Clergy.

[Yet]

Then you have those that I believe are honest and mean well but haven't learned to be 'led of the Spirit' yet. Because of all the religious noise and business and deception are caught up in all the church 'works'.
1Cor.3:10-17 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation(Christ, the chief cornerstone) and others build there on. But let every man take heed how he builds there on. For no other foundation can man lay than the one laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If any man builds on this foundation gold, silver,precious stones or wood, hay, stubble ,then every man's work shall be exposed, for the day will reveal it by fire trying every man's work.
If any man's work survives, he'll receive a reward. If not, he will suffer loss, but still be saved.

But here's the rub. Psalm 11:3 if the foundation be compromised or destroyed what can the righteous do. Those that refuse to budge without His clear consent and direction really won't be able to fit their puzzle piece into a man controlled and directed system.
Cleric led and not Christ led. Suppose to be every member functioning by His leading and anointing. Work well for about 170 years then gradually turned south.

 

[MikeHenderson]

Ephesians 4:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are needed for the building up of the body of Christ.

Sounds like you are trying to teach a different Gospel than the one we have received from God.

So tell us Yet, which Church do you attend? Which Church are you affiliated with?

Which church you attend tells a lot about who you are and what your agenda is.

 

[Yet]

Ephesians 4:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are needed for the building up of the body of Christ.

Sounds like you are trying to teach a different Gospel than the one we have received from God.

So tell us Yet, which Church do you attend? Which Church are you affiliated with?

Which church you attend tells a lot about who you are and what your agenda is.

My agenda is the the word of God. Thought you'd see that by now.

You say the Five fold ministries is to build up the body of Christ....and I agree..but you left part of that scripture out. Why?

What Was the body being build up for.
You think I'm teaching a different gospel. I am not. The church teaches a different gospel.
I put forth the corrective verses and no one will answer them.

So why was the body being built up? Let's start there.

 

[Yet]

For the work of the ministry.....in an open meeting...the assembly of the saints.

 

[kohelet]

My agenda is the the word of God.

Great, Yet. Then you'll understand that, as Mike reminded us, the Holy Spirit "gave some as pastors", who are members of the clergy.

 

[Yet]

Great, Yet. Then you'll understand that, as Mike reminded us, the Holy Spirit "gave some as pastors", who are members of the clergy.

Absolutely right....pastors....plural.these are elders. Not the 'one pastor at the top' scenario. Not in bible.

The word clergy is from the Greek cleros. And it means God's heritage. It's us.

 

[kohelet]

Absolutely right....pastors....plural.these are elders. Not the 'one pastor at the top' scenario. Not in bible.

The word clergy is from the Greek cleros. And it means God's heritage. It's us.

No it's not Yet (well, it's not yet and never was), it's from Latin.

clergy (n.)

c. 1200, clergie "office or dignity of a clergyman," from two Old French words: 1. clergié "clerics, learned men," from Medieval Latin clericatus, from Late Latin clericus (see clerk (n.)); 2. clergie "learning, knowledge, erudition," from clerc, also from Late Latin clericus. Meaning "persons ordained for religious work" is from c. 1300.



And the Greek term translated "pastors" in Ephesians 4 is ποιμήν, shepherd. How many shepherds tend a flock at a time?

 

[Yet]

No it's not Yet (well, it's not yet and never was), it's from Latin.

clergy (n.)

c. 1200, clergie "office or dignity of a clergyman," from two Old French words: 1. clergié "clerics, learned men," from Medieval Latin clericatus, from Late Latin clericus (see clerk (n.)); 2. clergie "learning, knowledge, erudition," from clerc, also from Late Latin clericus. Meaning "persons ordained for religious work" is from c. 1300.



And the Greek term translated "pastors" in Ephesians 4 is ποιμήν, shepherd. How many shepherds tend a flock at a time?

You could be right. I'm saying every source I ever checked says cleros is Greek.

All the elders tended the flock. All took the oversight.

Strongs concordance. Greek Kleros

 

[kohelet]

You could be right. I'm saying every source I ever checked says cleros is Greek.

All the elders tended the flock. All took the oversight.

Strongs concordance. Greek Kleros

Oh, just looked at a Greek dictionary. There is the word κλῆρος, which means "lot, portion" (the ῆ pronounced é, as in café - kléros) and which refers in 1 Peter 5:3 to the portion of a congregation assigned to an elder. If there were, for example, four elders and forty in the congregation, each elder would be placed in charge of ten people. So this is evidently what you are thinking about. This doesn't mean that there was not a pastor/teacher who had oversight over the whole church, however. Paul writes of a person with this role in the church.

 

[Yet]

Where does Paul write of a single top senior pastor? Thanks. I love the studying the word.

And I don't see that about a portion assigned to an elder.

 

[kohelet]

Where does Paul write of a single top senior pastor? Thanks. I love the studying the word.

And I don't see that about a portion assigned to an elder.

Oh, you may well be right, Yet (you may yet be right). I don't know the first thing about this stuff. I'm making it up as I go along, pretty much. Leave it with me; I'll get back to you.

 

[PeterJens]

Where does Paul write of a single top senior pastor?

Paul was the top senior pastor. Read his letters, of advice on every subject, encouraging and thanking people for all their effort and support, correcting failures, and building up the brethren.

 

[Yet]

Paul was the top senior pastor. Read his letters, of advice on every subject, encouraging and thanking people for all their effort and support, correcting failures, and building up the brethren.

He was indeed a shepherd but also an apostle, not a fixture in a local body. A traveling preacher he was.

To define 'pastor' today is light years removed from the NT commands.

A plurality of pastors, Acts 20 and 1Peter 5. Read those verses and if you can pull the single top dog salaried pastor out of them, then show us all. I have a teachable spirit so I look forward to the proof you'll provide...from any NT, Acts on verses.

 

[kohelet]

Yet, Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus are known as pastoral epistles. Timothy was a protégé of Paul, who wrote to him on matters which would help him in his leadership of the church at Ephesus. As Paul advises Timothy on, among other things, matters of the qualifications of overseers (elders and deacons), I suppose Timothy was a pastor not unlike pastors of today or the epistles would not be addressed to him specifically.

 

[Yet]

Diotrephes in 3John took the preeminence over the folks. He wanted to be a cleric.

Satan tried this on for size in Isaiah 14 , elevating himself above the congregation. Pride, pride, and more pride.

Preeminence: dominance: dominance in Latin refers to God. Also scholarly eminence.

Thus in the context of 'church' when one uses his knowledge to elevate himself above others, he is usurping God's position, as Diotrephes did.

Matt. 23 the exalted shall be humbled.

 

[kohelet]

Diotrephes in 3John took the preeminence over the folks. He wanted to be a cleric.

Diotrephes was power-hungry. He failed the requirements of elders (Titus 1:6-9) on practically every level. Paul told Titus in this context to appoint elders in every town. It wasn't having authority where Diotrephes made his mistake, it was in his rejecting it.

 

[Yet]

Diotrephes was power-hungry. He failed the requirements of elders (Titus 1:6-9) on practically every level. Paul told Titus in this context to appoint elders in every town. It wasn't having authority where Diotrephes made his mistake, it was in his rejecting it.

Wrong. He wanted the preeminence. Where does it say that he failed the test for eldership. I might have missed that. Thanks.
Other scriptures back the non self exaltation command. We are not to 'lord it over His heritage.'
Matt. 20 the verses that you never hear taught on. Jesus told His own that the world has its upper authority system 'but it shall not be so among you'.
Elders were to take the oversight of the flock, not the overlord.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Diotrephes was power-hungry. He failed the requirements of elders (Titus 1:6-9) on practically every level. Paul told Titus in this context to appoint elders in every town. It wasn't having authority where Diotrephes made his mistake, it was in his rejecting it.

We don't know if Diotrephes was appointed by John (or some other) or not, but it's obvious that he misunderstood godly authority (speak the truth and guide others), and rejected it to advance his own authority (rule over others).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yet, Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus are known as pastoral epistles. Timothy was a protégé of Paul, who wrote to him on matters which would help him in his leadership of the church at Ephesus. As Paul advises Timothy on, among other things, matters of the qualifications of overseers (elders and deacons), I suppose Timothy was a pastor not unlike pastors of today or the epistles would not be addressed to him specifically.

An appellation created by pastors.

 

[kohelet]

An appellation created by pastors.

Name one.

(Hey, we don't argue - we're on the same side!)