Colossians 2:16-17

prove-all · Jun 29, 2015

-ok lets see what the bible says here.

Acts 20:7

[And upon the first day of the week],

-sabbath just ended, at sunset, sunday was just starting.

[when the disciples]

-this was the deciples , not teaching a sunday service to a crowd.

[came together to break bread]

-first, most times the deciples stayed or lived together,

-and breaking bread is eating a meal , they sat down to eat and gave thanks.
breaking bread did [not] mean a religious service.

[Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow;]

-here Paul was leaving in morning, his companions where rowing there boat allready,
they went around a land point, Paul would walk straight across it, be gone for awhile.

[and continued his speech until midnight.]

-so far then we have sunset to midnight,
in that time , they spent upstairs instance, and ate a meal.

[quote - preaching to the other disciples all day tell midnight]

-no [this is false]all of the daytime of the first day of week he was walking .

[the Sabbath is not a day of worship. ]

-really, have a verse for that? I can give a few that say otherwise if want

KennethC · Jun 29, 2015

prove-all said:

You can try and interject things that I highlighted in red and are not being said in that passage to try and change what it is saying, but it still doesn't change that Paul preaching to the disciples was on the first day of the week (Sunday).

1) I agree in the Sabbath being on Saturday, however Paul's preaching in this verse was on Sunday.......

2) We believers are all disciples of Christ, so to make a statement they all lived together is completely false as it says they came together to meet, break bread, and worship with Paul leading the service...

3) Where do get his companions already left when Paul started preaching, as it shows they were all still in the upper room???

4) Nowhere does it say he was walking during the first day of the week, it says this is when they gathered in the upper room to break bread, and Paul preaching the sermon to them.

5) [h=1]Exodus 20:8-11[/h]8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will baketo day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

It is a day of rest and no work at all was to be done on the Sabbath, even picking up sticks on the Sabbath carried death in the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws;

Numbers 15:32-36
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

prove-all · Jun 29, 2015

KennethC said:

ok i am listening to your view, lets look first thing.

question - when does the first day of the week start?

I say it started right after the sabbath was over at sunset.

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

(Posthuman)
sorry if i'm not adding anything to the "argument over words," but i hope i at least add an encouragement to remain at peace with each other over this, since we all know that observance or non-observance of these things are not what merited the grace He showed to us.

(Robin)
Yes ... the conversations are a little harsh ... I too have done this on occasion, it's hard not to when a reply is mean spirited, or the person just ignores the speicfic question and goes off on some tangent .... or frustrating when the response is just plain dumb. But then, I've said a dumb thing or two, myself, and some of you have still been kind enough to take the time to respond and attempt to explain things. I do listen, I dont always agree, but I do appreciate.

prove-all · Jun 30, 2015

KennethC said:

-sabbath ended sunday began at evening, ate preached[gave last minute instructions]
to some deciples, ready to depart in the morning, this morning is still first day week,

13And [we went before] to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in [Paul]:
for so had he appointed, [minding himself to go afoot]. -he did not take a taxie

14And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.

4And there accompanied him into Asia Sopater of Berea; and of the Thessalonians,
Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus.

5These going before tarried for us at Troas.

-why even record a holy convocation if done away

6And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread,
and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

prove-all · Jun 30, 2015

What “Break Bread” Means

does this text not say, as many claim today, that the disciples always
held communion every first day of the week? Not at all!

it says nothing about anything being done every first day of the week.

It relates the events of this one particular first day of the week, only.
It is not speaking of any customs, but of the events occurring as Paul and his companions
concluded their seven-day visit in passing by this town.

Jesus had introduced the “Lord’s Supper” as part of the Passover, at the beginning of
the annual “days of unleavened bread.” No longer need they kill lambs or eat the roasted
body of Passover lambs, after Christ, our Passover, had been once slain for us.
Yet the Passover was ordained forever (Exodus 12:24).

At His last Passover supper, Jesus substituted the wine as the emblem of His blood,
instead of the blood of the slain lamb. He substituted the unleavened bread for
the roast body of the lamb as the symbol of His body, broken for us.

The disciples continued to observe the Passover annually, now in the form of
“the Lord’s Supper” using only the bread and wine, as a memorial (1 Corinthians 11:24)
of Christ’s death (1 Corinthians 11:26), showing His death till He comes again.
They continued to observe the Days of Unleavened Bread (Acts 20:6).

This year they had observed the Days of Unleavened Bread and the “Communion” service
at Philippi, after which they came to Troas in five days, where they remained seven days.

After the Sabbath day had ended, at sunset, “upon the first day of the week…
the disciples came together to break bread.”

People have assumed this expression to mean the taking of “Communion.”

But notice! Paul preached, and continued preaching until midnight. They had no opportunity
to stop and “break bread” until then. When Paul “therefore was come up again”—after restoring
the one who had fallen down from the third balcony“and had broken bread, and eaten” Acts 20:11

Note it! “roken bread, and eaten.” This breaking bread was not Communion

—it was simply eating a meal. This expression was commonly used of old to designate a meal.
It still is used in that sense in parts of even the United States.

Notice Luke 22:16, where Jesus was introducing the Lord’s Supper, taking it with His disciples.
He said, “I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Yet, the day after His resurrection, after walking with the two disciples to Emmaus,
“…?as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them” (Luke 24:30).

Here Jesus “brake bread,” but it was not the Lord’s Supper,
which He said He would not take again. It was a meal—“he sat at meat.”

Notice Acts 2:46. The disciples, “continuing daily with one accord in the temple,
and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness?.…”

Here again, “breaking bread” means eating a meal. Not on the first day of the week, but daily.

Again, when Paul was shipwrecked on the voyage to Rome, the sailors had been fasting out
of fright. But “Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day
that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.

Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health?.… And when he had thus spoken,
he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it,
he began to eat” (Acts 27:33-35).
Here Paul broke bread to give to unconverted sailors who were hungry.

The truth is, nowhere in the Bible is the expression “breaking of bread,” or “to break bread,”
used to signify observance of “the Lord’s Supper.” In all these texts it means, simply, eating a meal.

So, when we read in Acts 20:7, 11, “the disciples came together to break bread,”
and how Paul had “broken bread, and eaten,” we know by Scripture interpretation
it referred only to eating food as a meal, not to a Communion service.

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

(Flob)

You'd have to point out the specific word that your are reading as ..."reality" ...
It's really a simple request, Flob, just point this word out to me, because I'm unable to find it?

(Flob)
It's the New Testament, robin. Not types and figures, shadows. But reality ...

(Robin)
Perhaps I was unclear, I'm not asking for your testimony, I'm just asking you to point out the word
in this verse (2:17) that you think says ..."reality" ...

(Flob)
...This is perhaps why pearl shouldn't be fed to you, at this stage of your life.

(Robin)
You know nothing about the "stage" of my life ...

Sort of gather from this that you might be calling me a swine? (Matt 7:6) ... But those pearls were being cast before the swine, not fed to them! Said pearls being symbolic of Godly wisdom, which the swines were apt to walk on, and then attack the person giving out the pearls of wisdom ... whose doing the attacking, here?
All I ask, Flob, was to "show me the money!" ... show me the pearl ... the word, in this verse, that you think says reality?

(Flob)
John 14:6 cited, and now quoted:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality
and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

(Robin)
Actually, the word there in John 14:6 is "alhyeia" (0225;N-NSF) ... "a truth" ...
So it's apparent that "reality" escapes you.

Pearls of wisdom this aint ...

flob · Jun 30, 2015

alethia. Truth. Reality. Are you familiar with the meaning of truth? Familiar with the meaning of reality?

Col 2: the body is Christ. The shadows........are shadows. Shadows of the body.
If you stand in the light, then your body makes a shadow. The reality, however, is not the shadow.
But you. The word 'alethia' isn't in the Col verse. Rather there's a picture, of shadows and a body.

I can know about you from your words, can I Robin? If you don't want to be known, don't speak.
What is the difference between truth and reality, Robin?
The Sabbath day is a shadow. Of Christ Jesus. The God who is man. And who told you and me to come to Him for rest

flob · Jun 30, 2015

I apologize for judging you Robin. Please forgive me if you will. I was sloppy in reading your first and following posts. They vaguely resembled a Judaizing Sabbath-keeping argument I heard once. So, carelessly, I leapt to the conclusion that you were saying the same thing. I'm wrong and I'm sorry. Sorry too for calling you a pig in that regard. I see now you are simply enjoying analyzing the language of this Scripture.

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

(Posthuman)
how about letting Paul clarify Paul?
whatever you settle on after all the consternation with Colossians 2:16-17
needs to jive with Romans 14:5-6

(Robin)
A true pearl of wisdom ...

But like my Grandad always said, "Leave no dead horse unbeaten" ...
So let's take yet another look at the words in Col 2:17:

2:17* ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα χριστοῦ.
ha estin skia tOn mellontOn to de sOma christou
"(which [things] a shadow it be of the [things] about-being), yet the body [is] of Anointed."

Please notice that I have listened ... to our English friend Valiant, mostly ... and adjustedthe syntax (word order) of the conjuncton "yet," and am allowing for the ellipisi of the extraverb ..."[is]" ... However, the fact remains that ..."of Christ" ..."of Anointed" ... is genitive;that is, even though I've had to adjust my thinking on these two points, this verse stilldoes ...NOT... say that "the body is Christ," nor that "the reality is Christ" ... and although Valiant does, in fact, have some very good points about Christ not being just the Head, it does ...NOT ...say here, that ..."the body equates to Christ"... but rather, that ..."the body is OF Christ" ...

But moving right along, let's beat to death yet another word from this verse ..."mellontOn""of about-being" (#3195 V-PAP-GPN)Up to this point, I do believe that we've all been in some agreement (of sorts) about this verb meaningsomething impending or "coming to be" ... I've been reading it as "of about-being" ...

In the "Word Study Dictionary" by Zodhiates ...he says, "to be about, or to do, or to suffer something; to be at the point of, to be impending ... implies duration or translentness ...Also as implying purpose, meaning to have in mind, intent, will ... meaning ought, should, must, as implying necessity in accordance with the nature of things or with the divine appointment and therefore certain, destined to take place ..There are a number of other things that Zodhiates says, but take a closer look at what he's said so far ...There is, indeed, the mentioned meaning of "impending" ... but note, too, the other flavors of this word:.a) implying purpose, meaning to have in mind, intentb) in accordance with the nature of things

Do you suppose that we might be misunderstanding how this verb is intended, in this verse;that is, suppose we put aside, for the moment, the more common understand of this talking to something coming, and think of it as meaning, here, in this verse as talking to "purpose," intent;"and "in accordance with the nature of things" ....

Looking agian at the participle "mellontOn," notice that it's plural genitive ... as is the preceading article "tOn" "of the [things]" (#3588 T-GPN); that is ..."of the [things] about-being" ...

But what if we dont mentally hear this as saying "the things being about to happen,"but rather we perceive it saying "the things implying" ... "the things intending" ..."the things in accordance with the nature of" ... ...

"(which [things], a shadow it be of the [things] intending)" ...

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

flob said:

(Robin)
Truth is that which is not a lie.
Reality is the part of truth which is a derivative of that truth that belies the premise of the truth.

The difference between truth and reality is the difference between fact and perception.

phil112 · Jun 30, 2015

robinriley said:

Where did you come up with that definition?
Perception can be reality. Perception can also be a false view.

You need to study the bible more. You try to make the word more complex than it is. It is quite simple, at its heart.
Parsing scripture can be, and indeed is, harmful the way you do it.

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Folks like you and Jason like to present bible as something you know more about than others, and you dismiss the fact that anyone that studies the word can be fluent in its' understanding. It profits no one for people to pretend that bible doctrine is difficult to understand.

KennethC · Jun 30, 2015

prove-all said:

What is your point?
Because you keep wanting to bend around the fact that the first day of the week is Sunday, and this is when the disciples and Paul gathered in the upper room where Paul preached to them. Now you are trying to say he was only giving last minute instructions, which there is no indication that is what he was doing. Paul could have been telling them the sermon on the mount that Jesus gave for all we know, for it does not say what all Paul preached to them on.....

The gathering, preaching by Paul all took place in this verse on Sunday.....................

Mac4Yuma · Jun 30, 2015

prove-all said:

The many just find it hard to see the light some of them are very sincere and at some time they will understand. wen I posted about Jesus dyeing Wednesday afternoon I had to explain what you are now doing but I was on a Delphi forum and only just a few finally saw the light.

Sabbath was over at sunset and the next day had or is starting.

Take Care

Mac.

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

phil112 said:

Truth is that which is not a lie.
Reality is the part of truth which is a derivative of that truth that belies the premise of the truth.
The difference between truth and reality is the difference between fact and perception.

(Phil112)
Where did you come up with that definition?

(Robin)
Rhetorical question ... right?

(Phil112)
You need to study the bible more.

(Robin)
Perhaps ...but it would be interesting to know where you came by this perception?

(Phil112)
You try to make the word more complex than it is.

(Robin)
Actually Phil, I don't ... I just attempt to see it more closely.
The fact /truth of the matter, is it's even more complex than you and I will ever know, in this lifetime.

(Phil112)
It is quite simple, at its heart.

(Robin)
It's God-breathed, that's the truth ...
The perception that it's simple, would have to be elaborated on ... 8>

(Phil112)
Parsing scripture can be, and indeed is, harmful ...

(Robin)
You do understand ...right ...
that just LOOKING closer at a word's construction, doesn't CHANGE the word's reality?

(Phil112)
...is harmful, the way you do it.

(Robin)
Perception can be reality. Perception can also be a false view. 8>

(Phil112)
...through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2Cor 11:3)

(Robin)
Ahhh, an effort to elaborate;
so let's see where you go with this, Phil ...You're quoting from the KJV ... right?
Young's translation also uses "simplicity," here, for the Greek word "haplotEtos" (#0572 N-GSF);
a uniquely Paulien word; appears four other times in this epistle, once in Romans, once in Ephesians,
and once in Colossians, the epistle where this topic thread started out. In fact, I'm surprised that you
didn't go with that Colossian verse (3:22) ...Ummmm, Oh! ... I see why.

(Phil112)
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2Cor 11:3)

(Robin)
Actually, I prefer the Englsih word "deluded" over "beguiled," and "trickery" over "subtilty;"
and dont you think, Phil, that "comprehensions" is the more informative word than "minds" ...
You picked this verse, right, because you're seeing yourself in the role of Eve ("Havah") and
me in the role of .... 8>

But back to your "simplicity" ... "the simplicity" ("tEs haplotEtos") ... Strongs's #0572
Truth being, I found this word a little difficult, in fact, to translate; it's a contracted form of " haplous" (#0573),
or "single." The genitive "haplotEtos" (#0572) means not having an ulterior or double motive; sincerity,
faithfulness; plenitude ... and in various translations it is read as: generosity, frankness, sincerity, wholeheartedness,
singleness, simplicity, and undividedness ...that last (undividedness) is used by the Dabhar (The Writ) translation, and
it's the English reading that I finally setted on for mine.

(Phil112)
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and
ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth,
and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1John 2:27)

(Robin)
I taught first graders, for a year, to read ... these kids are amazingly smart and quick to learn,
especially when you get them involved. No "look Jand, see Spot run" for these kids; by the end of
the year, I had them memorizing poetry, and being able to not only comprehend some of the
mechanics of it, but also able to clearly explain their assigned poems to the rest of the class ...

So then, Phil ... did you, how did you come by the abilty to read, by osmosis?

(Phil)
Folks like you and Jason like to present bible as something you know more about than others ...

(Robin)
Haven't met Jason yet ... sounds like a fellow I could actually learn a few things from.
Not that I'd ever want to corrupt your comprehensions, Phil, but I actually might know
a wee bit about the scriptures ... does that not interest you, at all, the possibility to learn
something new and interesting about God's word, even if it's only some linguistic facts?

(Phil)
... and you dismiss the fact that anyone that studies the word can be fluent in its' understanding.

(Robin)
I try never to dismiss ... I do reach a point; however...sometimes; sometimes quickly, but with others not so quickly;
this point is usually determined by a lack of respect; in the hood where I grew, the lack of respect was never ..."allowed" ...

One of my first grade students, little girl sharp as a tack, once set me back on my heels ... I'd spoken to her "adult-like,"
telling her something along the lines of ..."we dont do this or that" ... and she, then, pointed out to me that there was no
reason for me to be addressing her in the third-person!!! That is, I'd been a little too "adult-like," failing to show due respect.
I think I learned the most in the first grade ... from my students!

(Phil)
... It profits no one, for people to pretend that bible doctrine is difficult to understand.

(Robin)
Perception can be reality. Perception can also be a false view.

How'e you do in first grade, Phil ...
But here's a fact, you would not have made it in my hood, and that's the truth!

Karraster · Jun 30, 2015

Robin, wanted to say I've enjoyed this thread and learned from it..thanks~k

robinriley · Jun 30, 2015

Karraster said:

(Robin)
So, you do like poetry ... what was your first grade teacher like?

But then, we're not YET done with these two verses, our English friend VALIANT has been very helpful, despite his talking at me in the third person, and yet there's still a few things, words, in these verses that we need to look closer at. Sort of amazing how most responses have first come with some preconceived ideas about what this was all about ... some doctrinal agenda, either for or against, when all this was ever intended to do, was brush the rubble off Paul's words; read them for what, exactly, they say.

So now, you might understand why it's taken me over twelve years to compile my own reading of Pauls few letters to us ...
Would that I could have found a good first grade teacher, but God has His ways ... my having to wrestle with this, on my own, almost (God was always there) from the beginning, without even a smidgen of understanding Greek, nor anyone willing to put up with my silly, uneducated questions ...one has to tear muscle down, in order to build it up stronger; God's a rigorous teacher.

Mac4Yuma · Jul 1, 2015

robinriley said:

This is a Discussion Forum not a Theology forum nor even a Bible study Forum plus the Bible does say to reason together with others of like minds and I think I posted one way and you the other and that is fine. It gives the other readers something to think about and then they can go to their Churches to talk it over.

I have been on many forums and playing verse ball has not anywhere even close to what God has said to do.

Mac.

robinriley · Jul 1, 2015

Mac4Yuma said:

(Mac4Yuma)
This is a Discussion Forum not a Theology forum nor even a Bible study Forum ...

(Robin)
You've stepped over the line, right off the get-go ...
You're just an individual, not a forum moderator, so ... YOU DONT REGULATE DISCUSSIONS HERE ... go get your own website!

(Mac4Yuma)
This is a Discussion Forum not a Theology forum nor even a Bible study Forum ...

(Robin)
Must have touch some favored doctrinal issue you were peddling; little touchy, there bud ... worried are you?

(Mac)
the Bible does say to reason together with others of like minds and I think I posted one way and you the other and that is fine ...

(Robin)
And yet you protest me simply asking you to explain why you cant except the linguistic FACTS of this verse ...
That is, if the linguistic FACTS are the issue, you would engage in a discussion, but Nooooo ... you attack!
This speaks for itself, you've exposed yourself ... and it aint pretty!

(Mac)
I have been on many forums and playing verse ball ...

(Robin)
You're playing to the crowd, aren't you, mac ... you think that they are all ignorant, dont you ...
Well, for the most part, they are not as stupid as you'd like them to be ... Fact of the matter, you are the foolish one.

(Mac)
I have been on many forums and playing verse ball has not anywhere even close to what God has said to do.

(Robin)
Ahhhh ... so now, mac, you are God's spokesman ... you, "The Great And Wonderous Oz" ...
You are going to determine what we can and cant openly discuss!

Bottom line, here, silly little man behind the curtain ...
all I sinply ask of you, was to look more carefully at the actual words that Paul, our apostle, actually said ...

It's obvious, that Paul is NOT your apostle,
so you really dont have any say in this at all, but if we were foolish enough to even give you some allowance to be speaking
... I certainly would not be that foolish ...
IF anyone, here, would grace you some allowance to at least be heard ...
... I certainly would not be that foolish ...

Ummm ... oh pish, you dont deserve even that ... go peddle your papers elsewhere.

sparkman · Jul 10, 2015

prove-all said:

As I've said on other forums, it is the Sabbathkeepers who do the judging in this regard.

They constantly try to place believers under the Old Covenant. Paul had the same issue in his day.

Read Galatians 4:21-31. It describes how "children of the flesh" persecute "children of the Spirit".

Compare Colossians 2:16-17 with Hebrews 10:1-2 to see that animal sacrifices are called "shadows" and so are the Sabbaths, Holy Days, and New Moons. The New Covenant does not require these things.

I remember Herbert Armstrong on his program doing the same sorts of things..calling other Christians "so-called Christians" and calling them "dumb sheep going to the slaughter". As a Judaizer, he was practicing the same exact behavior that Paul described concerning them in Galatians.

Colossians 2:16-17

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