Concerning the gift of tongues

[Taylorj2]

Was Paul exaggerating to make a point?

For example, when he spoke about though he speak in tongues of angels.
It was exaggerating to make a point. That is because he also spoke about having faith to move a mountain. Which is obviously figurative.

That's figurative to say that the tongues of Angels isn't really what he was speaking about and that it was an exaggeration. I do not believe that Paul was exaggerating, because he was approaching the gift with honor instead of trashing it. He spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church - I think we have to approach scripture without bias or what we were taught. If you put a new believer in a room for his first six months and he read the Gospels and Acts, what would he come out believing?

 

[Taylorj2]

True, but would they know where to look? I mean if they refuse what the Bible says in very easy to understand language, I'm thinking the understanding must be darkened

No, unfortunately, the way we often approach scripture is through the lens of someone else and what others have taught us. For instance, I disagree with John MacArthur on the gifts of the Spirit, Calvinism etc. But I still listen to many of his messages and I love him like a brother, even though we do not agree on some of our doctrine. I can learn from him. I find that with several theologians that are cessationist, but I always encourage study and seeing both sides of the fence without a predetermined idea and seeing what God shows you.

 

[Taylorj2]

Those are the problematic historical passages that need interpreting in light of clear doctrinal passages to head off wrong speculation.

So, what is the head off then? Again, there are other places where people speak in tongues and nobody is present to interpret nor does anyone understand It in their own language. Here's another question to follow: If they spoke in tongues and there was no interpretation, how does the person around them who witnessed the tongue know what they were saying? Just curious.

 

[Taylorj2]

Great question.

If it walks like a duck.

Modern day claims of supernatural language (tongues) is babble not language.

Now that I answered your question.

Why should anyone accept otherwise?

Very simple, the person speaking in tongues obviously believers that is from scripture.

Claims Must Be Substantiated.

" Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Are the miracles, wonders and signs of the Pentecostal movement been substantiated?

Be honest.

Yes. They have been substantiated.

 

[Lamar]

Very simple, the person speaking in tongues obviously believers that is from scripture.

Believing that something is from scripture does not validate the event.
i.e. the beliefs of cults.

 

[Lamar]

Yes. They have been substantiated.

Are you serious, please tell me you are not serious.

You believe the claims of the Pentecostal movement have been substantiated?

When do you think this happened?

Are the roofs of the Pentecostal churches being pulled off?

Do you go to the Pentecostal church for healing or your non-Pentecostal doctor?

 

[Lamar]

Well it's very common for a continuationist to say something like 'we have knowledge now, so it can't have ceased'

This is thinking about general knowledge rather than the gift of knowledge, which was quite different. It mischaracterises what cessationists teach.

He knows it's a mischaracterization.

He does not care.

 

[Taylorj2]

Are you serious, please tell me you are not serious.

You believe the claims of the Pentecostal movement have been substantiated?

When do you think this happened?

Are the roofs of the Pentecostal churches being pulled off?

Do you go to the Pentecostal church for healing or your non-Pentecostal doctor?

Absolutely, there are legitimate organizations that provide proof of validated miracles of God. However, I would propose that we look to scripture only when forming a belief, the scriptures say that signs, wonders, and miracles follow a believer - therefore, we should expect them. Thirdly, I can give you personal experience of people I've seen healed after praying (but that is the weakest of what is suggested out of the three.)

By the way, I'm interdenominational/Charismatic, not pentecostal.

 

[Taylorj2]

Believing that something is from scripture does not validate the event.
i.e. the beliefs of cults.

Every belief we have and anything we practice should be rooted by the scriptures. Even if you are against the gifts of the Spirit, tongues etc. then you should have a belief based on what scripture says, not your own personal bias.

 

[ocean]

Well it's very common for a continuationist to say something like 'we have knowledge now, so it can't have ceased'

This is thinking about general knowledge rather than the gift of knowledge, which was quite different. It mischaracterises what cessationists teach.

It's very common for cessationists to say the Bible is that which is perfect even though scripture states we only know IN PART (see I Cor 13 for the entire rendition of what is known only in part) So I have yet to hear or read any explanation that deals with the fact the Bible itself (of course it was not the Bible when written) says we only know in part.

The glorification of believers is the most logical and reasonable explanation for the perfect. Paul state that we see through a glass that is dark so we do not know or understand it all but one day we will.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known.
I Cor. 13:12

The only way a person can reach the conclusion that we have the perfect now, is if they cannot put 2 + 2 together, that is they are really not that well versed in scripture or do not realize that scripture does not contradict itself (same thing maybe) or prefer not to make what they consider a fool of themself and speak in a language they consider babble. I have heard more than one grown man say 'I will never speak in tongues even if it's true because I am not going to sound stupid'

Cessationists should not be teaching anything since much of scripture seems to be foreign to their understanding.

 

[ocean]

No, unfortunately, the way we often approach scripture is through the lens of someone else and what others have taught us. For instance, I disagree with John MacArthur on the gifts of the Spirit, Calvinism etc. But I still listen to many of his messages and I love him like a brother, even though we do not agree on some of our doctrine. I can learn from him. I find that with several theologians that are cessationist, but I always encourage study and seeing both sides of the fence without a predetermined idea and seeing what God shows you.

That was my point said in a bit of a humorous way.

John MacArthur is in big amounts of trouble. He has gone so far as to say those who speak in tongues do so by demonic power. Personally, I would not listen to another thing he says. I do not consider him a brother; his spirit is foreign. Many say they are Bible teachers but Jesus would say 'woe to one who causes others to stumble' as does MacArthur. I will never pretend anything about such a person when the words they speak sound more like the devil himself.

There are no 2 sides of the fence. There is truth and the other side may have some truth but always mixed in with lies.

I know this is a stand not everyone would be willing to take but I have seen too much in my life to make any other statement. I am not going to debate the point either so go ahead and view it as you will as long as your heart is honest in your opinion no problem but my heart would not be honest to see it the way yours does.

 

[Taylorj2]

That was my point said in a bit of a humorous way.

John MacArthur is in big amounts of trouble. He has gone so far as to say those who speak in tongues do so by demonic power. Personally, I would not listen to another thing he says. I do not consider him a brother; his spirit is foreign. Many say they are Bible teachers but Jesus would say 'woe to one who causes others to stumble' as does MacArthur. I will never pretend anything about such a person when the words they speak sound more like the devil himself.

There are no 2 sides of the fence. There is truth and the other side may have some truth but always mixed in with lies.

I know this is a stand not everyone would be willing to take but I have seen too much in my life to make any other statement. I am not going to debate the point either so go ahead and view it as you will as long as your heart is honest in your opinion no problem but my heart would not be honest to see it the way yours does.

I understand your approach. It is commendable. I have to know the two sides of the fence because of the profession in life I chose, and I have to interact with the opposite view quite often. I find that there are good points made from people who don't completely see my way. Where I draw the line is on the core elements of faith.

 

[ocean]

Believing that something is from scripture does not validate the event.
i.e. the beliefs of cults.

When scripture is quoted, word for word in any translation, and they all the same thing regarding spiritual gifts, then how does a person turn away other than in lacking faith? God is invisible. He is Spirit. Jesus died and rose again. Have you ever touched either? Yet you say you believe? By faith? All of it is by faith.

 

[ocean]

I understand your approach. It is commendable. I have to know the two sides of the fence because of the profession in life I chose, and I have to interact with the opposite view quite often. I find that there are good points made from people who don't completely see my way. Where I draw the line is on the core elements of faith.

I do know the 2 sides. Very well because I was brought up in Macs little world and sought God and He brought me over to His side.
I don't care about 'points' at all nor my 'way'. My way is sinful and lacks understanding and I am self destructive. God's way is the Way, the Truth and the Life and I am dead if I do not follow that. Literally dead.

Thanks

 

[shittim]

No, unfortunately, the way we often approach scripture is through the lens of someone else and what others have taught us. For instance, I disagree with John MacArthur on the gifts of the Spirit, Calvinism etc. But I still listen to many of his messages and I love him like a brother, even though we do not agree on some of our doctrine. I can learn from him. I find that with several theologians that are cessationist, but I always encourage study and seeing both sides of the fence without a predetermined idea and seeing what God shows you.

you do better than I, thank you for the inspiration.

 

[ocean]

MacArthur is hurting people left, right and center. Here is an article (Baptist, but I am not Baptist) so it's not like I try to find bad news on him or anyone, but again, this individual speaks another language not found in the Bible

“To list the many things MacArthur has been wrong about would take thousands of words — perhaps an entire book.”

Excerpt:

John MacArthur has been a danger to the gospel of Jesus Christ for years, but he has sold so many books and generated such a fan club that few people were willing to point this out. What we’re seeing and hearing of MacArthur today is nothing new. He has not suddenly changed; he always has been this way.


The difference now is finally more people are willing to declare the emperor has no clothes.


This matters hugely because there is no single pastor who has been more influential on young theological conservatives in the last 50 years than MacArthur. Not Billy Graham. Not Adrian Rogers. Not Charles Stanley. Not John Piper.


MacArthur has been the gold standard for conservative and Reformed theology not only through his preaching but through his books, his commentaries, his study Bible, his podcasts, his videos, his conferences, his public appearances.

Yet people listen to his sermons, buy his books, cherish his counsel as though every word that proceeds from his mouth has divine sanction. His influence far outweighs his rightness. He has infected several generations of young pastors.

My words: He has spiritual influence that does not come from the Holy Spirit. I don't know when or where he flipped from being led by the Holy Spirit to listening to 'another voice' but that sometimes happens when a person starts to think they are somehow 'special' to God. I have seen this happen up close and it is not a pretty sight. (shrugs) I guess we'll se, eh?)

We are living in very serious times.

 

[CS1]

Claims Must Be Substantiated.

" Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Are the miracles, wonders and signs of the Pentecostal movement been substantiated?

Be honest.

1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 , Acts chapter 2, Mark 16 .

 

[CS1]

Claims Must Be Substantiated.

" Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Are the miracles, wonders and signs of the Pentecostal movement been substantiated?

Be honest.

First, miracles, wonders, and signs do not happen only in Pentecostal denominations. Yes, there are many of them. But that doesn't matter as Jesus himself had all of his witnesses. Still, those who hated him lied about them and even said he did it by the devil's power. Very familiar with what is done today. Those who had the proof provided just dismissed it. I am not trying to prove that what the Bible says is valid to sway one to agree, nope. That's not what I have been called to do.


My testimony and my experience no one can challenge. Yet you accept it or not.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well the Pentecostal and charismatics are almost unit in the question of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the sign of speaking in tongues. But it the theology you can find all denominations and directions. F.e You can find calvinism teaching and menonite teaching, which is contrary to each other.
The Pentecostals and charismatics often dont agree with each other teachings.
You can find those with a serious, biblical teaching and those with unserious and non biblical teachings. From far right to far left.

You will also find people that believe the scripture, i.e., Sola Scripture!

Not theology or the diabolical history of the church.

Here are three gifts of the Holy Spirit; wisdom, knowledge, and faith.

People are claiming that the gifts of the Holy Spirit no longer apply?

Wisdom, knowledge, and faith, no longer apply?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

First, miracles, wonders, and signs do not happen only in Pentecostal denominations. Yes, there are many of them. But that doesn't matter as Jesus himself had all of his witnesses. Still, those who hated him lied about them and even said he did it by the devil's power. Very familiar with what is done today. Those who had the proof provided just dismissed it. I am not trying to prove that what the Bible says is valid to sway one to agree, nope. That's not what I have been called to do.


My testimony and my experience no one can challenge. Yet you accept it or not.

I agree. It is enough that Bible is clear that these gifts that cessationists are so afraid of are still here until Jesus returns.

If they want to ignore them... oh well - they shortchange themselves and miss out on those blessings while you get to enjoy them and be blessed by them!


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