Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

[TheDivineWatermark]

but it says when? i underlined it. why do you say its not in the text? even without when it still says with us in the revelation. the revelation there being second coming because it mentions angels and eternal destruction on the wicked? or are you saying the rest means rest here on earth during the kingdom?

Allow me to quote William Kelly on 2Th1:7 (though I differ ever so slightly with his take on "the Day of the Lord" where he elsewhere explains it, if I recall rightly... but here I can fairly agree with what he says, with a very slight amount of tweaking, which I will explain below his quote):

[quoting]

"Is this day of grace to go on indefinitely? Not so; that day hastens when His judgment will be revealed. And as glory, honour, and peace will be the portion of every soul that does good, so tribulation and anguish upon every one that doeth evil, to Jew and Gentile, for there is no respect of persons: evil will be treated as nothing but evil, when the Lord arises to judge, and this in the most manifest way before the universe.

"Hence the importance, not only that sovereign grace should take to heaven the saints that are awaiting Him, but that righteous judgment should be displayed at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire. For the day will then have come to render vengeance to His and their enemies, whether they be Gentiles that know not God or they be Jews, who (if not so ignorant as the nations) cannot deny that they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

--William Kelly, on 2Th1:7

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; source: Bible Hub]


[I personally see this ^ as being parallel with what we see in 2Th2:9-12, which is what will be taking place WITHIN the tribulation period, for those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"--i.e. they will "believe the pseudei/the false/the LIE" [the "strong delusion"] INSTEAD, DURING the trib years (in contrast to what some OTHERS in the trib will come to "believe" DURING THAT SAME time period [i.e. "IN THAT DAY"/the "DOTL [time period]"], as shown in 2Th1:10b);... and especially if we view 2Th2:7b-8a ("the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed") to be a kind of correlation to what we see in Lamentation 2:3-4 ("He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" [effectively saying, let 'er rip! i.e. SEAL #1, et al, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5--Rev4-5 being a "judgment scene"])]

 

[Melach]

Allow me to quote William Kelly on 2Th1:7 (though I differ ever so slightly with his take on "the Day of the Lord" where he elsewhere explains it, if I recall rightly... but here I can fairly agree with what he says, with a very slight amount of tweaking, which I will explain below his quote):

[quoting]

"Is this day of grace to go on indefinitely? Not so; that day hastens when His judgment will be revealed. And as glory, honour, and peace will be the portion of every soul that does good, so tribulation and anguish upon every one that doeth evil, to Jew and Gentile, for there is no respect of persons: evil will be treated as nothing but evil, when the Lord arises to judge, and this in the most manifest way before the universe.

"Hence the importance, not only that sovereign grace should take to heaven the saints that are awaiting Him, but that righteous judgment should be displayed at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire. For the day will then have come to render vengeance to His and their enemies, whether they be Gentiles that know not God or they be Jews, who (if not so ignorant as the nations) cannot deny that they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

--William Kelly, on 2Th1:7

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; source: Bible Hub]


[I personally see this ^ as being parallel with what we see in 2Th2:9-12, which is what will be taking place WITHIN the tribulation period, for those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"--i.e. they will "believe the pseudei/the false/the LIE" [the "strong delusion"] INSTEAD, DURING the trib years (in contrast to what some OTHERS in the trib will come to "believe" DURING THAT SAME time period [i.e. "IN THAT DAY"/the "DOTL [time period]"], as shown in 2Th1:10b);... and especially if we view 2Th2:7b-8a ("the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed") to be a kind of correlation to what we see in Lamentation 2:3-4 ("He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" [effectively saying, let 'er rip! i.e. SEAL #1, et al, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5--Rev4-5 being a "judgment scene"])]

is william kelly a dispensationalist or what is he? so the rest means we get to return with the Lord and rest in the millennium? i can accept that interpretation.

and you said that the word "when" is not in the text, what do you mean by that? it says that in all the translations i looked at.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here it is in context (kjv)
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now,it says they CAME OUT OF The gt.
They did suffer,but the kjv words it like the greek. Contrasting the hungering and thirsting etc in less severity than the wording you use.
Those left behind are saints.
And many folks believe some get saved during the gt.

Under your placement,you have the saints " appointed to wrath"

Did you read the information that I put on the previous post about their exposure to the seals, trumpets and bowls? This demonstrates they are affected by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Here it is again. Please understand what I am saying in this post:

=========================================================================

"Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them,

nor any scorching heat."

Never again will they hunger:

This would be indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse, where because of the shortage of food there will be world-wide famine, which will also affect the great tribulation saints. It would also be because the first and third trumpets, where a third of the trees are burned up (which would include fruit trees), as well as the second trumpet where a third of the fish over all the earth are killed, causing great food shortages, which would also affect the great tribulation saints.

Never will they thirst:

This would be indicative of the third trumpet where that star like a giant torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water causing many people to die from drinking it. This would also include the results of the second and third bowl judgments, where all of the oceans and fresh water is turned into literal blood. The GTS will also suffer from the lack of water.

Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat:

The above is referring to the fourth bowl, where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat and searing them. This would also include the GTS simply because they will be on the earth.

=========================================================================

By the way, I never said that "saints are appointed to suffer wrath." They will simply be casualties because they will have not been believers or will have turned back to the world, living according to the sinful nature.

Yes, I agree with you that the GTS will suffer at the hands of the beast. However, as I have pointed out above and as you can see for yourself, the GTS will also be exposed to God's wrath. It will be impossible for them not to be affected by God's wrath, simply because they will be on the earth during that time. This is why Jesus warns believers to be faithful, watching and ready for His appearing to gather us, as described below:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[Melach]

1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

if it can be shown that the wrath to come is not talking about hell, but the coming 70th week of daniel it proves pre-trib to be true. any takers?

 

[oyster67]

We will go up to Him for the marriage and then come down with Him at the Second Coming 7 years later. This is not new teaching, but was once understood by all. Now, in the last days, chaos and convolution has become king. Everyone wants their own hobby-horse verse. What we should be doing is taking them all together. Accept the correct Doctrine as it has been shown to you, and then you will see that it synthesizes and harmonizes beautifully.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another misused verse IMV.....read down two more verses in the Thesslonian text...

BUT YOU BRETHERN are not in DARKNESS THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF......

^ Yes, this is because of: "the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" [context in 1&2Thess: an "eschatological salvation"], per 1Th1:10 (because we, "the Church which is His body," are "not appointed unto wrath," that is, ANY "wrath" during the tribulation period), so this makes us examine "when" any WRATH will take place:

--I already pointed out the similarities of 2Th7b-8a (the START of the trib yrs) with Lam2:3-4 ["His fury" in v.4; see v.6c also)]

--I mentioned, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4)

--I've pointed out how there are "wrath" words in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (Gog-Magog War, and PART of why I believe this occurs fairly EARLY in the trib years)

--Satan will be "having great wrath" at the mid-trib point, when he and his angels will be "cast down unto the earth" [and thereafter limited to that sphere] at the time of the "FIRST WOE [unto the earth]"/5th Trumpet time slot

--the 7 Vials (toward the last quarter of the trib, IMV), it is said of them, "for IN THEM is the wrath of God COMPLETED" (note: not when the wrath of God was STARTED)

--[continuing on 1Th5...] "9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen] or [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!] , we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'/'IDENTIFICATION' with] Him." (Notice also: the Greek word translated [in kjv] as "others" which is "G3062 loipos" which is defined as "Definition: the rest, the remaining; Usage: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others."; from "G3007 leipó," which is defined as "Definition: to leave, leave behind")

--on this last point ^ , notice how verse 3 had said, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN destruction COMETH UPON them, as travail [singular; the same word Jesus used in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 in the PLURAL] and they shall not escape"... so this is telling about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from there, just as birth pangs in real life DO--this is not at the END of the trib, but at its ARRIVAL, its INITIAL moment, and this INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is what we see in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (aka the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib [2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a(26)]; not its MIDDLE, nor its ENDING). At this INITIAL ARRIVAL, not EVERYONE [EVERY unbeliever] is suddenly "destroyed" (as in the later Lk17:27,29), rather "sudden destruction [different "destroy" word]" will "COME UPON" those saying "Peace and safety," but [other] people will still have opportunity to come to faith within the trib and to "[actively] FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of those things coming on the earth (over the course of those 7-yrs), IF they will but heed His Word ("watch and pray always in order that ye may have strength TO FLEE OUT OF [each and every...]" Lk21:36[27])

--Rev10:7 (at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial" time frame, when all 7 Vials are yet to unfold and transpire over quite SOME SPANS OF TIME), the phrase in verse 6 means "no more delay," not that "no time remains" as the 7 Vials which bring God's wrath to "COMPLETION" take a good measure of TIME to unfold. This also is not the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3, as I see it, and there hasn't been a whole lot of "peace and safety" in evidence since at least the 2nd SEAL, wouldn't you say? (there it says, "to take peace from the earth" i.e. the Second SEAL Wars)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and you said that the word "when" is not in the text, what do you mean by that? it says that in all the translations i looked at.

I just mean like this shows:

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-7.htm

 

[Melach]

We will go up to Him for the marriage and then come down with Him at the Second Coming 7 years later. This is not new teaching, but was once understood by all. Now, in the last days, chaos and convolution has become king. Everyone wants their own hobby-horse verse. What we should be doing is taking them all together. Accept the correct Doctrine as it has been shown to you, and then you will see that it synthesizes and harmonizes beautifully.

actually its quite the opposite, pre-trib rapture has only been popular recently.

irenaeus and other ante-nicene church fathers were post-trib believers:


Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

Irenaeus:

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1]

Justin Martyr:

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110]

clearly, post-trib was the position of the early church. thats why its called "historical premillennialism" because it was the first belief to be around.

does this mean post-trib is right? it doesnt prove a thing, church fathers arent bible or apostles but i was just making a point in reply to you friend.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

if it can be shown that the wrath to come is not talking about hell, but the coming 70th week of daniel it proves pre-trib to be true. any takers?

That is how I see it.

The "salvation" spoken of in the Thessalonians epistles is an "eschatological salvation," per context.

 

[Melach]

That is how I see it.

The "salvation" spoken of in the Thessalonians epistles is an "eschatological salvation," per context.

can you demonstrate it? if you can. i will become a card-carrying member of your group. lolz

 

[Woodsyliving]

Matthew 11:19-29 the woes assigned in Mathew 11:21-23 same as the ones in Revelation same as the ones in the Old Testament which Christ came to fulfill and complete and did.
Hebrews 12:23-29
Hebrews 12:28 is the waxing away of the old and the establishment of the new and one not built by man at all.
Hebrews 12:23-29
We cannot change the Words or the past and we cannot change what is God's neither by transferring it unto another time or day not even unto another way.
Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
That which was is never going to be again unless we think we can move the kingdom which cannot be moved.
He said plainly his kingdom was not of this world. John 18:36
It is:
Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
All of that is not to come it is already done.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All of that is not to come it is already done.

In what way would you say that Luke 22:30 [Matt19:28 (comp. Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING)] "[re: the twelve] shall sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" took place/was fulfilled/happened, in your view?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

can you demonstrate it? if you can. i will become a card-carrying member of your group. lolz

LOL, that is like asking me to jump high into the air flapping my arms or doing a vanishing act (I think it will be like the latter of these ), haha... and that is because, most people do not fully "become a card-carrying member [of any group]" until they themselves dig out the Truths found therein.

However, I will give you a little clue (so you can go do so ) and that is, our Rapture is referred to by Paul something like ten times in these two epistles to the Thessalonians. Here's just a few (you'll have to search out the rest of them):

--"[we] shall be caught up [G726 - harpagēsometha ("From a derivative of [G138] haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)")] together with them [with the dead in christ who shall rise first]" (AS ONE, the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]")

--"the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" (the wrath coming on the earth, at a specific time frame [eschatological])

--"[and for an helmet] the hope of salvation" (this refers to our "understanding" [helmet of] the Rapture truths)

--__________

--__________

[etc… you do the rest! ]

 

[Melach]

LOL, that is like asking me to jump high into the air flapping my arms or doing a vanishing act (I think it will be like the latter of these ), haha... and that is because, most people do not fully "become a card-carrying member [of any group]" until they themselves dig out the Truths found therein.

However, I will give you a little clue (so you can go do so ) and that is, our Rapture is referred to by Paul something like ten times in these two epistles to the Thessalonians. Here's just a few (you'll have to search out the rest of them):

--"[we] shall be caught up [G726 - harpagēsometha ] together with them [with the dead in christ who shall rise first]" (AS ONE, the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]")

--"the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" (the wrath coming on the earth, at a specific time frame [eschatological])

--"[and for an helmet] the hope of salvation" (this refers to our "understanding" [helmet of] the Rapture truths)

--__________

--__________

[etc… you do the rest! ]

i will forgive you this time for making me do my own research.

i have also found this topic a lot in thessalonians. here is my situation:

1 thessalonians 4:15-17 says coming of the Lord. what evidence do ew have that there is more than one coming of the Lord? one for His church one with the church?

i believe john 14:1-3 could be the key, i dont see this ever being fulfilled in the post-trib system. but then again who is the antichrist persecuting if there are no christians left on the earth?

 

[dcontroversal]

^ Yes, this is because of: "the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" [context in 1&2Thess: an "eschatological salvation"], per 1Th1:10 (because we, "the Church which is His body," are "not appointed unto wrath," that is, ANY "wrath" during the tribulation period), so this makes us examine "when" any WRATH will take place:

--I already pointed out the similarities of 2Th7b-8a (the START of the trib yrs) with Lam2:3-4 ["His fury" in v.4; see v.6c also)]

--I mentioned, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4)

--I've pointed out how there are "wrath" words in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (Gog-Magog War, and PART of why I believe this occurs fairly EARLY in the trib years)

--Satan will be "having great wrath" at the mid-trib point, when he and his angels will be "cast down unto the earth" [and thereafter limited to that sphere] at the time of the "FIRST WOE [unto the earth]"/5th Trumpet time slot

--the 7 Vials (toward the last quarter of the trib, IMV), it is said of them, "for IN THEM is the wrath of God COMPLETED" (note: not when the wrath of God was STARTED)

--[continuing on 1Th5...] "9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen] or [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!] , we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'/'IDENTIFICATION' with] Him." (Notice also: the Greek word translated [in kjv] as "others" which is "G3062 loipos" which is defined as "Definition: the rest, the remaining; Usage: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others."; from "G3007 leipó," which is defined as "Definition: to leave, leave behind")

--on this last point ^ , notice how verse 3 had said, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN destruction COMETH UPON them, as travail [singular; the same word Jesus used in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 in the PLURAL] and they shall not escape"... so this is telling about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from there, just as birth pangs in real life DO--this is not at the END of the trib, but at its ARRIVAL, its INITIAL moment, and this INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is what we see in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (aka the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib [2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a(26)]; not its MIDDLE, nor its ENDING). At this INITIAL ARRIVAL, not EVERYONE [EVERY unbeliever] is suddenly "destroyed" (as in the later Lk17:27,29), rather "sudden destruction [different "destroy" word]" will "COME UPON" those saying "Peace and safety," but [other] people will still have opportunity to come to faith within the trib and to "[actively] FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of those things coming on the earth (over the course of those 7-yrs), IF they will but heed His Word ("watch and pray always in order that ye may have strength TO FLEE OUT OF [each and every...]" Lk21:36[27])

--Rev10:7 (at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial" time frame, when all 7 Vials are yet to unfold and transpire over quite SOME SPANS OF TIME), the phrase in verse 6 means "no more delay," not that "no time remains" as the 7 Vials which bring God's wrath to "COMPLETION" take a good measure of TIME to unfold. This also is not the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3, as I see it, and there hasn't been a whole lot of "peace and safety" in evidence since at least the 2nd SEAL, wouldn't you say? (there it says, "to take peace from the earth" i.e. the Second SEAL Wars)

The Beast makes war against, overcomes and prevails against the saints.....Go read the opening salvos to the churches in the church letters.......ONE REASON Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters is because some fool taught them they had missed the reaurrection because they were suffering tribulation...Paul told them this is PROOF YOU HAVE NOT MISSED IT....WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION bit have been SAVED FROM WRATH<---GOD'S WRATH that is!!

 

[Melach]

The Beast makes war against, overcomes and prevails against the saints.....Go read the opening salvos to the churches in the church letters.......ONE REASON Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters is because some fool taught them they had missed the reaurrection because they were suffering tribulation...Paul told them this is PROOF YOU HAVE NOT MISSED IT....WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION bit have been SAVED FROM WRATH<---GOD'S WRATH that is!!

can you comment on what i wrote in post #58 of this topic ? what do you think friend

 

[dcontroversal]

Nope.
The wheat and tares are harvested together. THEN separated,THEN tares are burned.
NEITHER IS cut/Harvested last.
NEITHER is cut/Harvested first.

The laborers are TOLD TO HARVEST them together.
There is no reason to believe anything else.

False.......Jesus was clear......God begins to deal with the tares first.......and even explains this in the parable of the wheat and tares....amd before you pull the PARABLE CARD....JESUS gives MEANING and fully explains it to his disciples in the very next chapter......You guys will NEVER GRASP THE TRUTH WHEN YOU WILLINGLY REJECT IT....

30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Beast makes war against, overcomes and prevails against the saints.....Go read the opening salvos to the churches in the church letters.......ONE REASON Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters is because some fool taught them they had missed the reaurrection because they were suffering tribulation...Paul told them this is PROOF YOU HAVE NOT MISSED IT....WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION bit have been SAVED FROM WRATH<---GOD'S WRATH that is!!

I've already addressed this (in some thread, I try to find it), but no, the bold ^ is not what was going on. What was going on (in their distraught minds) was [someone trying to convince them] "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [v.2] (NOT that they MISSED something, THAT was NOT what was on their distraught minds, but that "the DOTL [a time period, involving "judgments" and other very negative things] IS PRESENT" and Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO [and concludes on the other end with v.15 "believe US inSTEAD!"])

 

[dcontroversal]

just comparing verses wouldnt this put the exact timing of the rapture and resurrection right at the second coming:

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:

2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.

this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

who can debunk what i said and what is wrong with this? i didnt read this from a book i just put this together on my own now. what do you friends think?

Amen......note....Jesus comes to judge the lost with fire....and gather those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN....if he did nOt come when he did...NO FLESH WOULD BE LEFT ALIVE.....THIS does not indicate a world of peace, but rather a world on the edge of extinction....and for the sake of the ELECT AND THERE BEING SOME THAT REMAIN he will step in when he does......POST TRIBULATION/PRE-WRATH

 

[dcontroversal]

I've already addressed this (in some thread, I try to find it), but no, the bold ^ is not what was going on. What was going on (in their distraught minds) was [someone trying to convince them] "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (NOT that they MISSED something, THAT was NOT what was on their distraught minds, but that "the DOTL [a time period, involving "judgments" and other very negative things] IS PRESENT" and Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO)

Sure it was......and too be honest...I could care less if you reject it mate.......I used to believe and peddle the imminent return.....it is false.....post trib pre wrath is what the bible teaches...

Through MUCH TRIBULATION we must enter the Kingdom, but we are NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH.....