Command authority - heresy, blasphemy or sound doctrine
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VW, where do you get this "gifted" idea from in any of our posts? Personally, I have been used to bring healing to a number of people, but I have not one iota of "gifting" in this area. I just notice needs, and respond to the Spirit's urging to go ahead and step out. Sometimes my inner self is almost screaming "I don't wanna do this! What if they think I'm a nut?" (since it is usually total strangers this happens with) "What if it doesn't work?" (and just as often, it does not work, as the times it does.)
So, I can guarantee you I have no "gifting" to bring healing to someone.
So, I can guarantee you I have no "gifting" to bring healing to someone.
Some believers have a concerted gift of healing over all others and that is where God wants to use them. For the rest of us like yourself, we are commissioned to live the life of ministry to others---to see a need and fill it, and those who are walking in the Spirit know that they can minister healing anytime the need and opportunity arises!
Mark 16:17-18 -- What assurance!
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”
Mark 16:17-18 -- What assurance!
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”
V
Willie, many who have agreed with you make the arrogant claim such as "we heal." That's completely untrue. They do nothing. God heals.
Perhaps, then, we have been knocking heads doctrinally without necessity. I am a bit concerned that you say "it does not work ... " hoping you don't promise that it will.
Take my friend -- his name is Bob -- I mentioned earlier who had the skiing accident. Yes, he is physically recovering, but he's not 100%. He may never be. But where he was and where he is now is nothing short of a miraculous intervention of God. No one did that but God. We were obedient to God's commands, but none of us would dream of taking credit for him walking out of Craig Institute, something his doctors there said would never happen.
Nonetheless, had Bob not made any such miraculous progress, he would nonetheless be "healed." He has said he felt useless and stagnant before the accident. Now, he ministers to others with spinal injuries, he has led many to Christ, and God would have been equally credited with healing had that been the case without the physical recovery.
Many are like those I just mentioned. They insist they heal, they have the power, giving only lip service to God's power while identifying themselves as special -- and maybe they don't even consider that they express themselves in this manner and thus take God's mantle of glory for themselves.
That directly contradicts what we see in the history of the apostles as actually being able to direct the power of God -- Peter and John healing the lame man outside the Temple Gate Beautiful, for example -- does not occur today. It can't. We aren't apostles. We aren't direct acquaintences of apostles. The Bible clearly teaches they were the only ones so gifted. Any claims to that kind of power today are false.
That's what I see in my careful studies. I have a feeling you might be able to agree with that?
Perhaps, then, we have been knocking heads doctrinally without necessity. I am a bit concerned that you say "it does not work ... " hoping you don't promise that it will.
Take my friend -- his name is Bob -- I mentioned earlier who had the skiing accident. Yes, he is physically recovering, but he's not 100%. He may never be. But where he was and where he is now is nothing short of a miraculous intervention of God. No one did that but God. We were obedient to God's commands, but none of us would dream of taking credit for him walking out of Craig Institute, something his doctors there said would never happen.
Nonetheless, had Bob not made any such miraculous progress, he would nonetheless be "healed." He has said he felt useless and stagnant before the accident. Now, he ministers to others with spinal injuries, he has led many to Christ, and God would have been equally credited with healing had that been the case without the physical recovery.
Many are like those I just mentioned. They insist they heal, they have the power, giving only lip service to God's power while identifying themselves as special -- and maybe they don't even consider that they express themselves in this manner and thus take God's mantle of glory for themselves.
That directly contradicts what we see in the history of the apostles as actually being able to direct the power of God -- Peter and John healing the lame man outside the Temple Gate Beautiful, for example -- does not occur today. It can't. We aren't apostles. We aren't direct acquaintences of apostles. The Bible clearly teaches they were the only ones so gifted. Any claims to that kind of power today are false.
That's what I see in my careful studies. I have a feeling you might be able to agree with that?
The bible mentions Healings and Miracles in 1 cor 12 [SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: [SUP]8 [/SUP]for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[SUP][b][/SUP] Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
In Eph 4 the Bible speaks ot the Ministry Gifts [SUP]11 [/SUP]And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, [SUP]13 [/SUP]till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
To deny what is there for the church is to say Jesus left us in a vunarable stated for the enemy to attack which he did not do.
In Eph 4 the Bible speaks ot the Ministry Gifts [SUP]11 [/SUP]And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, [SUP]13 [/SUP]till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
To deny what is there for the church is to say Jesus left us in a vunarable stated for the enemy to attack which he did not do.
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C
I'm not going to apologize for working and not able to respond to you. I don't have the luxury to sit on here all day and punch keys. Maybe I might take the time tonight to do so, but I have a feeling it won't do any good because someone who isn't open to hear the HS isn't going to be open to hearing what I have to say about it no matter how much scripture I throw out.
I know no one (excluding the nuts on TV) who ever say "they" heal anyone. I do, however, know several people who come right out and tell people that God wants to heal them. I don't go that way, and I still am not sure why they do, despite the fact that the "healings" I have seen them help bring do seem to always work.
Personally, I feel that we should respond when we experience that tugging to "go to that person", whether they 'get healed', or not. I believe, for a fact, that there are any number of internal impressions and responses God may have in mind for the recipient when we do as He asks, and go tell the person that we feel God wants us to pray for their situation, and would it be alright with them if we did so.
Even if it may be no more than for them to see that we just accept their scalding rejection when we ask, I believe that might just be the specific thing God may be wanting them to see... both about themselves, and about our unflustered reaction to their anger and irritation.
At some of those times when nothing much happened, I have often seen people express such appreciation that I (or sometimes, we) noticed them and their pain, and cared enough to at least "try" to help them with prayer.
I think we all (us believers in this stuff, and you other guys, too) have a tendency to KNOW what's what in God's world, and how things are "supposed" to work..... and if things don't go down according to our limited understanding, we assume the encounter was a failure. This may not be true, at all. After all if we did not have the Bible to tell us differently, we would be forced to say that we would have to admit we view Jesus' entire ministry as an abject failure.... after all, He got himself killed within three short years, and never made a dime out of it.
Personally, I feel that we should respond when we experience that tugging to "go to that person", whether they 'get healed', or not. I believe, for a fact, that there are any number of internal impressions and responses God may have in mind for the recipient when we do as He asks, and go tell the person that we feel God wants us to pray for their situation, and would it be alright with them if we did so.
Even if it may be no more than for them to see that we just accept their scalding rejection when we ask, I believe that might just be the specific thing God may be wanting them to see... both about themselves, and about our unflustered reaction to their anger and irritation.
At some of those times when nothing much happened, I have often seen people express such appreciation that I (or sometimes, we) noticed them and their pain, and cared enough to at least "try" to help them with prayer.
I think we all (us believers in this stuff, and you other guys, too) have a tendency to KNOW what's what in God's world, and how things are "supposed" to work..... and if things don't go down according to our limited understanding, we assume the encounter was a failure. This may not be true, at all. After all if we did not have the Bible to tell us differently, we would be forced to say that we would have to admit we view Jesus' entire ministry as an abject failure.... after all, He got himself killed within three short years, and never made a dime out of it.
C
You know, like anything in this world there are whacked out people who go overboard and aren't who they say they are. These people put a bad taste in everyone's mouths and when there is someone out there performing miracles they get lumped in with the dishonest ones. I really don't understand why some Christians are disgusted or make fun of the idea of healing. I"ll give a personal example where this happened.
I was having a real bad tooth ache and after a few weeks I decided to see the dentist. They did x-rays and after examining my tooth they said I would need a crown because I had a crack in my tooth. I really didn't want to spend 800 on a crown and at the time really couldn't afford it. I went home and for about three days I prayed on it and God finally told me I knew what needed to be done. Jesus already healed me I just needed to accept this and have faith . I gave praise to God for what He did for me and in a few days my tooth didn't hurt anymore. This was around 4 months ago and I have been without pain in my tooth since.
Now this wasn't a raise the dead type of event but God does heal, even the small little aches we have. Well about a month after my healing I was explaining this to my sister, who is a Christian, and she mocked me and said you will be back to the dentist. I wanted to do what Jesus did with Peter and tell Satan to get behind me BUT I decided to rebuke him in silent. Even family members will attack what they don't know.
I was having a real bad tooth ache and after a few weeks I decided to see the dentist. They did x-rays and after examining my tooth they said I would need a crown because I had a crack in my tooth. I really didn't want to spend 800 on a crown and at the time really couldn't afford it. I went home and for about three days I prayed on it and God finally told me I knew what needed to be done. Jesus already healed me I just needed to accept this and have faith . I gave praise to God for what He did for me and in a few days my tooth didn't hurt anymore. This was around 4 months ago and I have been without pain in my tooth since.
Now this wasn't a raise the dead type of event but God does heal, even the small little aches we have. Well about a month after my healing I was explaining this to my sister, who is a Christian, and she mocked me and said you will be back to the dentist. I wanted to do what Jesus did with Peter and tell Satan to get behind me BUT I decided to rebuke him in silent. Even family members will attack what they don't know.
V
I could identify at least one member on the board here who said, blatantly and apparently with conviction, "we heal ... " while giving no credit in the same breath to God except as an afterthought, but I won't bother. It isn't constructive.
I agree, when we feel God's tug on our shirt sleeve to go, we must go. We are disobedient otherwise. I think of the man who approached Penn Jillette after a show in Vegas to give him a Bible. It touched Jillette to his core, and though even now, six years after he posted this video, he still says he is an atheist, one can tell the gift shook his conviction.
[video=youtube;6md638smQd8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8[/video]
That is truly a move of the Holy Spirit. Would Jillette be "on the fence" if that man had not come to him? Would God have sent someone else if he had refused the call? Useless questions, because the fact is, the man did answer the call, and Jillette is "on the fence" and God will use that to whatever purpose He has, even if Jillette never confesses Christ.
This is what the Gospel witness is about. God doesn't need ostentatious displays to confirm His work and His word. It is the humility, the love, and the courage shown by this unknown businessman who dared approach a famous atheist like Penn Jillette that is the true work of God. Yes, God can put languages in our mouths we do not know, or He can command us to touch someone who needs His healing. Both are miracles that are difficult to ignore.
He can just as easily bring someone to the unbeliever who knows his native tongue, and He can provide "healing" in the form of CPR administered to a heart attack victim lying on a New York sidewalk. Those, too, are miracles in the spirit and mind of the one who benefits, and either way, it is God who is glorified, not the bringer of the message or the supplier of the hands.
Personally I believe He is far more likely to work in the latter forms than He is in the former. Either way, brother, the Holy Spirit is at work. God bless.
I agree, when we feel God's tug on our shirt sleeve to go, we must go. We are disobedient otherwise. I think of the man who approached Penn Jillette after a show in Vegas to give him a Bible. It touched Jillette to his core, and though even now, six years after he posted this video, he still says he is an atheist, one can tell the gift shook his conviction.
[video=youtube;6md638smQd8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8[/video]
That is truly a move of the Holy Spirit. Would Jillette be "on the fence" if that man had not come to him? Would God have sent someone else if he had refused the call? Useless questions, because the fact is, the man did answer the call, and Jillette is "on the fence" and God will use that to whatever purpose He has, even if Jillette never confesses Christ.
This is what the Gospel witness is about. God doesn't need ostentatious displays to confirm His work and His word. It is the humility, the love, and the courage shown by this unknown businessman who dared approach a famous atheist like Penn Jillette that is the true work of God. Yes, God can put languages in our mouths we do not know, or He can command us to touch someone who needs His healing. Both are miracles that are difficult to ignore.
He can just as easily bring someone to the unbeliever who knows his native tongue, and He can provide "healing" in the form of CPR administered to a heart attack victim lying on a New York sidewalk. Those, too, are miracles in the spirit and mind of the one who benefits, and either way, it is God who is glorified, not the bringer of the message or the supplier of the hands.
Personally I believe He is far more likely to work in the latter forms than He is in the former. Either way, brother, the Holy Spirit is at work. God bless.
C
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
Mark 16:17-20
Mark 16:17-20
V
>>Sigh<<
One, who is "they"? You? Me? No. The Apostles.
Two, these:
You disregard Scripture and attempt to make other Scripture contradict it to prove you point. That's heretical. The Bible does not contradict itself. If it says "they did signs and wonders" you have to know who "they" is. It's obvious. Yet you continue to deny. So I challenge you again. Prove me wrong through Scripture. This effort failed. So will all your others. There is no such proof.
One, who is "they"? You? Me? No. The Apostles.
Two, these:
- Acts 8:6 -- And Stephen [an associate of the remaining original Twelve], full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
- Acts 2:43 -- “…and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles”
- Acts 5:12: “And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.”
- Acts 14:3: Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their [the apostles’] hands.”
You disregard Scripture and attempt to make other Scripture contradict it to prove you point. That's heretical. The Bible does not contradict itself. If it says "they did signs and wonders" you have to know who "they" is. It's obvious. Yet you continue to deny. So I challenge you again. Prove me wrong through Scripture. This effort failed. So will all your others. There is no such proof.
V
Prove it, Fancy. Prove it! Who is "they"? Is Stephen alive? Are the apostles alive? Prove it! Making baseless claims is not proof. Show me how "they" "the apostles" "Stephen" "Philip" etc. magically becomes "all believers." If you "know" this to be true, you have the Scripture and the exegesis to prove it, so do so, or be silent.
C
You just added to scripture by adding [the apostles'] I looked at a lot of versions and don't see that added to any of them. You are acting just as you are accusing me of acting. I provided you scripture that refuted your post almost word of word on what you said God doesn't do. You still have yet to provide scripture that states "healing stopped with the apostles."
V
You're simply a liar who pays no attention to what I've said. No where have I claimed "powerlessness," You have a singular concept in mind regarding what "the power of the Holy Spirit" is, and it isn't biblical. Presented evidence that you are wrong, you avoid it, ignore it, or mischaracterize it -- that's called a "straw man argument" -- so you can appear to "respond" to it, the reality being you don't want to be confronted with Truth.
No, He does not. The Holy Spirit does the work of Christ. He occasionally uses human instruments, but not in the ostentatious ways you would prefer. You have no power. God has power. He dispenses it as He sees fit, and does not allow you to "direct" that power from Him to others. Your doctrine is heresy.
I rest my case. The teachings of the Charismatic and Pentecostal Movement are false and not taught by the Word of God. The Bible teaches about two ministries of the Holy Spirit: the first is the Baptism or Indwelling of the new believer by the Holy Spirit. That indwelling is the only baptism in the Spirit available to believers The second is the Filling of the Holy Spirit. These are two different and distinct ministries. Whereas the believer is not told to be baptized with the Spirit -- he/she doesn't need to be told to be baptized with the Spirit because his/her belief has baptized him/her from the moment faith takes root -- he/she is told that he is to filled with the Spirit.
Please take note it doesn't say to "speak with one another in tongues and prophecies or healings and knowledge." That's because we are to speak to one another soberly and sensibly.This verse instructs us not to be drunk with wine, which is excess; but be filled with the Spirit. The verse is using the example of one being drunk or under the control of alcohol to similarly illustrate that a Christian should let himself be controlled by the Holy Spirit. Not drunk on him/herself, either, which is what all that nonsensical exhibitionism is about. I keep posting Scripture, and you keep posting gibberish, straw men, and lies. Makes me and others wonder why I bother.
No, He does not. The Holy Spirit does the work of Christ. He occasionally uses human instruments, but not in the ostentatious ways you would prefer. You have no power. God has power. He dispenses it as He sees fit, and does not allow you to "direct" that power from Him to others. Your doctrine is heresy.
I rest my case. The teachings of the Charismatic and Pentecostal Movement are false and not taught by the Word of God. The Bible teaches about two ministries of the Holy Spirit: the first is the Baptism or Indwelling of the new believer by the Holy Spirit. That indwelling is the only baptism in the Spirit available to believers The second is the Filling of the Holy Spirit. These are two different and distinct ministries. Whereas the believer is not told to be baptized with the Spirit -- he/she doesn't need to be told to be baptized with the Spirit because his/her belief has baptized him/her from the moment faith takes root -- he/she is told that he is to filled with the Spirit.
Ephesians 5, NASB
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Please take note it doesn't say to "speak with one another in tongues and prophecies or healings and knowledge." That's because we are to speak to one another soberly and sensibly.This verse instructs us not to be drunk with wine, which is excess; but be filled with the Spirit. The verse is using the example of one being drunk or under the control of alcohol to similarly illustrate that a Christian should let himself be controlled by the Holy Spirit. Not drunk on him/herself, either, which is what all that nonsensical exhibitionism is about. I keep posting Scripture, and you keep posting gibberish, straw men, and lies. Makes me and others wonder why I bother.
Well, your delivery is less than exemplary, isn't it? Calling me a liar is vile speech, when you have no clue about me.
All I can say to you is: Know the Word.
I never claim to have any power, but I am empowered by Holy Spirit to do the works of Christ. As for influencing others, the laying on of hands is one way to impart the anointing to someone else.
That can only be good. Have a nice evening.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is another (mostly subsequent to salvation) experience with God for the believer.Read Acts.
Those who have been baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit can be continuously filled. You have a very skewed idea of the power of God available to His children.
I never post gibberish. You post lies, and do a bit of hurling, to boot. Why do you bother?