Command authority - heresy, blasphemy or sound doctrine
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There is a lie here. The lie or the truth is what is the power of the gospel.
Do you really think it is the power of signs & wonders or the power to set the prison free from sin and death?
Years ago I did not know how emotional closed down I was, how bound to loneliness and emptiness, how anger and bitterness would rise so easily from within. I saw only a small part of my life, and depression and repression was my daily existance.
Now walking with Jesus is being transformed into a kingdom of love and life, where love flows freely. This is the true power of the gospel not a firework display. We are often relationship cripples, not knowing why we behave as we do, but knowing we are loved by Jesus.
Anyone who thinks healing is anything more than doctors do with medicine needs to learn from Jesus about their lostness. Just try and forgive everyone you have a bad feeling about and deal with them as if for the first time. You then will know how far you are from the true walk of maturity.
This is why it is literally a sell out, going for the gifts as if they mean real power, when it is love from the heart that is the gospel and the seal of salvation.
Do you really think it is the power of signs & wonders or the power to set the prison free from sin and death?
Years ago I did not know how emotional closed down I was, how bound to loneliness and emptiness, how anger and bitterness would rise so easily from within. I saw only a small part of my life, and depression and repression was my daily existance.
Now walking with Jesus is being transformed into a kingdom of love and life, where love flows freely. This is the true power of the gospel not a firework display. We are often relationship cripples, not knowing why we behave as we do, but knowing we are loved by Jesus.
Anyone who thinks healing is anything more than doctors do with medicine needs to learn from Jesus about their lostness. Just try and forgive everyone you have a bad feeling about and deal with them as if for the first time. You then will know how far you are from the true walk of maturity.
This is why it is literally a sell out, going for the gifts as if they mean real power, when it is love from the heart that is the gospel and the seal of salvation.
I am sad, very sad.
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15:13
Jesus demonstrated the heart of God, His very nature in dying for us, the mark of the Kingdom, its essence.
Only those who do not know this reality, this heart and truth within, the conviction of sin and failure to raise one step of an authentic act before the Lord, would realise this love is everything.
So many, as demonstrated here on this thread, do not really know Jesus and the destruction sin and hard hearts destroys peoples lives every day in divorces, in family break ups, in wars, in disputes of so many types, in consumer society, in the desire for wealth. But these believers are so in the middle of it all, it is part of being a christian so their is no compromise, it is just a question of faith and who you trust in, like a token or ticket for a train ride, completely superficial.
What people have labelled folly is Paul the apostle
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1 Cor 2:2
The great divide is here and obviously to stay.
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15:13
Jesus demonstrated the heart of God, His very nature in dying for us, the mark of the Kingdom, its essence.
Only those who do not know this reality, this heart and truth within, the conviction of sin and failure to raise one step of an authentic act before the Lord, would realise this love is everything.
So many, as demonstrated here on this thread, do not really know Jesus and the destruction sin and hard hearts destroys peoples lives every day in divorces, in family break ups, in wars, in disputes of so many types, in consumer society, in the desire for wealth. But these believers are so in the middle of it all, it is part of being a christian so their is no compromise, it is just a question of faith and who you trust in, like a token or ticket for a train ride, completely superficial.
What people have labelled folly is Paul the apostle
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1 Cor 2:2
The great divide is here and obviously to stay.
C
Stop being so defensive. This is a conversation amongst Christians and we should be able to debate without getting so upset. I read your post and have read many posts like it. Give me proof the miracles have left. Raising the dead still happens today. There are many accounts of this. Instant healing happens daily and I'm sorry you haven't witnessed this because you are missing out on the Holy Spirit. If you want to live your life without doing what Jesus commanded ALL of us to do then that is your issue.
People are being dishonest.
WOF and the idea we are gods, who have the right to creatively command things into existance?
How many believe this and what would you do with preachers, apostles, prophets who hold to this teaching?
Secondly, saying the Holy Spirit still gives gifts of healing to believers as they pray, rather than as ministries seems widely agreed with, which is where I stand. But the lack of understanding of the core nature of transformation of the heart so love flows seems completely missing, which leads me to suspect most have no real clue what the gospel is really about.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Cor 13:1
That is miracles or signs and wonders without love. This is love, one believer to their neighbours, not just a nice praise meeting and devotion to the Lord but stuff everyone else.
WOF and the idea we are gods, who have the right to creatively command things into existance?
How many believe this and what would you do with preachers, apostles, prophets who hold to this teaching?
Secondly, saying the Holy Spirit still gives gifts of healing to believers as they pray, rather than as ministries seems widely agreed with, which is where I stand. But the lack of understanding of the core nature of transformation of the heart so love flows seems completely missing, which leads me to suspect most have no real clue what the gospel is really about.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Cor 13:1
That is miracles or signs and wonders without love. This is love, one believer to their neighbours, not just a nice praise meeting and devotion to the Lord but stuff everyone else.
G
I read the same post you are responding to. Give me this proof from the post in question please.
Where did he say,"miracles have stopped?"
Where did he say,"healing has stopped?"
Not one person. other than Christ, has been raised from the dead. Jesus Christ is the only person who has been raised from the dead.
Every instance in the word, other than Christ, are people being resuscitated. They returned to their original life and died.
The point is, men are not endowed with these gifts any longer, God does the miracles,the healings.
It is why we see Paul leaving people sick at the end of His life and ministry......Paul had his message established and he no longer needed "proof" of his message. And we have the complete message in His word to us. The word proves itself, we don't need a sign to establish its authority.
Where did he say,"miracles have stopped?"
Where did he say,"healing has stopped?"
Not one person. other than Christ, has been raised from the dead. Jesus Christ is the only person who has been raised from the dead.
Every instance in the word, other than Christ, are people being resuscitated. They returned to their original life and died.
The point is, men are not endowed with these gifts any longer, God does the miracles,the healings.
It is why we see Paul leaving people sick at the end of His life and ministry......Paul had his message established and he no longer needed "proof" of his message. And we have the complete message in His word to us. The word proves itself, we don't need a sign to establish its authority.
V
I say "prove it" and this is what you got? Pretty much proves my point, boyo.
1. You gave no answer here, you just dumped more baseless accusation on the thread.
2. Who's doing a fine job? There is no evidence posted to refute biblically anything I've said and supported biblically! Apparently none of you can find any -- not surprising given there is none.
3. If I'm to be judged by "my own words" when I've backed them up with God's word, I have have no worries.
4. And again you make accusation against God, not me, by claiming my use of biblical proof proves me wrong.
I wouldn't want to be in your shoes at the Bema Seat, brother. You're as bad as your friend here ...
A challenge to proof from a biblical basis is hardly being "defensive" or "upset," though I can imagine this is your viewpoint, that a challenge to your false belief system is about anger, rather than biblical truth. When you have no biblical truth but cling to a false belief, then everyone else must be "angry," not that you could possibly be wrong.
OK, I'm going to break this down for you simply, so you can wrap your head around it and stop misrepresenting what I've said.
1. God does miracles today, just as He always has.
2. The reason God empowered, through Christ, the apostles and their associates was to prove their message coming from Him.
3. There are seven separate and distinct passages/verses quoted in my lengthy OP earlier today proving signs and wonders were exactly of that nature, and that only apostles and their immediate associates performed those signs and wonders. When you provide proof biblically that anyone -- or for that matter all -- believers did do them then, thereafter, or now, I'll listen to your viewpoint. But you have no such verses. Period.
Post one. Just one. I'll be waiting.
Oh, but you are so wrong! And I've never said, "I've never seen ... " any evidence of miracles. You and Jeff and others continue to lie blatantly about that.
I've seen a man healed of brain cancer. But no one laid hands on him. No one prayed loudly and publicly over him. He went to the doctor, got an X-ray and a diagnosis, went home and prayed while awaiting the neurosurgery that would have removed the tumor, returned for said surgery and the X-ray done to show the progress of the growth prior to surgery showed nothing! It was gone. God healed him, and He didn't need some arrogant loud-mouth "full of the 'Holy Spirit and power' " to effect that healing.
There is a man in my Sunday school class who had a horrifying accident on a Colorado mountain two years ago and was, immediately after the accident, a quadriplegic. A group of us drove to the Craig Institute in Denver where he was taken after emergency hospitalization, and yes, we prayed over him, we anointed him with oil, and we continued to pray for him when we went home. FYI, that's what James writes of in chapter five of his epistle, verse fourteen. Today, despite doctors' admonitions that he would "never walk again or have reason motor skills," he is walking with the aid of a cane or walker, has 60% use of his hands, and continues to improve. Again, no loud-mouth arrogant "healer" -- just the pure power of God.
These aren't the "signs and wonders" you love to claim are gifted to you or others. This is God at work. He doesn't always work like this, but He does work, even when we don't understand the outcome, sometimes healing by death, or a ministry for a paraplegic or cancer sufferer who, without healing of the kind you like to claim, nonetheless glorifies God.
I rebuke you in Christ's name for claiming I "live [ . . . ] life without doing what Jesus commanded," because brother, you're truly clueless as to what Jesus commanded. You wouldn't believe the drivel you believe if you did know. Done with you, too.
1. You gave no answer here, you just dumped more baseless accusation on the thread.
2. Who's doing a fine job? There is no evidence posted to refute biblically anything I've said and supported biblically! Apparently none of you can find any -- not surprising given there is none.
3. If I'm to be judged by "my own words" when I've backed them up with God's word, I have have no worries.
4. And again you make accusation against God, not me, by claiming my use of biblical proof proves me wrong.
I wouldn't want to be in your shoes at the Bema Seat, brother. You're as bad as your friend here ...
A challenge to proof from a biblical basis is hardly being "defensive" or "upset," though I can imagine this is your viewpoint, that a challenge to your false belief system is about anger, rather than biblical truth. When you have no biblical truth but cling to a false belief, then everyone else must be "angry," not that you could possibly be wrong.
OK, I'm going to break this down for you simply, so you can wrap your head around it and stop misrepresenting what I've said.
1. God does miracles today, just as He always has.
2. The reason God empowered, through Christ, the apostles and their associates was to prove their message coming from Him.
3. There are seven separate and distinct passages/verses quoted in my lengthy OP earlier today proving signs and wonders were exactly of that nature, and that only apostles and their immediate associates performed those signs and wonders. When you provide proof biblically that anyone -- or for that matter all -- believers did do them then, thereafter, or now, I'll listen to your viewpoint. But you have no such verses. Period.
Post one. Just one. I'll be waiting.
Oh, but you are so wrong! And I've never said, "I've never seen ... " any evidence of miracles. You and Jeff and others continue to lie blatantly about that.
I've seen a man healed of brain cancer. But no one laid hands on him. No one prayed loudly and publicly over him. He went to the doctor, got an X-ray and a diagnosis, went home and prayed while awaiting the neurosurgery that would have removed the tumor, returned for said surgery and the X-ray done to show the progress of the growth prior to surgery showed nothing! It was gone. God healed him, and He didn't need some arrogant loud-mouth "full of the 'Holy Spirit and power' " to effect that healing.
There is a man in my Sunday school class who had a horrifying accident on a Colorado mountain two years ago and was, immediately after the accident, a quadriplegic. A group of us drove to the Craig Institute in Denver where he was taken after emergency hospitalization, and yes, we prayed over him, we anointed him with oil, and we continued to pray for him when we went home. FYI, that's what James writes of in chapter five of his epistle, verse fourteen. Today, despite doctors' admonitions that he would "never walk again or have reason motor skills," he is walking with the aid of a cane or walker, has 60% use of his hands, and continues to improve. Again, no loud-mouth arrogant "healer" -- just the pure power of God.
These aren't the "signs and wonders" you love to claim are gifted to you or others. This is God at work. He doesn't always work like this, but He does work, even when we don't understand the outcome, sometimes healing by death, or a ministry for a paraplegic or cancer sufferer who, without healing of the kind you like to claim, nonetheless glorifies God.
I rebuke you in Christ's name for claiming I "live [ . . . ] life without doing what Jesus commanded," because brother, you're truly clueless as to what Jesus commanded. You wouldn't believe the drivel you believe if you did know. Done with you, too.
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E
well, if someone does not believe, ...
if I don't know what a light switch is for, guess I won't use it
cessationist are...cessationists
don't bother...I'm good with it
I've seen enough on both sides to know that the name of Jesus IS the Name above ALL Names!!!
And God honors the Name of His Son
Amen
if I don't know what a light switch is for, guess I won't use it
cessationist are...cessationists
don't bother...I'm good with it
I've seen enough on both sides to know that the name of Jesus IS the Name above ALL Names!!!
And God honors the Name of His Son
Amen
E
well there was also Lazarus and whole bunch of dead people came out on the tombs when Jesus gave up His spirit...
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[SUP]e[/SUP] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!” Matthew 27
yeah...Paul is in heaven doing a face palm right now...and shaking his head too
I think this is way out of proportion and just a way to induce fear and further malice in denouncing certain Christian leaders who actually preach the truth that we have the authority of Jesus Christ given to us, and who encourage us to know this and walk in it.
We heal in the name of Jesus Christ. I think your opinions are off-kilter in this particular regard.
We heal in the name of Jesus Christ. I think your opinions are off-kilter in this particular regard.
V
If such truth exists in the Bible, I'm sure you can find it and post it, correct? Perhaps you will actually do so? No one else has accepted the challenge. And I caution you as well, your evidence must be complementary to the Scriptures here in my post, to avoid giving the impression the Bible is contradictory in nature.
Again, proof please, that "we" heal in the name of Christ.
Stop "thinking" and "feeling" and prove your point with Scripture. I await your reply.
Again, proof please, that "we" heal in the name of Christ.
Stop "thinking" and "feeling" and prove your point with Scripture. I await your reply.
E
my dad used to say empty barrels make the most noise...I'm sure that is a well known expression anyway...but noisy telemarketers, whoops televangelists...make a lot of noise and it is so easy to name them and sit behind them and cross your arms and legs and say 'so there'
God is real, Jesus is real and the Holy Spirit is real...and they really do real things in real peoples lives
command theology is a new term for me...but of course the meaning behind it is not...some folks just seem to have to dis and disagree with whatever they either can't wrap their minds around or for some reason has eluded them
God does know the heart and that is about all I can understand...however people do judge themselves and forget they are speaking about the Holy Spirit
I feel more like a bystander when all this goes down because I don't know how God does not say 'enough already!'
God is real, Jesus is real and the Holy Spirit is real...and they really do real things in real peoples lives
command theology is a new term for me...but of course the meaning behind it is not...some folks just seem to have to dis and disagree with whatever they either can't wrap their minds around or for some reason has eluded them
God does know the heart and that is about all I can understand...however people do judge themselves and forget they are speaking about the Holy Spirit
I feel more like a bystander when all this goes down because I don't know how God does not say 'enough already!'
I am just sick to the eye teeth with the castigation and condemnation going on concerning many Christian leaders who are being unfairly maligned due to the spirit of envy and malice. However, I guess this is par for the course on nearly every Christian forum site, except for one I know who has a rule saying we cannot denigrate known Christian leaders. I like that rule.
V
It couldn't possibly be a stand for truth, instead of "castigation and condemnation" could it? I guess you'll never be open to the biblical evidence you could be wrong.
However, I guess this is par for the course on nearly every Christian forum site, except for one I know who has a rule saying we cannot denigrate known Christian leaders. I like that rule.[/QUOTE]Who decides who is a "Christian leader" on that site?
And while we're at it, where's the proof I've asked of you, Willie, Jeff, etc.? Surely, as emphatic as you all are about your beliefs, you have a biblical basis for them, right?
However, I guess this is par for the course on nearly every Christian forum site, except for one I know who has a rule saying we cannot denigrate known Christian leaders. I like that rule.[/QUOTE]Who decides who is a "Christian leader" on that site?
And while we're at it, where's the proof I've asked of you, Willie, Jeff, etc.? Surely, as emphatic as you all are about your beliefs, you have a biblical basis for them, right?
E
I think the devil is behind the charge to render the Holy Spirit a name on a page....no I don't look for demons under every rock or expect a donkey to kick em out of a wall
but why else would the ministry of the Holy Spirit be under such attack by BELIEVERS!!!!! I don't care what kind of kooks are out there...false prophets etc...that's nothing new...there were many false prophets in the OT and most of the time it seems no one listened to God...and a good portion of the NT was written to correct error...Galatians, Corinthians
I think people need to have a serious look at the Bible and stop idealizing it...this is a book that does not paint a pretty picture at all...a bigger error is being created in the desire to avoid error
the Holy Spirit has been sent by God to indwell believers as God's gift..to enable us to live the life God calls us to...and that is a life OUTSIDE of the pages of the Bible...in otherwards, the reality of our belief...one thing to think or talk about it and another to actually walk out the door and do it and see God's hand at work...you don't have to have a 'ministry' (I'm getting to hate that word even though I just used it myself)...God wants to use you where you are and that means different things to different people
but why else would the ministry of the Holy Spirit be under such attack by BELIEVERS!!!!! I don't care what kind of kooks are out there...false prophets etc...that's nothing new...there were many false prophets in the OT and most of the time it seems no one listened to God...and a good portion of the NT was written to correct error...Galatians, Corinthians
I think people need to have a serious look at the Bible and stop idealizing it...this is a book that does not paint a pretty picture at all...a bigger error is being created in the desire to avoid error
the Holy Spirit has been sent by God to indwell believers as God's gift..to enable us to live the life God calls us to...and that is a life OUTSIDE of the pages of the Bible...in otherwards, the reality of our belief...one thing to think or talk about it and another to actually walk out the door and do it and see God's hand at work...you don't have to have a 'ministry' (I'm getting to hate that word even though I just used it myself)...God wants to use you where you are and that means different things to different people
V
This an absurd question that does not accurately characterize what we believe who deny the continuation of the miraculous gifts. I defy you to show a single instance, one word, one expressed thought, that says we are attacking "the miistry of the Holy Spirit." That's an absurd and disingenuous notion.
What we "attack," if you must use that word, is the arrogance of those who would claim to be gifted as were the apostles, when the biblical evidence is clear that only those apostles and their immediate associates received such gifts. Again, if you don't believe that to be true, stop ranting about mythical attacks, and post the biblical evidence to the contrary. I've been making that challenge all day long, and no one can post anything to that effect. There must be a reason, right? Like, for instance, there is none!
But it is not a life lived outside the parameters of God's teaching. Again, if you believe I have His teaching wrong, post the biblical evidence to contradict what I said in so many other posts.
Yes, God's hand. Not man's. That is where the error of the so-called "miraculous gifts" you and others insist are for today lies. God doesn't need man to act. He rarely works through men in a way that others could misconstrue as some "magical power" of man, because to do so would distract from His purpose -- He is to be glorified, not His followers.
For the record, anything I've not quoted out of your post is Scripturally in line, or represents a valid view of Christian life for today.
What we "attack," if you must use that word, is the arrogance of those who would claim to be gifted as were the apostles, when the biblical evidence is clear that only those apostles and their immediate associates received such gifts. Again, if you don't believe that to be true, stop ranting about mythical attacks, and post the biblical evidence to the contrary. I've been making that challenge all day long, and no one can post anything to that effect. There must be a reason, right? Like, for instance, there is none!
But it is not a life lived outside the parameters of God's teaching. Again, if you believe I have His teaching wrong, post the biblical evidence to contradict what I said in so many other posts.
Yes, God's hand. Not man's. That is where the error of the so-called "miraculous gifts" you and others insist are for today lies. God doesn't need man to act. He rarely works through men in a way that others could misconstrue as some "magical power" of man, because to do so would distract from His purpose -- He is to be glorified, not His followers.
For the record, anything I've not quoted out of your post is Scripturally in line, or represents a valid view of Christian life for today.