Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him
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Regarding the claim above, consider what is said regarding the time of God's wrath and the great tribulation saints"
"Never again will they hunger,
and never will they thirst;
nor will the sun beat down upon them,
nor any scorching heat."
Never again will they hunger:
This would be indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse, where because of the shortage of food there will be world-wide famine, which will also affect the great tribulation saints. It would also be because the first and third trumpets, where a third of the trees are burned up (which would include fruit trees), as well as the second trumpet where a third of the fish over all the earth are killed, causing great food shortages, which would also affect the great tribulation saints.
Never will they thirst:
This would be indicative of the third trumpet where that star like a giant torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water causing many people to die from drinking it. This would also include the results of the second and third bowl judgments, where all of the oceans and fresh water is turned into literal blood. The GTS will also suffer from the lack of water.
Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat:
The above is referring to the fourth bowl, where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat and searing them. This would also include the GTS simply because they will be on the earth.
This is in fact the reason why Jesus and the apostles tell us to watch and be ready and not turning back to live according to the sinful nature and back to the world, so that "that day" will not close on us like a trap" for it will come upon all those living on the face of the whole earth. (Luke 21:34-36)
Not only will the great tribulation saints be exposed to God's wrath, but they will also be exposed to the beast and his kingdom while at the same time, keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and not worshiping the beast, his image nor receiving his mark.
It is because of God's coming wrath and eternal life, that Jesus wants people to believe and escape that time period. For during that time, no one will be excluded. The only wrath that the GTS will not suffer from, will be the first bowl judgment, which results in painful, ugly sores breaking out on those who receive the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. Since the GTS won't have the mark nor will they be worshiping his image, then this bowl judgment will not affect them.
Well actually, they were concerned that they had missed the gathering and that because there were false teachers saying that "the day of the Lord" had come. Since the day of the Lord, which is time of God's wrath, takes place after the gathering, then that is what they were concerned about.
I wish I could have seen the letter that the Thessalonians had written to Paul, which is what moved him to write his letter in response.
When Paul was with previously with them, he taught them all of this information regarding our being gathered to the Lord which would then be followed by God's wrath and the man of lawlessness. So, they knew the chronological order of events with the gathering taking place first and God's wrath, with the man of lawlessness to follow. Therefore, when those false teachers began teaching that the day of the Lord had already begun, their concern was 1). that they had missed the gathering and 2). that the wrath of God was next and they would be exposed to it. The fact that they received a letter back from Paul, even without opening it, would have been a relief, because it would mean that he was still on the earth, demonstrating that the gathering had not yet taken place.
"Never again will they hunger,
and never will they thirst;
nor will the sun beat down upon them,
nor any scorching heat."
Never again will they hunger:
This would be indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse, where because of the shortage of food there will be world-wide famine, which will also affect the great tribulation saints. It would also be because the first and third trumpets, where a third of the trees are burned up (which would include fruit trees), as well as the second trumpet where a third of the fish over all the earth are killed, causing great food shortages, which would also affect the great tribulation saints.
Never will they thirst:
This would be indicative of the third trumpet where that star like a giant torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water causing many people to die from drinking it. This would also include the results of the second and third bowl judgments, where all of the oceans and fresh water is turned into literal blood. The GTS will also suffer from the lack of water.
Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat:
The above is referring to the fourth bowl, where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat and searing them. This would also include the GTS simply because they will be on the earth.
This is in fact the reason why Jesus and the apostles tell us to watch and be ready and not turning back to live according to the sinful nature and back to the world, so that "that day" will not close on us like a trap" for it will come upon all those living on the face of the whole earth. (Luke 21:34-36)
Not only will the great tribulation saints be exposed to God's wrath, but they will also be exposed to the beast and his kingdom while at the same time, keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and not worshiping the beast, his image nor receiving his mark.
It is because of God's coming wrath and eternal life, that Jesus wants people to believe and escape that time period. For during that time, no one will be excluded. The only wrath that the GTS will not suffer from, will be the first bowl judgment, which results in painful, ugly sores breaking out on those who receive the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. Since the GTS won't have the mark nor will they be worshiping his image, then this bowl judgment will not affect them.
Well actually, they were concerned that they had missed the gathering and that because there were false teachers saying that "the day of the Lord" had come. Since the day of the Lord, which is time of God's wrath, takes place after the gathering, then that is what they were concerned about.
I wish I could have seen the letter that the Thessalonians had written to Paul, which is what moved him to write his letter in response.
When Paul was with previously with them, he taught them all of this information regarding our being gathered to the Lord which would then be followed by God's wrath and the man of lawlessness. So, they knew the chronological order of events with the gathering taking place first and God's wrath, with the man of lawlessness to follow. Therefore, when those false teachers began teaching that the day of the Lord had already begun, their concern was 1). that they had missed the gathering and 2). that the wrath of God was next and they would be exposed to it. The fact that they received a letter back from Paul, even without opening it, would have been a relief, because it would mean that he was still on the earth, demonstrating that the gathering had not yet taken place.
To your last question probably not much other than many equate them to one and the same event and some reject the verbiage that states clearly the wrath of God has arrived at the 7th trump while peddling the wrath as being here based upon the words of humanity found hiding in the caves, dens etc. at the 6th seal....I will go witjj the announcement made in heaven, before the throne at the 7th trump over the views of lost men hiding.....
As far as the first question....there is evidence that....
a. The remanant of the Jewish people and possibly some Gentiles that make it all the way through in their physical bodies repopulate the waste cities of the planet......For sure the Jewish remnant and possibly some remnant of the Gentile nations
As far as the first question....there is evidence that....
a. The remanant of the Jewish people and possibly some Gentiles that make it all the way through in their physical bodies repopulate the waste cities of the planet......For sure the Jewish remnant and possibly some remnant of the Gentile nations
None of the proposals about the order of events in the Trib conflict with well established doctrine concerning the Rapture at the end of the Church Age. While you guys are busy splitting your hair over theories about Trib, I'm going to be getting ready for a wedding upstairs
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
The Bible means what is says, and that is the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin reveals himself to the world.
And this falling away is not concerning the Church, for the Church cannot fall away, for the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, and Jesus said the hypocrites do not belong to the Church, and Him.
This falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the nations came together and tried to establish peace on earth, and stopped the preaching of the Gospel worldwide.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
New Age movement, false interpretation of the Bible based on evolution, and people can still evolve, Jesus not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher, and do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The time will come when the world will not endure the truth, but want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement to be able to evolve, and be greater, and spiritual.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
When the man of sin establishes peace in the Middle East, the nations will come together and try to establish peace on earth, and the 7 years period will begin.
Paul said the saints will not be deceived when the nations come together for they will know it is not of God, and not the truth for the course of the world, so the saints are on earth when the 7 years period starts.
Since they stop the Gospel from being preached during the first half the saints are still on earth, and repentance, and salvation are still available to the world, so the saints will remain on earth for the first half.
At the end of the first half will be the falling away, when the transgressors are come to the full, and then a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, and deceive all people who do not love God, and then the saints can be gathered unto Christ, for when they take the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The end is when the Son delivers up the kingdom to the Father, and puts down all rule and all authority and power, but if it is pre 7 years period then He did not put down their power for they still continue for 7 years.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Also the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, for repentance, and salvation, is available to the world for the first three and one half years, so God's wrath would not there while they still have a chance to be saved.
And after the beast addresses the world he has power to continue for three and one half years, the last half, and power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, which this power can only come from God, so the wrath of God would not be in the last half for he is giving the beast power to rule for the last half.
It would make no sense for God's wrath to be in the first half when he has not given up on the world yet, for they still have a chance at salvation.
And it would not make sense for God's wrath to be in the last half if He is giving the beast power to rule over the nations for the last half.
The trumpets are not the wrath of God, but warning to turn to God, which after the 6 trumpet they do not so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.
God's wrath is not until the 7 years period is over, for He is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Also the hypocrites shall not be caught up in the resurrection, and once the door is shut then no Gentile can enter after that.
But during the first half the Gentiles still have a chance at salvation, so if it is pre 7 years, how can the Gentiles be saved.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, which is when they take the mark of the beast, which is in the middle, so salvation is still available to the Gentiles during the first half, so the resurrection cannot be pre 7 years period.
If it is pre 7 years period there is no tribulation Gentile saint.
Also Israel is blinded in part for the first half, and Israel is protected for the 7 years period, and the Jews are all back on their land by the Middle East peace treaty, for the Gentile nations will see to it, and the man of sin wants them all on their land, and the great tribulation is not until the last half, but Israel only started being witnessed to by the 2 witnesses concerning the truth at the beginning of the last half, for the fulness of the Gentiles came.
And the beast makes war against the saints worldwide, for the greatest persecution ever in history would not be only against Israel, and they are protected for the 7 years period from physical attack, so it has to be worldwide, so it is against the Gentiles, and any Jews that are with Christ when the last half starts.
But there can be no Gentile saints to be persecuted if it is a pre 7 years resurrection.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
The Bible means what is says, and that is the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin reveals himself to the world.
And this falling away is not concerning the Church, for the Church cannot fall away, for the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, and Jesus said the hypocrites do not belong to the Church, and Him.
This falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the nations came together and tried to establish peace on earth, and stopped the preaching of the Gospel worldwide.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
New Age movement, false interpretation of the Bible based on evolution, and people can still evolve, Jesus not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher, and do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The time will come when the world will not endure the truth, but want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement to be able to evolve, and be greater, and spiritual.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
When the man of sin establishes peace in the Middle East, the nations will come together and try to establish peace on earth, and the 7 years period will begin.
Paul said the saints will not be deceived when the nations come together for they will know it is not of God, and not the truth for the course of the world, so the saints are on earth when the 7 years period starts.
Since they stop the Gospel from being preached during the first half the saints are still on earth, and repentance, and salvation are still available to the world, so the saints will remain on earth for the first half.
At the end of the first half will be the falling away, when the transgressors are come to the full, and then a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, and deceive all people who do not love God, and then the saints can be gathered unto Christ, for when they take the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The end is when the Son delivers up the kingdom to the Father, and puts down all rule and all authority and power, but if it is pre 7 years period then He did not put down their power for they still continue for 7 years.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Also the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, for repentance, and salvation, is available to the world for the first three and one half years, so God's wrath would not there while they still have a chance to be saved.
And after the beast addresses the world he has power to continue for three and one half years, the last half, and power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, which this power can only come from God, so the wrath of God would not be in the last half for he is giving the beast power to rule for the last half.
It would make no sense for God's wrath to be in the first half when he has not given up on the world yet, for they still have a chance at salvation.
And it would not make sense for God's wrath to be in the last half if He is giving the beast power to rule over the nations for the last half.
The trumpets are not the wrath of God, but warning to turn to God, which after the 6 trumpet they do not so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.
God's wrath is not until the 7 years period is over, for He is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Also the hypocrites shall not be caught up in the resurrection, and once the door is shut then no Gentile can enter after that.
But during the first half the Gentiles still have a chance at salvation, so if it is pre 7 years, how can the Gentiles be saved.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, which is when they take the mark of the beast, which is in the middle, so salvation is still available to the Gentiles during the first half, so the resurrection cannot be pre 7 years period.
If it is pre 7 years period there is no tribulation Gentile saint.
Also Israel is blinded in part for the first half, and Israel is protected for the 7 years period, and the Jews are all back on their land by the Middle East peace treaty, for the Gentile nations will see to it, and the man of sin wants them all on their land, and the great tribulation is not until the last half, but Israel only started being witnessed to by the 2 witnesses concerning the truth at the beginning of the last half, for the fulness of the Gentiles came.
And the beast makes war against the saints worldwide, for the greatest persecution ever in history would not be only against Israel, and they are protected for the 7 years period from physical attack, so it has to be worldwide, so it is against the Gentiles, and any Jews that are with Christ when the last half starts.
But there can be no Gentile saints to be persecuted if it is a pre 7 years resurrection.
You are referring to 2 peter 3: 10-13. Peter is referring to the same thing Jesus speaks about in Matt 24: 29 and Paul speaks about in 2 Thess 1: 7-10. This is apocalyptic language. It is non-literal language. The fire refers to God's judgment and destruction of a people.
Please look at Isaiah 13: 9-10.....Babylon's destruction
Please look at Isaiah 34: 4-5.......Edom's destruction
Please look at Ezekiel 32: 7-9.....Pharoah and Egypt's destruction
Jesus, Paul and Peter in the above examples in the NT are all referring to the same thing. The destruction of Old Covenant Israel. This "de-creation" language is always used non-literally by the prophets. This earth and universe will never be destroyed, burned up or re-made.
Please look at Isaiah 13: 9-10.....Babylon's destruction
Please look at Isaiah 34: 4-5.......Edom's destruction
Please look at Ezekiel 32: 7-9.....Pharoah and Egypt's destruction
Jesus, Paul and Peter in the above examples in the NT are all referring to the same thing. The destruction of Old Covenant Israel. This "de-creation" language is always used non-literally by the prophets. This earth and universe will never be destroyed, burned up or re-made.
Here it is in context (kjv)
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Now,it says they CAME OUT OF The gt.
They did suffer,but the kjv words it like the greek. Contrasting the hungering and thirsting etc in less severity than the wording you use.
Those left behind are saints.
And many folks believe some get saved during the gt.
Under your placement,you have the saints " appointed to wrath"
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Now,it says they CAME OUT OF The gt.
They did suffer,but the kjv words it like the greek. Contrasting the hungering and thirsting etc in less severity than the wording you use.
Those left behind are saints.
And many folks believe some get saved during the gt.
Under your placement,you have the saints " appointed to wrath"
the pre-trib rapture believers are saying that in 1 thessalonians 4:15-17 the coming is not Jesus coming to earth, but coming to heaven atmosphere and we being caught up to Him, not to escort Him down to earth but He will take us to heaven instead.
but where does it say that in the bible? or in thessalonians?
the post-trib rapture believers are saying that the seals are not God's wrath because its not mentioned specifically but if Jesus opens the seals isnt it God's anger? death famine destruction doesnt sound like love to me
but where does it say that in the bible? or in thessalonians?
the post-trib rapture believers are saying that the seals are not God's wrath because its not mentioned specifically but if Jesus opens the seals isnt it God's anger? death famine destruction doesnt sound like love to me
I'm not sure this [the following quote of mine from a different convo/thread] will help, but I'll put it here as PART of my answer (there is more)… so ignore the parts of the following that are a "repeat" of things I've already stated in this current thread, and zero in on the parts I haven't yet mentioned here :
[quoting my post from another thread]
"The phrase "shall come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" pertains to the afore-mentioned "time period" under part #1 (its ARRIVAL under point #1--the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"] involves "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-years (see the following: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" [of many more "birth PANGS [plural]" that will follow on from there], i.e. the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" [the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT"--see also Daniel 7:7 and Genesis 46:2] which is at the START of the 7-year period, involving "the prince THAT SHALL COME" [Dan9:27a(26)--"FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"] i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," aka the rider of the white horse with "a bow" (which often means "DECEPTION") when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" [Rev4-5; Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 (<--which verses seem to parallel precisely 2Th2:7b-8a)] at the time He Himself "STANDS to JUDGE" by opening the "FIRST SEAL" (at the START of the 7-year tribulation period)."
[end quoting]
I believe the "24 elders" sitting on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanos/crowns" are in a "judgment SETTING" (the part where I'd put ^ "when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE' Isa3:13," etc)... and I believe these "24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body" (recall, Paul was told he would be receiving a "stephanos/crown" "IN THAT DAY" ['the Day of Christ,' when 'the Church which is His body' is UP THERE 'with Him'], in 2Tim4:6)… and we are told that "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" in 1Cor6:3[14], which we see occurring at least in Rev12:9...and in the phrase (related to Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [the 'FUTURE' aspects of the Book, 4:1]) a phrase found also in Romans 16:20 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" which I believe refers to the tribulation period (i.e. the 70th Wk/7-yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth). Luke 18:8 [see end of Lk17 also] has this phrase also ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), but here refers to that which will be taking place "on the earth" at that time: "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...
There's more I could say, but this post is long enough for now
:[quoting my post from another thread]
"The phrase "shall come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" pertains to the afore-mentioned "time period" under part #1 (its ARRIVAL under point #1--the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"] involves "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-years (see the following: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" [of many more "birth PANGS [plural]" that will follow on from there], i.e. the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" [the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT"--see also Daniel 7:7 and Genesis 46:2] which is at the START of the 7-year period, involving "the prince THAT SHALL COME" [Dan9:27a(26)--"FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"] i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]," aka the rider of the white horse with "a bow" (which often means "DECEPTION") when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" [Rev4-5; Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 (<--which verses seem to parallel precisely 2Th2:7b-8a)] at the time He Himself "STANDS to JUDGE" by opening the "FIRST SEAL" (at the START of the 7-year tribulation period)."
[end quoting]
I believe the "24 elders" sitting on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanos/crowns" are in a "judgment SETTING" (the part where I'd put ^ "when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE' Isa3:13," etc)... and I believe these "24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body" (recall, Paul was told he would be receiving a "stephanos/crown" "IN THAT DAY" ['the Day of Christ,' when 'the Church which is His body' is UP THERE 'with Him'], in 2Tim4:6)… and we are told that "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" in 1Cor6:3[14], which we see occurring at least in Rev12:9...and in the phrase (related to Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [the 'FUTURE' aspects of the Book, 4:1]) a phrase found also in Romans 16:20 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" which I believe refers to the tribulation period (i.e. the 70th Wk/7-yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth). Luke 18:8 [see end of Lk17 also] has this phrase also ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), but here refers to that which will be taking place "on the earth" at that time: "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...
There's more I could say, but this post is long enough for now
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^ About that second part of your post, I agree with you (that the SEALS He will be opening ARE a part of His "judgment [/wrath]" (note the "bold" sentence in my quoted section, in previous post ^ , above).
I tend to believe that the "Gog-Magog War" is a PART of the "2nd SEAL Wars" taking place EARLY in the trib, and there are "wrath" words used in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (in that context). Here's another portion of a post I'd made in a different convo/thread, on that general topic:
[quoting from that post]
"--Genesis 45:1 - "There STOOD no man with him while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" [see also Ezekiel 39:7 "SO [in this way] SHALL *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of My people Israel..." [also in 38:14 "IN THAT DAY when My people of Israel..."] (I believe this Gog-Magog War is a part of the "SEAL 2 Wars" early in the future trib/70th Wk/7-yrs--)]--see ALSO the "IN THE NIGHT" phrases of Genesis 46:2/Daniel 7:7/1Th5:1-3 ["And God SPAKE UNTO Israel IN the visions OF THE NIGHT"; along with the sequence (again) noted in Matt22:7 [70ad events] then Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to His servants..." [the LATER 95ad--"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [to Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants" [7:3-4 for example] things which must come to pass [4:1 (the future aspects)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" "
[end quoting of that post]
Notice, here, He is again calling them "My people Israel"... And Joseph did this when there were "yet 5 years" remaining [Gen45:6] in his "7 year famine" (so, early on).
I tend to believe that the "Gog-Magog War" is a PART of the "2nd SEAL Wars" taking place EARLY in the trib, and there are "wrath" words used in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (in that context). Here's another portion of a post I'd made in a different convo/thread, on that general topic:
[quoting from that post]
"--Genesis 45:1 - "There STOOD no man with him while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" [see also Ezekiel 39:7 "SO [in this way] SHALL *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of My people Israel..." [also in 38:14 "IN THAT DAY when My people of Israel..."] (I believe this Gog-Magog War is a part of the "SEAL 2 Wars" early in the future trib/70th Wk/7-yrs--)]--see ALSO the "IN THE NIGHT" phrases of Genesis 46:2/Daniel 7:7/1Th5:1-3 ["And God SPAKE UNTO Israel IN the visions OF THE NIGHT"; along with the sequence (again) noted in Matt22:7 [70ad events] then Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to His servants..." [the LATER 95ad--"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [to Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants" [7:3-4 for example] things which must come to pass [4:1 (the future aspects)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" "
[end quoting of that post]
Notice, here, He is again calling them "My people Israel"... And Joseph did this when there were "yet 5 years" remaining [Gen45:6] in his "7 year famine" (so, early on).
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just comparing verses wouldnt this put the exact timing of the rapture and resurrection right at the second coming:
1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:
2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.
this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
who can debunk what i said and what is wrong with this? i didnt read this from a book i just put this together on my own now. what do you friends think?
1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:
2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.
this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
who can debunk what i said and what is wrong with this? i didnt read this from a book i just put this together on my own now. what do you friends think?
Verse 7 literally says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us in the revelation" … the word "when" is not in this text, and the definite article in the phrase "in the revelation" (unlike where elsewhere just "in revelation" [no definite article] speaks of the "in the here and now," in that context) is speaking of that future time of the tribulation period, but it is not making the point of "RECEIVING rest" (or "when" in relation to that), it is just stating the fact that those who are [presently] "troubled, rest with us in the revelation". Am I making sense? lol. "Inflicting vengeance" would seem to be referring to the tribulation period (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" at the START of the 7-yrs), just as the "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" speaks of in Luke 18:8[chpt 17:end] (Rev1:1/4:1/7:3 [unfolding on the earth]; Rom16:20 [with "the Church which is His body" IN HEAVEN with Him]; same time period, distinct LOCATIONS for each of these).
Here's how I see two OTHER distinct things both taking place "on the earth" DURING the trib years:
--Luke 21:36 shows those who will "[that ye may] have strength TO FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of these things that are coming on the earth (throughout the trib years), and its outcome ("stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His Second Coming to the earth designation]); whereas of the others, it says...
--1Th5:2-3 "[and they] shall NOT escape." The "sudden destruction [G3936 - olithros]" is the thing that shall "COME UPON them" (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--and no one gets out of "birth PANGS" once they START, all have to go through it/experience it, but some by "fleeing out of each and every" [as mentioned above] and others by "ruination" [not 'annihilation'] from each and every--see also the distinction of 'ruin' and 'destruction' words in 1Tim6:9)
That's kind of how I see it. Hope that helps somewhat.
Here's how I see two OTHER distinct things both taking place "on the earth" DURING the trib years:
--Luke 21:36 shows those who will "[that ye may] have strength TO FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of these things that are coming on the earth (throughout the trib years), and its outcome ("stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His Second Coming to the earth designation]); whereas of the others, it says...
--1Th5:2-3 "[and they] shall NOT escape." The "sudden destruction [G3936 - olithros]" is the thing that shall "COME UPON them" (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--and no one gets out of "birth PANGS" once they START, all have to go through it/experience it, but some by "fleeing out of each and every" [as mentioned above] and others by "ruination" [not 'annihilation'] from each and every--see also the distinction of 'ruin' and 'destruction' words in 1Tim6:9)
That's kind of how I see it. Hope that helps somewhat.
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Verse 7 literally says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us in the revelation" … the word "when" is not in this text, and the definite article in the phrase "in the revelation" (unlike where elsewhere just "in revelation" [no definite article] speaks of the "in the here and now," in that context) is speaking of that future time of the tribulation period, but it is not making the point of "RECEIVING rest" (or "when" in relation to that), it is just stating the fact that those who are [presently] "troubled, rest with us in the revelation". Am I making sense? lol. "Inflicting vengeance" would seem to be referring to the tribulation period (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" at the START of the 7-yrs), just as the "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" speaks of in Luke 18:8[chpt 17:end] (Rev1:1/4:1/7:3 [unfolding on the earth]; Rom16:20 [with "the Church which is His body" IN HEAVEN with Him]; same time period, distinct LOCATIONS for each of these).
Here's how I see two OTHER distinct things both taking place "on the earth" DURING the trib years:
--Luke 21:36 shows those who will "[that ye may] have strength TO FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of these things that are coming on the earth (throughout the trib years), and its outcome ("stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His Second Coming to the earth designation]; whereas of the others, it says...
--1Th5:2-3 "[and they] shall NOT escape." The "sudden destruction [G3936 - olithros]" is the thing that shall "COME UPON them" (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--and no one gets out of "birth PANGS" once they START, all have to go through it/experience it, but some by "fleeing out of each and every" [as mentioned above] and others by "ruination" [not 'annihilation'] from each and every--see also the distinction of 'ruin' and 'destruction' words in 1Tim6:9)
That's kind of how I see it. Hope that helps somewhat.
Here's how I see two OTHER distinct things both taking place "on the earth" DURING the trib years:
--Luke 21:36 shows those who will "[that ye may] have strength TO FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of these things that are coming on the earth (throughout the trib years), and its outcome ("stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His Second Coming to the earth designation]; whereas of the others, it says...
--1Th5:2-3 "[and they] shall NOT escape." The "sudden destruction [G3936 - olithros]" is the thing that shall "COME UPON them" (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--and no one gets out of "birth PANGS" once they START, all have to go through it/experience it, but some by "fleeing out of each and every" [as mentioned above] and others by "ruination" [not 'annihilation'] from each and every--see also the distinction of 'ruin' and 'destruction' words in 1Tim6:9)
That's kind of how I see it. Hope that helps somewhat.