Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism
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Additionally, I firmly believe that free-willers simply form Scripture around the presupposition that it wouldn't be fair if everyone wasn't given an equal chance at salvation.
In other words, they have a false god who meets their standards of fairness.
I used to be an annihilationist. There are Scriptures that seem to support annihilationism However, my thinking on this was not even questioned because my presupposition was that it would be unfair for God to eternally punish the unrighteous. Over the years, though, as I begun to see that scriptures used to support annihilationism were largely relating to OT shadows and types of eternal punishment, and that death, destruction, and perishing can be used to describe the spiritual state, regardless if the person is existing or not, I begun to see that eternal punishment was credible, and in fact probable.
I realized that it was my presuppositions about God and what is fair or not fair that was shaping my thinking, and twisting my view of Scripture.
The free-willer is doing the same thing. It is abundantly clear that God has elected certain individuals to salvation, based on no merit of their own (including foreseen belief). He has given these individuals to his Son. The Son atoned for their sins on the Cross, making it an ACTUAL and PERSONAL atonement, not some kind of general, universal atonement. The Spirit applies this redemption to these individuals in time.
Salvation is a coordinated work between the three Persons of the Triune God. He does not operate in isolation, meaning that the Son does not redeem the non-elect, and the Holy Spirit does not apply salvation to the non-elect.
To believe otherwise is simply to claim that the three Persons operate in isolation from one another.
And, if the free-willer is saved, it is to deny himself the intended blessing of knowing that God has loved him since eternity past, and therefore God won't give up on him. That is what chesed/hesed or steadfast, covenant love is based upon.
To be honest with you, free-willer theology is so disconnected and error-laden that I find it impossible to take them seriously.
In other words, they have a false god who meets their standards of fairness.
I used to be an annihilationist. There are Scriptures that seem to support annihilationism However, my thinking on this was not even questioned because my presupposition was that it would be unfair for God to eternally punish the unrighteous. Over the years, though, as I begun to see that scriptures used to support annihilationism were largely relating to OT shadows and types of eternal punishment, and that death, destruction, and perishing can be used to describe the spiritual state, regardless if the person is existing or not, I begun to see that eternal punishment was credible, and in fact probable.
I realized that it was my presuppositions about God and what is fair or not fair that was shaping my thinking, and twisting my view of Scripture.
The free-willer is doing the same thing. It is abundantly clear that God has elected certain individuals to salvation, based on no merit of their own (including foreseen belief). He has given these individuals to his Son. The Son atoned for their sins on the Cross, making it an ACTUAL and PERSONAL atonement, not some kind of general, universal atonement. The Spirit applies this redemption to these individuals in time.
Salvation is a coordinated work between the three Persons of the Triune God. He does not operate in isolation, meaning that the Son does not redeem the non-elect, and the Holy Spirit does not apply salvation to the non-elect.
To believe otherwise is simply to claim that the three Persons operate in isolation from one another.
And, if the free-willer is saved, it is to deny himself the intended blessing of knowing that God has loved him since eternity past, and therefore God won't give up on him. That is what chesed/hesed or steadfast, covenant love is based upon.
To be honest with you, free-willer theology is so disconnected and error-laden that I find it impossible to take them seriously.
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Present the Scripture.
He said something like, "you almost persuade me to become a Christian".
True faith can be broken down into:
1. Understanding the facts
2. Assenting that those facts are true.
3. Placing one's confidence on these facts.
Agrippa did not have faith. I don't even know if he reached the second level.
And without regeneration, the faith is not a saving faith. It doesn't even matter if he reaches level 3, because there is a false form of faith that is not resulting from regeneration.
For example, many walked away from Jesus after his doctrine offended them in John 6, even if they were identified with him at one point.
He said something like, "you almost persuade me to become a Christian".
True faith can be broken down into:
1. Understanding the facts
2. Assenting that those facts are true.
3. Placing one's confidence on these facts.
Agrippa did not have faith. I don't even know if he reached the second level.
And without regeneration, the faith is not a saving faith. It doesn't even matter if he reaches level 3, because there is a false form of faith that is not resulting from regeneration.
For example, many walked away from Jesus after his doctrine offended them in John 6, even if they were identified with him at one point.
Acts 26
25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
Its not my description, it's Jesus'. description of Himself.
(post-Resurrection)
"While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.”
But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them."
-Luke 24:36-43
This was a full-bodily resurrection. Same as ours will be:
"if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. -Rom 8:11
(post-Resurrection)
"While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.”
But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them."
-Luke 24:36-43
This was a full-bodily resurrection. Same as ours will be:
"if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. -Rom 8:11
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What's your point, though?
Do you think that Agrippa's conversion relied specifically upon Paul's ability to persuade him?
Do you think that the words of Agrippa determine proper soteriology?
Do you understand the difference between didactic teaching and historical narrative, and how each genre has different demands in regards to hermeneutics?
By the way, the difference between whether someone hears and responds, or does not, is determined by whether they are appointed to salvation, and this is taught in Acts 13.
Agrippa rejected the gospel because he was not one of the elect. There is a general call and an effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen.
I would list the Scriptures in regards to this, but I would not want to insult your biblical prowess. You should know my allusions. But, if you don't, let me know and I will list them.
Do you think that Agrippa's conversion relied specifically upon Paul's ability to persuade him?
Do you think that the words of Agrippa determine proper soteriology?
Do you understand the difference between didactic teaching and historical narrative, and how each genre has different demands in regards to hermeneutics?
By the way, the difference between whether someone hears and responds, or does not, is determined by whether they are appointed to salvation, and this is taught in Acts 13.
Agrippa rejected the gospel because he was not one of the elect. There is a general call and an effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen.
I would list the Scriptures in regards to this, but I would not want to insult your biblical prowess. You should know my allusions. But, if you don't, let me know and I will list them.
The bodily resurrection is totally biblical.
The resurrection body will be material.
Jesus' resurrection body had continuity with his body.
That is one reason why I reject KJV Only theology by the way...Mark 16:9-20 has been used to teach both the "spirit resurrection" view, and the baptismal regeneration view.
Note that I said "spirit resurrection" and not "spiritual resurrection". There is a difference..just like a saved man can be spiritual, this body will reflect some spiritual qualities, but it is not a disembodied spirit.
The resurrection body will be material.
Jesus' resurrection body had continuity with his body.
That is one reason why I reject KJV Only theology by the way...Mark 16:9-20 has been used to teach both the "spirit resurrection" view, and the baptismal regeneration view.
Note that I said "spirit resurrection" and not "spiritual resurrection". There is a difference..just like a saved man can be spiritual, this body will reflect some spiritual qualities, but it is not a disembodied spirit.
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I can assure you that I completely understand that God is fair in His dealings with mankind. I have no inclination to think that God would be unfair to not give us a choice in the matter. The reason I believe what I believe is because the Biblical data seems to point that direction, not because the opposite seems absurd.
I have never claimed that people merit or contribute to the actual saving work. I have only conveyed that God saves when people want to be saved and call on His name.
Romans 10:13-14 is clear that belief preceded salvation:
"whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (salvation from calling on Him)
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? (calling on Him comes after believing in Him)
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? (belief comes after hearing)
So we shouldn't keep saying things like "a person can't believe until they're saved". It's a demonstrably false statement
I have never claimed that people merit or contribute to the actual saving work. I have only conveyed that God saves when people want to be saved and call on His name.
Romans 10:13-14 is clear that belief preceded salvation:
"whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (salvation from calling on Him)
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? (calling on Him comes after believing in Him)
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? (belief comes after hearing)
So we shouldn't keep saying things like "a person can't believe until they're saved". It's a demonstrably false statement
I don't wish to speak for "Diakonos" [member], but some of us see that incident ( ^ you're speaking of--that particular scene in Lk24:39) as having taken place BETWEEN His first [ACTIVE] ascension ON Firstfruit (/His Resurrection Day, per John 20:17 and other refs [Lev23:10-12, for example]) and that of His LATER "VISIBLE" ascension in Acts 1 (some "40 days" later).
Just sayin
Just sayin
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So when you say "even if he does the sins he tells us not to do" you are saying that God really does sin but because He is God He cannot sin ... iow if He sins, He really doesn't sin???
Is that what you want me to believe you believe? ... yikes ...
You know absolutely nothing about God if you believe God could do "the sins he tells us not to do". That thought should not even enter your head ... much less spill out onto an open forum.
God is Holy and His Holiness is beyond our ability to comprehend. The most holy you or I can comprehend in our minds is less than a scintilla of God's Holiness.
Wrong ... Wrong ... Wrong.
People don't sin because God "causes people to sin". What a crock. God wants people to turn from their sin.
As far as God causing people to not sin ... are you telling me that you do not sin??? Or are you telling me that when you do sin, it's because God didn't "cause you not to sin" ... so now you're blaming God for your sin???
If you tell me you don't sin, you are lying to yourself and to me (1 John 1:8).
What God tells us is that He provides a way of escape for us so that we are able to withstand temptation (1 Col 10:13).
God also tells us that when the adversary is on the prowl seeking to devour us, as we withstand the onslaught, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-10).
God also tells us that He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24).
So, again, when we sin, it is not because God "causes people to sin". We sin because we are weak and we do not stand strong in faith ... we do not take the escape God provides ... we do not resist the devil when he seeks to devour us ... we do not rest in God's ability to keep us from falling.
Is that what you want me to believe you believe? ... yikes ...
You know absolutely nothing about God if you believe God could do "the sins he tells us not to do". That thought should not even enter your head ... much less spill out onto an open forum.
God is Holy and His Holiness is beyond our ability to comprehend. The most holy you or I can comprehend in our minds is less than a scintilla of God's Holiness.
Wrong ... Wrong ... Wrong.
People don't sin because God "causes people to sin". What a crock. God wants people to turn from their sin.
As far as God causing people to not sin ... are you telling me that you do not sin??? Or are you telling me that when you do sin, it's because God didn't "cause you not to sin" ... so now you're blaming God for your sin???
If you tell me you don't sin, you are lying to yourself and to me (1 John 1:8).
What God tells us is that He provides a way of escape for us so that we are able to withstand temptation (1 Col 10:13).
God also tells us that when the adversary is on the prowl seeking to devour us, as we withstand the onslaught, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-10).
God also tells us that He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24).
So, again, when we sin, it is not because God "causes people to sin". We sin because we are weak and we do not stand strong in faith ... we do not take the escape God provides ... we do not resist the devil when he seeks to devour us ... we do not rest in God's ability to keep us from falling.
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