Coming in the clouds of heaven
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R
caiaphas will certainly see jesus' return...the bible says that when jesus returns every eye will see him...and the dead will be raised and judged...caiaphas will see jesus at that point...
jesus was not alluding to daniel 7:13...if that were true then jesus would have been falsely prophesying...caiaphas did not see jesus' arrival in heaven...
jesus was not alluding to daniel 7:13...if that were true then jesus would have been falsely prophesying...caiaphas did not see jesus' arrival in heaven...
A
Rachel....there was a coming to egypt and a coming to babylon both are past
theres a coming in rev to the churches, in judgement by the way, not a physical coming either.
All comings are not the second coming...all cloud verses are not all the second coming.
Im not gona say you have to see it that way...my opinion doesnt come forced by my eschatology club either.
Why on earth would Jesus tell in His trial they would see Him at the second advent? I dont get that at all.
He just pronounced judgement on the city and sanctuary and He told them they would see it...coming
in the clouds meant something to them.
theres a coming in rev to the churches, in judgement by the way, not a physical coming either.
All comings are not the second coming...all cloud verses are not all the second coming.
Im not gona say you have to see it that way...my opinion doesnt come forced by my eschatology club either.
Why on earth would Jesus tell in His trial they would see Him at the second advent? I dont get that at all.
He just pronounced judgement on the city and sanctuary and He told them they would see it...coming
in the clouds meant something to them.
R
comparing old testament usage of the word 'coming' with new testament usage of the word seems like apples and oranges to me...the vocabulary is not the same...one is in hebrew and one is in greek...
i let the new testament define 'coming' for me...greek can define greek much better than hebrew can define greek...jesus' coming is his physically returning to earth in the same way he physically ascended into heaven... and to me the references to clouds in both cases are too coincidental to not be referring to the same thing...
i let the new testament define 'coming' for me...greek can define greek much better than hebrew can define greek...jesus' coming is his physically returning to earth in the same way he physically ascended into heaven... and to me the references to clouds in both cases are too coincidental to not be referring to the same thing...
so abiding, is it rev 1:7 where you think he (the judgement) is coming in the clouds?, that doesn't add up, cause a judgement usually doesn't take the form of a man. nor is it pierced in a way I can think of, I thought the second coming was to judge the nations, if that's what you mean, like 1 co 16:22 insinuates, He that loves not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha, seemingly accursed in his 2nd arrival. and when verse 6 and verse 8 before and after rev 1:7, it speaks about Jesus in specific, and then says behold he cometh in the clouds..., and verse 8, I am Alpha & Omega,... so I just wanted to ask, or is it that you think He will come to judge, and also come again for some other reason... and for some reason I am confused.
A
If i understand your post rev 1:7 is a coming or a judgement but a reference
to a past event fulfilled in John 19:36-37 and ad 70 which goes with Matt 26:64;Zech 12:10;dan7
the other comings i referred to in rev in judgement are rev 2:5; 2:16; 3:3; and these judgements are to His church.
I think Acts 1:10-11 is talking about the second advent at the end of this age.
"taking the form of a man" i didnt understand that part.
to a past event fulfilled in John 19:36-37 and ad 70 which goes with Matt 26:64;Zech 12:10;dan7
the other comings i referred to in rev in judgement are rev 2:5; 2:16; 3:3; and these judgements are to His church.
I think Acts 1:10-11 is talking about the second advent at the end of this age.
"taking the form of a man" i didnt understand that part.
A
yes i know you told your take on Matt 26:64..and letters to the churches He very well called it His coming.
Deal is....all comings are not the second advent end of the age Physical coming
All coming in or with clouds are not references to the second advent.
Matt 24:27
Can Jesus float down from heaven in clouds and also come like lightening at the same time?
Both comings are told to be the same at the second advent...yet both cant be the same...so whats up?
Actually 1 cor 15 tells us He takes "up" to the Father at the second advent
Deal is....all comings are not the second advent end of the age Physical coming
All coming in or with clouds are not references to the second advent.
Matt 24:27
Can Jesus float down from heaven in clouds and also come like lightening at the same time?
Both comings are told to be the same at the second advent...yet both cant be the same...so whats up?
Actually 1 cor 15 tells us He takes "up" to the Father at the second advent
W
Hebrews 12:1
tosgaroun kai echo perikeimai hemin tosoutos nephos martys
there-fore-then also we-are-having laying-aside us so-much-self-same cloud [of] martyrs
Acts 1:11
houto Iesous ho analambano apo hymon eis ouranos
this-self-same Jesus that was-taken-up away-from you to the sky [heaven]
erchomai houtos hos tropos theomai autos poreuo eis ouranos
shall-come this-self-same way [turning?] which you-have-gawked him carried-forth to the sky [heaven]
tosgaroun kai echo perikeimai hemin tosoutos nephos martys
there-fore-then also we-are-having laying-aside us so-much-self-same cloud [of] martyrs
Acts 1:11
houto Iesous ho analambano apo hymon eis ouranos
this-self-same Jesus that was-taken-up away-from you to the sky [heaven]
erchomai houtos hos tropos theomai autos poreuo eis ouranos
shall-come this-self-same way [turning?] which you-have-gawked him carried-forth to the sky [heaven]
"Cloud" in Acts 1 (nephele) is not quite the same word as in Hebrews 12 (nephos), which latter word is somehow more basic & general, implying a cloudy mass of vapor (see below). The former word derives from the latter, they are directly & closely related. i prefer the Preterist perspective, by preponderance of evidence, but a literal reading of Acts 1:11 is challenging to explain away. Hebrews 12:1 could be construed to say, that the Church = cloud-like Presence of God on earth, within which people Spiritually perceive the Presence of Christ, so that the coming of the Church into political power (4th century AD) = coming of "cloud of martyrs" harboring the Presence of Christ = 2nd Coming. Such surprising Spiritual interpretations seemingly abound in the NT, explaining why all the Apostles themselves were perpetually perplexed, by the Scripturally-insightful words of Jesus.
Latin nebula "mist, vapor, fog, smoke, exhalation,"
W
the Word-warrior (Rev 19) is explicitly identified as "king of kings" & "Word of God" = Christ
the Millennium "reign with Christ" (Rev 20) is predicated, upon His appearance, previously
the early Church fathers were predominantly "historical pre-Millennialists"
they expected Christ to return, to reign on earth, for His Davidic Millennium of righteous kingly rule
the Throne of God appears, after the Millennium, post-Millennial. Nowhere is Jesus equated with God, nowhere is the Lamb / Word of God equated to God on His Throne.
[HR][/HR]
Tangentially, from a (possible) preterist perspective, that 2C = Constantine = Council of Nicaea = 4th century AD
the Millennium "reign with Christ" (Rev 20) is predicated, upon His appearance, previously
the early Church fathers were predominantly "historical pre-Millennialists"
they expected Christ to return, to reign on earth, for His Davidic Millennium of righteous kingly rule
the Throne of God appears, after the Millennium, post-Millennial. Nowhere is Jesus equated with God, nowhere is the Lamb / Word of God equated to God on His Throne.
- pre-Millennial = 2C of Christ = Rev 19
- post-Millennial = God on Throne = Rev 20
[HR][/HR]
Tangentially, from a (possible) preterist perspective, that 2C = Constantine = Council of Nicaea = 4th century AD
Q
Nice thread this, "this is my translation from the good news bible hope it helps
mathew 26:57-64 those who had arrested jesus took him to the house of caiaphas the high priest, where the teaches of the law and the elders had gathered togeather. Peter followed from a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest house.
he went into the courtyard and sat down with the guard to see how it would all come out.
The chief priest and the whole council tryed to find somefalse eveidence against jesus to put him to death.
but they could not find any, even know many people came forward and told lies about him.
finaly two men stepped up and said" this man said, i am able to tear down gods temple and three days later build it up again."
the high stood up and said to jesus," have you no answer to give to this accusation against you ?" but jesus kept quiet.
Again the high priest spoke to him," in the name of the living god i now put you on oath: tell us if you are the messiah, the son of god." jesus answerd him," so you say. finished mathew 26:64
mathew 26:57-64 those who had arrested jesus took him to the house of caiaphas the high priest, where the teaches of the law and the elders had gathered togeather. Peter followed from a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest house.
he went into the courtyard and sat down with the guard to see how it would all come out.
The chief priest and the whole council tryed to find somefalse eveidence against jesus to put him to death.
but they could not find any, even know many people came forward and told lies about him.
finaly two men stepped up and said" this man said, i am able to tear down gods temple and three days later build it up again."
the high stood up and said to jesus," have you no answer to give to this accusation against you ?" but jesus kept quiet.
Again the high priest spoke to him," in the name of the living god i now put you on oath: tell us if you are the messiah, the son of god." jesus answerd him," so you say. finished mathew 26:64
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Q
i think jesus saying you will see him in the coming of the clouds means what he was saying when he said he could tear down the temple and three days later rebuild it as in mathew 26:61 and i think it was 3 days befor for he risen after his crucifiction. because jesus allready knew his time was up or nerly up as of the last supper.