:
"Stephen Hawking permanently lost his voice due to a serious illness. Since then he has used a speech synthesizer to communicate. It works by using a predictive text entry system"

Applying your logic...Stephen hawking cannot praise/sing to God...because of change specification:

You see how hypocrite your argument:
you accept Microphone, amplifier..speaker, but you wont accept guitar (can be connected to amplifier), or organ (with built in speaker)
Did god command to use microphone...speakers...in singing???
Eating chicken lamb or whatever has nothing to do with worship, it's all about what can be used in worship only, and yes I eat everything you mentioned, except lamb, to high for my budget. Again, it's about what can be used in worship only is what I'm trying to relay to you. Microphone can be used because it simply magnifies the sound YOUR making. Mr Hawking can use his machine because the sound that comes out is still made by HIS voice. God is wanting the highest level of spirituality that can be achieved by his creation, man, and the only way that can be achieved is through singing. This makes the spiritual connection God is wanting to achieve, but if you added a man made machine that produces sound other than your voice, then you have defeated the whole purpose of what God is trying to achieve, which is the highest level of spirituality with his creation.
 
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The lexicons never mean that PSALLO MEANT or demanded an instrument.
The Lexicons list the ways that psallo is USED and point to the Greek or Latin Text where the word is used.

Again, Psallo has the same root meaning as SOP: all of the PSAO words are connecting to striking of SMITING something. The lyres had no sounding board or body and the people STRUCK the strings with a golden plecktron to make a sharp SOUND. I have collected a dozen or so words used to mean SMITING a bowstring or harp string; they are all ROOTED in planning to HURT someone.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


We do NOT wrestle against flesh and blood:


Pale (g3823) pal'-ay; from pallo, (to vibrate; another form for 906); wrestling: - / wrestle

-Pallô, poise, sway a missile before it is thrown, sway, brandish, she drove it furiously, tripped on the shield-rim, quiver, leap, esp. in fear, II. Pass., swing, dash oneself, Pi.N.5.21; vibrate, of strings, Pl.Phd.94c (psalloito ap. Stob.); leap, bound, quiver, quake, phrena deimati pallôn S.OT153 (lyr.); dash along, of horses, E.El.477 (lyr.). Quivering with fear.

Pindar, Nemean 5[19] But if it is resolved to praise wealth, or the strength of hands, or iron war, [20] let someone mark off a long jump for me from this point. I have a light spring in my knees, and eagles swoop over the sea. The most beautiful chorus of Muses sang gladly for the Aeacids on Mt. Pelion, and among them Apollo, [Abaddon, Apollyon] sweeping the seven-tongued lyre with a golden plectrum, [You cannot USE a PLECTRUM without violating the LAW if you use psallo as authority][25] led all types of strains. And the Muses [sorcerers Rev 18] began with a prelude to Zeus, then sang first of divine Thetis and of Peleus; how Hippolyte, the opulent daughter of Cretheus, wanted to trap him with deceit. With elaborate planning she persuaded her husband, the watcher of the Magnesians, to be a partner in her plot, and she forged a false story; [30] that Peleus had made an attempt on her [31] in Acastus' own bed. But the opposite was true; for she often begged him and coaxed him with all her heart, but her reckless words provoked his temper.
There joyful bands welcome the god with the cry of reed-pipes, and contend with the bold strength of their limbs. [40] The fortune that is born along with a man decides in every deed. And you, Euthymenes from Aegina, have twice fallen into the arms of Victory [lNike] and attained embroidered hymns.

Jesus said that God HIDES from the WISE: the wise are Sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers and instrument players especially melody in a holy place. So, why does a church of Christ become a CULT when its primary focus HAS been centered on being as commanded A School of the Word.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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The question this brings up is, why didn't they? This would seem to indicate they did not recognize it as proper.
I think not...There was no problem in using instruments...the only law about instrument was as to who's in-charge in taking care of it.
even in the OT...they were not condemned, neither they were justified in using instruments in praising God...

they can sing with or without instruments...
SO NO NEED TO EVEN PROVE It....
 
Mar 12, 2014
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The law commands the Jews to eat cows...lambs.....Are you saying those who eat cows and lambs are debtor to do the whole law?
Do you eat cows meat, lamb...how about chicken???

Praising God with instruments in anyway does not bring you back under the bondage of the Law...

There is no sin in praising God with instruments...As long as you praise him...so there is no reason for you to be justified in praising God.
From Deut 5, the law of Moses beginning with the 10 commandments was only given to the Jews to keep. Nowhere was that law ever given to Gentiles or Christians to keep. Yet Christ took it out of the way, Col 2:15; Heb 10:9 Heb 7:12 so it does not matter what that law commands, CHrist mad in inactive, of not effect.


If God commands me to do "X" but I do "Y" is that sin/disobedience?





watcher2013 said:
again..there are good instruction that were under the Law that even if you do them today does not automatically put you under it...but if you seek justification by following it...that can be called you are married to the Law.
examples are:
thou shall not Murder
....commit adultery
....Steal
those were under the Law...but we are not justified by following them...but you don't kill do you?
Again, Christ took the 10 commandments out of the way and replaced it with HIS NT law. His NT law forbids lying, murder, adultery, etc. Adultery is wrong for Christ said its wrong. Under the OT you had to commit the physical act but Christ's NT say if you just look upon a woman in lust you have committed it.

So there is a difference beweenOT worship under that law and NT worship under Christ's law. The OT worship was carnal, fleshl in nature with cicumcisions, animal sacrifices, purifications etc. Yet NT worship is different where one worships in spirit and truth.

The Hebrew defined OT worship as "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Heb 9:10 Using IM would be dragging that canality of OT worhsip into NT worhsip that is spiritual. As I have heard it sid, God's silence on IM actaully speaks volumes He does not want them. God cares nothing about noise coming from carnal mechanical instruments but is joyed by hearing His children sing to him from their very soul, very heart.







watcher2013 said:
Do you want to know the address of God and Jesus? How do you ask God and Jesus and by the way...What's in the "Lord's prayer"?




If you want to learn about the 144000 please click here.

regarding harps;
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God

Well if you believed God is symbolic then it must be consistent with his harps.


If the harps are literal are the 144.000 literal? Are the bowls of prayers literal?





watcher2013 said:
and what marriage has to do with harps?
If litearal harps playing in heaven sanction the use of harps on earth in the church, then does the lack of marrage taking palce in heaven sanction no marrigae in the church also?



watcher2013 said:
Please read back what I wrote:

and Again:
Bread and Wine are the basic and that is your Lord Supper...I have not change anything:

Now If you are still hungry...you can eat whatever you want afterward...


And As you insist...If Christ instituted bread and fruit of the vine...

Do you strictly follow this....In your Church do you really drink wine? or some grape flavoured juice? Who then change what was instituted?
I asked about using peanuts and o.j. for the Lord's Supper you said it would not be a sin. So your position is man can change what the bible says making the bible usless.




watcher2013 said:
Do you know, how long it took Noah to exactly cut a gopher wood? Did he use nails? Did he work 8 hrs a day? who's in charge of hauling the trees?[p/QUOTE]

The issue was if Noah built the ark out of oak would he have done as God commanded him?


watcher2013 said:
Yes


Likewise guitar...organ...(connected to amplifier and speakers)...etc...aid for singing....

Playing changes the command to sing just as if Noah used oak rather than gopher wood.



watcher2013 said:
Is gopher wood stronger than Oak tree? how about the availability of trees...was gopher wood more abundant than oak?
You see if there were only a few of oak tree available God would not instruct him to build the ark with Oak...

If Noah..Build the Ark with Oak...the primary command was done: "Build an ark", but there is no question there were changes in the specification...


Again, Gen 6:14 "Make thee an ark of gopher wood.."

If Noah had built the ark with oak, would he have done as God commanded in Gen 6:14?


watcher2013 said:
Stephen hawking from ask.com:
watcher2013 said:
"Stephen Hawking permanently lost his voice due to a serious illness. Since then he has used a speech synthesizer to communicate. It works by using a predictive text entry system"

Applying your logic...Stephen hawking cannot praise/sing to God...because of change specification:

You see how hypocrite your argument:
you accept Microphone, amplifier..speaker, but you wont accept guitar (can be connected to amplifier), or organ (with built in speaker)
Did god command to use microphone...speakers...in singing???
You argument is rather ridiculous trying to use Hawkings as an excuse to use IM.
God would not expect Hawkings to do something he cannot physically possibly do.
 
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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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Eating chicken lamb or whatever has nothing to do with worship, it's all about what can be used in worship only, and yes I eat everything you mentioned, except lamb, to high for my budget. Again, it's about what can be used in worship only is what I'm trying to relay to you. Microphone can be used because it simply magnifies the sound YOUR making. Mr Hawking can use his machine because the sound that comes out is still made by HIS voice. God is wanting the highest level of spirituality that can be achieved by his creation, man, and the only way that can be achieved is through singing. This makes the spiritual connection God is wanting to achieve, but if you added a man made machine that produces sound other than your voice, then you have defeated the whole purpose of what God is trying to achieve, which is the highest level of spirituality with his creation.
why do you need to magnify your sound...It is God you are praising right?
based from ask.com...Stephen hawking uses Predictive TEXT SYSTEM...
 
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What is going to be to be hard to explain is why the instrument was rejected in worship for at least the first 1000 years of Church history.

Hi,

It was introduced into worship by man without God's authority. Unfortunately, over the years that I have spent on various internet religious forums, bible authority means less and less to people.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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you know, the Bible doesn't mention the internet.

are we all sinning by talking about the things of God on a web forum??


:confused:
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
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I think not...There was no problem in using instruments...the only law about instrument was as to who's in-charge in taking care it.
even in the OT...they were not condemned, neither they were justified in using instruments in praising God...

they can sing with or without instruments...
SO NO NEED TO EVEN PROVE It....
You are not addressing the question. Regardless of how instruments were or were not regarded in OT worship does not explain why the early Church rejected them in their worship. It was not until the 10th or 12th century that they found their way into the Christian worship. If instrumental worship was implied the word ψαλμοῖς then why did the early Church reject this. It would seem that if this is what was meant by the apostle Paul, the early Church would have followed that apostolic instruction. The fact that the did not would suggest that they did not understand the Ephesian charge in this way.
 
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posthuman

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What is going to be to be hard to explain is why the instrument was rejected in worship for at least the first 1000 years of Church history.

as i understand it, it was more like 5-700 years (am no historian, maybe neither one of us has the right number) but it was because Jewish synagogues forbade musical instruments, and the early Christian church patterned themselves after the synagogue.

the reason that musical instruments weren't used in synagogues was because they were used in worship at the temple. when there was no more temple, the Jews differentiated what they were doing in the synagogue from what they considered "true worship" -- i.e. the temple ceremonies.

Jesus however said God's true worshipers would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

if anything, the 'temple argument' should tell us that we can (and perhaps should!) worship the Lord with all kinds of instruments, since we now are His temple!
 
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chubbena

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Question: In the great commisson, Mt 28:19,20, Jesus commanded His disciples to "go". Yet in this context, nowhere did Jesus authorize a certain mode of transportation/communication. So what mode of transportation/communication could the disciples use since none was specifically authorized?
Do you drive a Honda Accord? Consider this:
KJV Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one ACCORD in one place.

On the other hand, it's refreshing to see fellow Christians using OT verses to support their opinions. If only "musical instruments" are replaced with the word "Sabbath".
 

oldhermit

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as i understand it, it was more like 5-700 years (am no historian, maybe neither one of us has the right number) but it was because Jewish synagogues forbade musical instruments, and the early Christian church patterned themselves after the synagogue.

the reason that musical instruments weren't used in synagogues was because they were used in worship at the temple. when there was no more temple, the Jews differentiated what they were doing in the synagogue from what they considered "true worship" -- i.e. the temple ceremonies.

Jesus however said God's true worshipers would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

if anything, the 'temple argument' should tell us that we can (and perhaps should!) worship the Lord with all kinds of instruments, since we now are His temple!
You could be right. It has been many years since I have really studied Church History. I cannot remember a date that early but, even if we are talking about 500 years, the question still stands. If this was the intent of Paul's use of ψαλμοῖς. why did it take 500 years for the Church to accept it?
 

oldhermit

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the reason that musical instruments weren't used in synagogues was because they were used in worship at the temple. when there was no more temple, the Jews differentiated what they were doing in the synagogue from what they considered "true worship" -- i.e. the temple ceremonies.

Jesus however said God's true worshipers would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

if anything, the 'temple argument' should tell us that we can (and perhaps should!) worship the Lord with all kinds of instruments, since we now are His temple!
This would not explain why this practice was rejected even by the Gentile Churches as well.
 
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