Coming in the clouds of heaven

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Sep 4, 2012
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#1
I saw something recently in Matthew 26:64 that I had never seen before.

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:63-64


I had always thought that Jesus was speaking somewhat obliquely, and was referring to the end times when he returns with clouds. Of course, that interpretation reflects the typical myopic, self-centric mindset of modern Christianity. I have read the preterist interpretations that allegorize this passage to mean that Jesus came in the clouds of judgment in 70 AD to destroy Jerusalem. I could somewhat go with that. But as I was reading, the spirit clearly witnessed to me that Jesus was referring to the messianic prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14


Daniel 7:13 and Acts 1:9 are the same event viewed from different vantage points:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9


Caiaphus knew Jesus was referring to the Daniel prophecy, and considered it blasphemy that the despised Nazarene would declare himself the fulfillment of it. Subsequently, the High Priest commanded him to solemnly testify under oath if he was the messiah, and Jesus complied indirectly by telling them that their decision to condemn him would result in the son of man being exalted to the right hand of GOD from which he would execute irremediable judgment upon Jerusalem. Whether Caiaphus personally saw this judgment or not, we don't know. Jesus was speaking before the entire Sanhedrin, some of whom it is likely witnessed this judgment nearly 40 years later. So what Jesus was effectively telling them was that their judgment to condemn him would result in their destruction.

Another interesting facet is that the Hebrew verb translated 'see' in Matthew 26:64 signifies gazing with wide eyes (in astonishment), as those in Jerusalem certainly must done during the Roman siege and the horrific atrocities that occurred within the city during that time.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#2
Acts 1:11 says that two men in white apparel said Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up unto heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go. Mat 26:64 is future not past. The preterist understanding is in error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#3
God's presence was in a cloud in the desert for the Israelites, and in a cloud when Jesus was baptized. I really like the definition of cloud in Heb. 12:1. We shelter each other in our journey, we state God's announcement of Jesus to the world, Jesus ascended into heaven, but still lives in us, if we are part of that cloud of witnesses.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#4
The coming in the clouds verse is interpreted in several ways, Some see it as the when Jesus come back on earth with his saints to make war on the dark forces of the antichrist. Personally when I read this verse I cannot help but remember the verse where people will beg for the mountain to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the lamb. But in my personal opinion I see this verse as Jesus in all his glory and majesty coming in great clouds to collect his saints as everyone watching in awe, wonder and fear
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#5
every time you see cloud you cant interpret it the same.

In judgement like ad 70 coming in the clouds can mean judgement
examples are in OT
Here is just one about judgement on Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1
Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Acts 1:11 has nothing to do with Matthew 26:64 IMO
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#6
Acts 1:11 says that two men in white apparel said Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up unto heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go. Mat 26:64 is future not past. The preterist understanding is in error.
I didn't say anything about Acts 1:11. I agree it is future.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#7
I didn't say anything about Acts 1:11. I agree it is future.
Why on earth would you separate it from Acts 1:9? The two support each other.
I'm not looking for a figurative but a literal fulfillment of the passage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#8
I separate them because Acts 1:9 is past, and Acts 1:11 is future. As of now, they are separated by about 2000 years.

And I think it's indisputable that Acts 1:9 and Daniel 7:13 refer to the same event.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#9
every time you see cloud you cant interpret it the same.

In judgement like ad 70 coming in the clouds can mean judgement
examples are in OT
Here is just one about judgement on Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1
Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Acts 1:11 has nothing to do with Matthew 26:64 IMO
You see the same cloud and interpret it differently? The passage in Acts is not about judgment upon Egypt but the Lords return. Mat 26:64 is future and ties directly with Acts 1:11.
What do you make of Mat 17:1-6?
IMO don't mean diddley. Demonstrate from scripture or go back and study more till you can.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#10
I separate them because Acts 1:9 is past, and Acts 1:11 is future. As of now, they are separated by about 2000 years.

And I think it's indisputable that Acts 1:9 and Daniel 7:13 refer to the same event.
Better link to Daniel 7:13 and Acts 1:11. Distinction in that Acts 1:11 is for the church and Daniel 7:13 is for the Jews. Acts 1:9 is a past event but it points to a future event.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

enoch1nine

Guest
#11
Clouds obscure things and sometimes mimic other things.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#12
I saw something recently in Matthew 26:64 that I had never seen before.

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:63-64


I had always thought that Jesus was speaking somewhat obliquely, and was referring to the end times when he returns with clouds. Of course, that interpretation reflects the typical myopic, self-centric mindset of modern Christianity. I have read the preterist interpretations that allegorize this passage to mean that Jesus came in the clouds of judgment in 70 AD to destroy Jerusalem. I could somewhat go with that. But as I was reading, the spirit clearly witnessed to me that Jesus was referring to the messianic prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14


Daniel 7:13 and Acts 1:9 are the same event viewed from different vantage points:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9


Caiaphus knew Jesus was referring to the Daniel prophecy, and considered it blasphemy that the despised Nazarene would declare himself the fulfillment of it. Subsequently, the High Priest commanded him to solemnly testify under oath if he was the messiah, and Jesus complied indirectly by telling them that their decision to condemn him would result in the son of man being exalted to the right hand of GOD from which he would execute irremediable judgment upon Jerusalem. Whether Caiaphus personally saw this judgment or not, we don't know. Jesus was speaking before the entire Sanhedrin, some of whom it is likely witnessed this judgment nearly 40 years later. So what Jesus was effectively telling them was that their judgment to condemn him would result in their destruction.

Another interesting facet is that the Hebrew verb translated 'see' in Matthew 26:64 signifies gazing with wide eyes (in astonishment), as those in Jerusalem certainly must done during the Roman siege and the horrific atrocities that occurred within the city during that time.
this is incorrect...

if all jesus had said to caiaphas was that he would be 'coming in the clouds of heaven' then your interpretation would be plausible...

however jesus told caiaphas that he would actually -see- him coming in the clouds of heaven...and we know that caiaphas was not in heaven to see jesus' ascension from the heavenly point of view...so jesus was not merely talking about his ascension...

instead jesus was talking about what the angels prophesied in this verse...

acts 1:11..."They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.'"

just as jesus ascended into a cloud at the end of his earthly ministry...he will someday return by descending in heavenly clouds...and -that- is the coming that caiaphas and all of us will see...
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#13
this is incorrect...
if all jesus had said to caiaphas was that he would be 'coming in the clouds of heaven' then your interpretation would be plausible...
however jesus told caiaphas that he would actually -see- him coming in the clouds of heaven...and we know that caiaphas was not in heaven to see jesus' ascension from the heavenly point of view...so jesus was not merely talking about his ascension...
That's rather presumptuous to impose that kind of limitation on the grammar; and it actually renders your interpretation impossible.

Caiaphus (or some of the Sanhedrin, or perhaps Jesus was just referring to that generation) more than likely did see the consequences of his action of condemning Jesus in 70 AD (because Jesus said he, or they, would). But your interpretation of Matthew 26:64 pushes it to the future, when Caiaphus will not be there to see Jesus returning in the clouds of heaven. He will be in the grave until the second resurrection.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#14
Better link to Daniel 7:13 and Acts 1:11. Distinction in that Acts 1:11 is for the church and Daniel 7:13 is for the Jews. Acts 1:9 is a past event but it points to a future event.
Daniel 7:13 was fulfilled nearly 2000 years ago. Acts 1:11 is yet to be fulfilled. Sorry, don't see the linkage.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#15
That's rather presumptuous to impose that kind of limitation on the grammar; and it actually renders your interpretation impossible.

Caiaphus (or some of the Sanhedrin, or perhaps Jesus was just referring to that generation) more than likely did see the consequences of his action of condemning Jesus in 70 AD (because Jesus said he, or they, would). But your interpretation of Matthew 26:64 pushes it to the future, when Caiaphus will not be there to see Jesus returning in the clouds of heaven. He will be in the grave until the second resurrection.
you correctly identified daniel 7:13-14 as being about jesus' ascension from the heavenly point of view...which caiaphas certainly did not see... so this -cannot- be the coming of jesus in the clouds of heaven that caiaphas was going to see...

the premise of your original post is therefore incorrect...are you now changing your argument mid stream?
 
May 18, 2010
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#16
To me, the verse 64 in mat 26, is referring to 2 events, the seated at the right hand on high, and the coming in the clouds, and acts 1:11, is about this same thing, except therein they see him ascending to be on the right hand of the Father, and the angels tell them that He's coming in the clouds in like manner, so obviously this is the same event, i won't go to the isa or dan verses or any of the OT, simply because i'm unskilled therein. Either way He is coming. Though this coming, i don't think refers to the rapture at all, but the wrath of God to be poured out. Which isn't good for the wicked, but finally the righteous will have peace.

Now, if you're going to take acts 1:9 apart from 1:11, than you might as well leave out the part where Jesus said I will be seated at the right hand of the Father, because that's what acts 1:9 was leading up to. Hence the context. And about the clouds translation, either way it's dealing with the Lord coming in the sky, a sky which has clouds, sure there could be a cloud of smoke, or a cloud of smog or a cloud of vapour, but it's going to be in the sky, descending.

I believe that even those who pierced him will see his coming, hence what's read here:

[h=3]Revelation 1:7[/h]New International Version (NIV)

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mournbecause of him.”[b]
So shall it be! Amen.

 
Sep 4, 2012
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#17
you correctly identified daniel 7:13-14 as being about jesus' ascension from the heavenly point of view...which caiaphas certainly did not see... so this -cannot- be the coming of jesus in the clouds of heaven that caiaphas was going to see...
the premise of your original post is therefore incorrect...are you now changing your argument mid stream?
Like I said - you are presumptuous. And you conveniently avoided addressing the glaring error of your interpretation, i.e., that Caiaphus will not be there to see Jesus' return, which renders it impossible. Yet you persist in trying to look right.

OK, let's try this. Caiaphus would have known of only one prophecy that mentioned a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven, and that would have been Daniel 7:13, which he rightly considered to be a messianic prophecy. Caiaphus commanded Jesus to solemnly testify under oath if he was the messiah; and Jesus obeyed (albeit indirectly as he virtually always did) by alluding to that messianic prophecy with the implication that it referred to himself. It was not that Jesus said Caiaphus himself would see the son of man arrive in the clouds of heaven to the throne of GOD, but that he used that prophecy to answer the high priest's question if he was the messiah. That is what enraged Caiaphus so much; he knew exactly what Jesus was implying.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#18
Timeline

  • Acts 1:9 - the son of man leaves from earth in the clouds of heaven
  • Daniel 7:13 - the son of man arrives in the clouds of heaven at the throne of GOD in heaven
  • approx. 2000 years on earth pass (or more)
  • Acts 1:11 - the son of man leaves the throne of GOD in heaven and comes in the clouds of heaven to earth
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#19
Timeline

  • Acts 1:9 - the son of man leaves from earth in the clouds of heaven
  • Daniel 7:13 - the son of man arrives in the clouds of heaven at the throne of GOD in heaven
  • approx. 2000 years on earth pass (or more)
  • Acts 1:11 - the son of man leaves the throne of GOD in heaven and comes in the clouds of heaven to earth
Acts 1:9 Jesus ascends Check we agree.
Acts 1:11 and Daniel 7:13 Jesus returns in the clouds. First to claim His church then to save Israel from destruction. Separated by seven years of tribulation tying Acts and Joel together.
Caiaphus is of no consequence save that he represented apostate Israel who would not see Acts 1:9 but will see Daniel 7.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#20
You see the same cloud and interpret it differently? The passage in Acts is not about judgment upon Egypt but the Lords return. Mat 26:64 is future and ties directly with Acts 1:11.
What do you make of Mat 17:1-6?
IMO don't mean diddley. Demonstrate from scripture or go back and study more till you can.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

IMO which is a term i dont use much, but when i do i mean it...Lose your attitude please
if you want to dialogue with me K?

I see the Acts text at the ascension as a different meaning(yes future)
I see Matt 26 as a judgement as text i gave in Egypts judgement....both coming in the clouds.
Who was Jesus talking to in Matt 26? Those who were illegally trying Him, unbelieving Israelites who had been cursed Matt23
What did He say to them? He said "they" would see it...His coming in the clouds of heaven...70ad ...they certainly
could not see it if it was 2000+ years after their death.