Concerning the gift of tongues

[ocean]

"wattie, post: 5480260, member: 10554"]Key points... The tongues are identified to be practiced in a New Testament church setting.

It's meant for the local NT assembly of believers

Scripture indicates it is also for personal use. Why did Paul say he spoke in tongues more that all of them? Surely not in church, right? since he also said he would rather speak 5 words in the language understood by those he addressed

They are inferior to prophecy

No. If they are interpreted they are equal to prophecy. If you are going to bother to make a list like this, then keep it honest

They should be interpreted for the edification of others in the church.

Two or three should speak and then the interpretation or keep silent is what Paul writes.

They should be understandable to the listeners...in their language.

You are taking liberty with the word again. This one is actually funny. Why would tongues need to be interpreted if spoken in the language of those present?

They should be used by one or two..at the most three...and have an interpreter present.

Right.

The church at Corinth was in a port city.. affected by many different peoples who had a lot of paganism with worship of many gods.

That has been addressed . Paul did not address it so ? FYI, the world now is full of paganistic worship and beliefs. Shall we close churches just in case?

They also practiced paganism tongues most likely.

Is this the way you normally understand scripture? You add to it and draw your own conclusions?

They were competing with each other on the gifts .. trying to be superior to each other.

As previously stated more than once, the Corinthian church received correction from Paul. He corrected them

Whether speaking mysteries is condoned or not... the best way was to interpret the tongues for the edification of the church.

Where does Paul state anywhere what you say above? Seems like you do take quite a bit of liberty with scripture in order to feel comfortable in yourself when you come across something that makes you stop and ask questions.

 

[Kroogz]

Follow-up: If it is for edification, whose to say that one cannot have a personal prayer language?

We pray to God the Father. Why would He gift us with a "personal prayer language?" He is not confused with our known language.

 

[Lamar]

Since you state that no one knows what NT tongues sounded like, how then can you make the claim that tongues today are only gibberish? You sure do seem to be double minded depending on what point you want to make and to whom you want to make it.

I will reply in the manner that most of your responses are akin to.

I never stated that I or anyone else knew what tongues in the New Testament sounded like.

 

[ocean]

Do any of you cessationists have anything new to offer regarding tongues or any other spiritual gift? Your objections do not offer scripture (other than the belief that wisdom has also ceased and I am positive it actually may have in some cases) but just the same ole rinse and repeat you think this or that or scripture that has been taken out of context and massaged to try and make it say what it does not say.

You are simply cessationists and that is fine if that is how you wish to proceed but at least offer something new or something from scripture that indicates you have the correct view on things.

 

[ocean]

I will reply in the manner that most of your responses are akin to.

I never stated that I or anyone else knew what tongues in the New Testament sounded like.

Well you have. You call it babble. The following was addressed to myself:

Those who are mocking God are those who cannot explain the obvious lack of evidence for their claims of past manifestations.

Trust and Obey is not the one mocking God, it is the masses that babble and present false readings as if it was coming from God.

And this is you.

You babble and then ask for a reading from God.

This is a misuse of what is sacred. In other words, blasphemy.

Nothing that you are doing is real, if it was there would be no need for anyone to defend it.

Attempting to defend the occurrence of a ongoing event with scripture is absurd!

If it was happening we would know.

Also, you called out the spelling of Trust and Obey while misspelling yourself.... "bode will for you"

 

[Brasspen]

One time I was having a nightmare, and I started speaking in tongues. Then, the nightmare turned into something better for me. I then woke up.

 

[CS1]

The rejection of the Pentecostal movement is not a doctrine but an observation.

Just as we reject the claims of Bigfoot-like people roaming the woods, so do we also reject the claims of Pentecostals.

I do not believe in Bigfoot not because of a systemic search of every inch of forest or every claim of a sighting. But the obvious lack of evidence that should be clearly evident is proof enough.

CS1, do you believe in Bigfoot? If not, why not?

I am not swallowing a camel because there is no Pentecostal camel to swallow.

Just claims of a camel.

If the claims of Pentecostalism were true we would all be Pentecostals.

FYI, Bigfoot is not mentioned in Acts 1:8 or in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14

 

[wattie]

Do any of you cessationists have anything new to offer regarding tongues or any other spiritual gift? Your objections do not offer scripture (other than the belief that wisdom has also ceased and I am positive it actually may have in some cases) but just the same ole rinse and repeat you think this or that or scripture that has been taken out of context and massaged to try and make it say what it does not say.

You are simply cessationists and that is fine if that is how you wish to proceed but at least offer something new or something from scripture that indicates you have the correct view on things.

When a cessationist says knowledge has ceased.. it's the gift of knowledge.. not general knowledge. The supernaturally empowered gift given.. not knowledge in general.

Just like the gift of tongues..wasn't just people speaking another language..but the super naturally empowered gift given.

The other thing is most cessationists say it just prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts that ceased..just those 3...there are a number of others in the bible that continue. Faith hope and love being the 3 primary ones with others that were in the OT that continue.

 

[CS1]

Maby then they change their teaching, because the teaching is false.
Which started with Azusa Street and Agnes Ozman. The beginning of the Pentecostal movement. All pentecostal churches have their beginning there.
Btw later then the charismatic movement startet. So only pentecostals ore charismatics teach and practice this.
Today you find this teaching in almost all denominations, because this charismatic teaching attracts many believers who searching wonders and special feelings in their life. In my church this is taught in secret. Not on the pulpit. They do not practice it, but they have many contacts to pentecostal and charismatic churches where it is practised. Its strange, they defend this teaching, but not practice it.

again you are unbiblical with this topic. and say the same ridiculous things over and over again.


You can't show one verse in the bible stating that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. To call something false and be ignorant of the teaching is very amusing. The experience at Azusa was not the first. The Book of Acts chapter 2 was. The second was not even at Azusa. The experience of utterances was noted and documented from the church fathers, such as

Tongues In The Second, And Third
And Fourth Centuries

Among the Church fathers that lived following the death of John the Revelator in 98 A.D., Montanus of Phrygia stands as a leader in the support of tongues. Eusebius, a fourth century Church historian writes that the followers of Montanus would be “carried away in spirit, and wrought up into a certain kind of frenzy and irregular ecstasy, raving, and speaking, and uttering strange things.”(2)


Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp who was in turn a pupil of the Apostle John, wrote in his book “Against Heresies”
“In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of language and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostles term spiritual “

You were provided this information many, many times. You spew ignorance with your unbiblical comments. Why do you continue to display immaturity? After being shown again and again how wrong and unbiblical you are? What a hateful person. In your very post here, you have no biblical text to refute what you even say, which started at Azusa.

The Gifts of the Holy are for today and have not stopped. You have no Biblical text to say otherwise.

 

[CS1]

The problem is that the Bible is unclear regarding the problematic aspects of pentecostalism.
IOW, the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today
• The gift of tongues did not stop by the time the bible was completed

Instead, we have Jesus never mentioning tongues and Paul in 1Cor.14:14-15 commending them in one sentence then
condemning them in the next and then in the rest of the chapter condoning them if interpreted. Hence the confusion,
but at least it is clear that tongues are NOT required for salvation NOR the sign of being filled with the Spirit, which is love.

(I note that Inquisitor seems to agree with this view :^)

That is because you only looked at a few verses in chapter 14, and out of context. chapter 12 though 14 speak of that I know you most likely hold that Mark 16 was added and not a Bblival text because if you didi not Then you would not have posted this.


the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today

FYI Mark 16:16-18 as:


16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”



1cor chapter 14 what you left out :


14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?

8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?

9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.

11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

The context is if you speak, have an interpretation which is the same as or equal to Prophesying.

Nothing states in any chapter that this gift is not for today. That was established in Chapter 12, which paul said:



12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[Kroogz]

Do any of you cessationists have anything new to offer regarding tongues or any other spiritual gift? Your objections do not offer scripture (other than the belief that wisdom has also ceased and I am positive it actually may have in some cases) but just the same ole rinse and repeat you think this or that or scripture that has been taken out of context and massaged to try and make it say what it does not say.

You are simply cessationists and that is fine if that is how you wish to proceed but at least offer something new or something from scripture that indicates you have the correct view on things.

Google translate or app translate. Anybody can look up a foreign language today and have it translated.

 

[CS1]

What's the difference between the tongues at pentecost and the gift of tongues?

The answer is straightforward

Acts chapter 2 was the birth of the Church with the Power of the Holy Spirit to be a witness of the resurrected Lord.

As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the active Church to build up and edify in the church setting.

 

[Taylorj2]

We pray to God the Father. Why would He gift us with a "personal prayer language?" He is not confused with our known language.

To edify ourselves, but my question would be why did Paul pray in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church?

 

[CS1]

Google translate or app translate. Anybody can look up a foreign language today and have it translated.

FYI, the interpretation of Tongues is not a translation. That is the mistake of those who use secular means to understand Biblical truths. Some are using a linguist to try to discredit the word of God or make up terms like Modern Tongues.

Those Google actions are not Biblical or authoritative.

 

[Taylorj2]

The answer is straightforward

Acts chapter 2 was the birth of the Church with the Power of the Holy Spirit to be a witness of the resurrected Lord.

As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the active Church to build up and edify in the church setting.

I agree.

 

[CS1]

To edify ourselves, but my question would be why did Paul pray in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church?

Great qestion why do you think he said that? And why would a prayer language as some callit be vauble to Paul?

Paul received teaching from the Lord Himself, and the more significant revelation in such a way that A messenger from Satan was sent to keep him humble. IF Paul was prayering in tongues a like He was speaking to GOD mysteries.

 

[GWH]

That is because you only looked at a few verses in chapter 14, and out of context. chapter 12 though 14 speak of that I know you most likely hold that Mark 16 was added and not a Bblival text because if you didi not Then you would not have posted this.


the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today

FYI Mark 16:16-18 as:


16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”



1cor chapter 14 what you left out :


14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?

8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?

9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.

11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

The context is if you speak, have an interpretation which is the same as or equal to Prophesying.

Nothing states in any chapter that this gift is not for today. That was established in Chapter 12, which paul said:



12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Apparently you didn’t read my last paragraph beginning with “the rest of the chapter condoning them if interpreted” and didn’t understand what “condoning” means.

 

[Kroogz]

FYI, the interpretation of Tongues is not a translation.

Really? Then what is it?

An interpreter is SUPPOSE to translate what is said.


We have Google today.

If we hear ," belgtou wtert qierw tm whae fas wedaq." We can punch it in to Google and the translation is, " Biblical tongues have ceased for today."

 

[Taylorj2]

Really? Then what is it?

An interpreter is SUPPOSE to translate what is said.


We have Google today.

If we hear ," belgtou wtert qierw tm whae fas wedaq." We can punch it in to Google and the translation is, " Biblical tongues have ceased for today."

Give me an example beyond Acts 2 where tongues is interpreted when it occurs?

 

[Taylorj2]

Great qestion why do you think he said that? And why would a prayer language as some callit be vauble to Paul?

Paul received teaching from the Lord Himself, and the more significant revelation in such a way that A messenger from Satan was sent to keep him humble. IF Paul was prayering in tongues a like He was speaking to GOD mysteries.

Not only that, but Paul was also studied. Most people really do not realize what level he was in Israel - basically it would be like Trump resigning from office and going into the church in less than a day. He knew the implications of why he did it as well. However, my questions are simply to spark thought from people who do not believe in tongues.