Continuation and Cessation

[Crossfire]

Feedm3,

By no means do I intend any disrespect by saying this, but why don't you tell them the real reason why you believe the gifts of the Spirit are no longer relevant for today? While I do realize this thread is not about eschotology, I think these people deserve to know the root cause as to how cessationism got started in the first place.

 

[feedm3]

Feedm3,

By no means do I intend any disrespect by saying this, but why don't you tell them the real reason why you believe the gifts of the Spirit are no longer relevant for today? While I do realize this thread is not about eschotology, I think these people deserve to know the root cause as to how cessationism got started in the first place.

Crossfire, seriously, I have no idea what your talking about. It surprised me you wrote this, I didn't see this in your character. First off, it did not get started, it is what the Bible teaches, I have shown you scriptural evidence, you have not dealt with at all. Instead you assume I believe maybe something you have heard, or maybe something I said in another post about end times? The real reason is what? If you think people deserve to know, why don't you tell them, including me, what you think? I cant read your mind, nor is there anything I believe about end times that would force the ceasing of miracles. The Text tells me this.
In fact they are two totally separate topics that have nothing to do with each other. I cant help thinking you are just trying some clever tactic, for what I don't know. Who really says things like this, and doesn't explain what they are talking about?

End times:
I Believe Christ is reigning now over His church. He will return as Savoir of the body. He will deliver up the kingdom (church) to God (I Cor 15), there will be a Resurrection (a miracle in itself) the good and wicked will be raised, judged. The wicked will go away into everlasting punishment, the righteous into everlasting life (Matt 25). Death will be conquered ( I Cor 15) Satan will be thrown in the lake for fire and the Saints will live with Christ forever in the place he prepared for them. That about covers what I believe, now what in the world are you talking about?

Dont beat around the bush, just get it out.

 

[Crossfire]

Crossfire, seriously, I have no idea what your talking about. It surprised me you wrote this, I didn't see this in your character. First off, it did not get started, it is what the Bible teaches, I have shown you scriptural evidence, you have not dealt with at all. Instead you assume I believe maybe something you have heard, or maybe something I said in another post about end times? The real reason is what? If you think people deserve to know, why don't you tell them, including me, what you think? I cant read your mind, nor is there anything I believe about end times that would force the ceasing of miracles. The Text tells me this.
In fact they are two totally separate topics that have nothing to do with each other. I cant help thinking you are just trying some clever tactic, for what I don't know. Who really says things like this, and doesn't explain what they are talking about?

End times:
I Believe Christ is reigning now over His church. He will return as Savoir of the body. He will deliver up the kingdom (church) to God (I Cor 15), there will be a Resurrection (a miracle in itself) the good and wicked will be raised, judged. The wicked will go away into everlasting punishment, the righteous into everlasting life (Matt 25). Death will be conquered ( I Cor 15) Satan will be thrown in the lake for fire and the Saints will live with Christ forever in the place he prepared for them. That about covers what I believe, now what in the world are you talking about?

Dont beat around the bush, just get it out.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. It was not intended to be.

However, seeing as I'm somewhat familiar with church history, and given some of the content of your previos posts / threads, I figured everyone might be interested in hearing the origins of Cessationism and how it's very closely connected to Amillennialism, a doctrine which, if I'm not mistaken, you embrace. I figured that it be would better to get an explanation from someone who actually embraces the doctrine (thus knows more about it) then someone who can only offer the historical record.

If I'm wrong about your affiliation to Amillennialism then I apologize.

 

[feedm3]

Please do not take this as a personal attack. It was not intended to be.

However, seeing as I'm somewhat familiar with church history, and given some of the content of your previos posts / threads, I figured everyone might be interested in hearing the origins of Cessationism and how it's very closely connected to Amillennialism, a doctrine which, if I'm not mistaken, you embrace. If I'm wrong about your affiliation to Amillennialism then I apologize.

No not at all, I believe the kingdom is here and now, it is the church. I have no problem saying that, you act if it's something I want to hide that, or least that's how it seemed to me in how you presented that question.

Also it's strange how you think that is the root of why I believe in the ceasing of miracles. What does that have to do with miracles? This was not started from Amilllenialism, it tells us in the Bible the purpose for miracles and why they will cease. I showed you and others my support for that, scriptural, if you read it, you would see their is nothign about the kingdom in the passages I brought out, because it is not the root of the doctrine.
Personally I don't see how your connecting the two, are you sure your not trying to change the subject or something?

I have scriptural reasons for why I believe the church is the kingdom, and already here, awaiting to be delivered up to God by Christ. Also as for the 1000 years, more scriptural reasons for why that is not literal, and is a forced interpretation with no grounds of support. Yet that is a whole other topic, obviously not on this thread, if you want to discuss what I believe concerning this, I have no problem if you start a thread, or PM me. I love to study the Bible, any topic.

As I said, my reasons are posted, as for the kingdom rule in the future, I don't connect the two at all, don't see how anyone could. I know there will be miracles in the end, a Resurrection, and change of body, all supernatural events. But for the reasons I have stated, I believe that they have ceased, as the word edifies the church.

PS the best church history you can have it found in scripture, not secular readings. The church in NT was taught the ceasing, and as I showed in Acts 8, needed the Apostles for this purpose. Also the church in the NT were already in the Kingdom as Paul said in Col 1:13, and Jesus showed in Matt 16:18-19.

So the origins are not man made as you seem to be implying, but are an interpretation from scripture. Just as yours is I am sure. Still don't see how you connect them though.

 

[feedm3]

Ill response to anything else tomorrow, I am going to bed like I should have done 6 hours ago - Good night all, or really good morning and bye

 

[Crossfire]

No not at all, I believe the kingdom is here and now, it is the church. I have no problem saying that, you act if it's something I want to hide that, or least that's how it seemed to me in how you presented that question.

Also it's strange how you think that is the root of why I believe in the ceasing of miracles. What does that have to do with miracles? This was not started from Amilllenialism, it tells us in the Bible the purpose for miracles and why they will cease. I showed you and others my support for that, scriptural, if you read it, you would see their is nothign about the kingdom in the passages I brought out, because it is not the root of the doctrine.
Personally I don't see how your connecting the two, are you sure your not trying to change the subject or something?

I have scriptural reasons for why I believe the church is the kingdom, and already here, awaiting to be delivered up to God by Christ. Also as for the 1000 years, more scriptural reasons for why that is not literal, and is a forced interpretation with no grounds of support. Yet that is a whole other topic, obviously not on this thread, if you want to discuss what I believe concerning this, I have no problem if you start a thread, or PM me. I love to study the Bible, any topic.

As I said, my reasons are posted, as for the kingdom rule in the future, I don't connect the two at all, don't see how anyone could. I know there will be miracles in the end, a Resurrection, and change of body, all supernatural events. But for the reasons I have stated, I believe that they have ceased, as the word edifies the church.

PS the best church history you can have it found in scripture, not secular readings. The church in NT was taught the ceasing, and as I showed in Acts 8, needed the Apostles for this purpose. Also the church in the NT were already in the Kingdom as Paul said in Col 1:13, and Jesus showed in Matt 16:18-19.

So the origins are not man made as you seem to be implying, but are an interpretation from scripture. Just as yours is I am sure. Still don't see how you connect them though.

It appears that a history lesson on the origins of Cessationism is in order then. Historically speaking, Cessationism and Amilliennialism are heavily intertwined. Both emerged at the same from the same group of theologians. Unfortunately, I will be very busy over the next 10 days or so with work and my nephew's wedding out of state. I won't have time to gather all the info and insert the necessary commentary which connects all the dots until after my trip. Maybe I can find a video with all the necessary info which will save me a lot of typing and everyone else a lot of reading.

 

[Crossfire]

Ill response to anything else tomorrow, I am going to bed like I should have done 6 hours ago - Good night all, or really good morning and bye

Have a good night and a restful sleep. Also a blessed weekend to boot!

 

[feedm3]

It appears that a history lesson on the origins of Cessationism is in order then. Historically speaking, Cessationism and Amilliennialism are heavily intertwined. Both emerged at the same from the same group of theologians. Unfortunately, I will be very busy over the next 10 days or so with work and my nephew's wedding out of state. I won't have time to gather all the info and insert the necessary commentary which connects all the dots until after my trip. Maybe I can find a video with all the necessary info which will save me a lot of typing and everyone else a lot of reading.

You can if you want to, but like I said it's not what I believe, nor how I came to the conclusion that miracles will cease.
It doesn't really matter to me if a person or a people believed about the kingdom who also believed what I do concerning miracles.
I gave you my reasons for why I believe in the the ceasing of miracles. I conveyed why I believe them just fine without any of what you believe were the origins. Maybe you ought to deal with the reasons I have brought up, rather than wasting your time showing me what someone teaches concerning history of people that really have nothing to do with what I brought up, Nor will it be a refutation, seeing that I did not use any kingdom passages. Just saying if it's alot of typing, might as well just do it refuting what I did say rather than what I didn't - seeing I gave you a good, valid, argument, that no one has dealt with.

Also, look up the origin of the Pre-millennial view , because the first century Jews did not believe it, neither did the Apostles, as they were expecting it then when they asked "will thou now restore the kingdom to Israel", they were looking for a physical kingdom, as many are still doing now. Yet Paul said he himself, and the Col were already in the Kingdom, as well as the Apostle John who also claimed to be in the kingdom - Rev 1:9.

Jesus showed it was not physical, and also spoke of it as existing at the time when he said = Jn 18:34 "my kingdom is not of the world if it were my servants would fight" - he did not say "not IN the world", but "NOT OF" just as he said his followers were not OF the world - Jn 17.
John the baptist spoke of it's coming as imminent, not in the end of the ages, as he said "repent the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

I figured if you want to discuss it go ahead, all threads end up on another topic eventually anyways. Or if you want to start with the church history lesson and refute what I never said, then go ahead, Im always up to learn something new. So it wont be a total waste of time. Any way I am really going to bed now - Crossfire, to you sleep - lol - I do, so see ya and good night my friend.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Cessationist.

I believe there are no more apostles.
'' prophets
'' miracles as signs

I also do not believe what Pentecostals believe about the term Speaking in Tongues. It is not gibberish, but a human language.

Acts 2
7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

Thus, as a result I'm not sure about Speaking in Tongues. Have yet to investigate.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

I too am a skeptic when it comes to touges, as I feel many look like they are acting when using it.
However, a man in our church has the gift of tounges, I am certain. I have no idea what language he is talking, but I do believe it is a human one, because though I do not understand the words, the rythm sounds very natural. Also, there seem to be distinct words, not just random sounds. And it sounds the same way every time he use it. (He never makes a big deal out of it. He stands up, talks, waits for translation, talks some more, waits for further translation and sits back down).

 

[Crossfire]

Also, look up the origin of the Pre-millennial view , because the first century Jews did not believe it, neither did the Apostles, as they were expecting it then when they asked "will thou now restore the kingdom to Israel", they were looking for a physical kingdom, as many are still doing now. Yet Paul said he himself, and the Col were already in the Kingdom, as well as the Apostle John who also claimed to be in the kingdom - Rev 1:9.

It is a historical fact that the Apostles as well as the First Century church were Premillennialists. Both Paul and John taught that Christ would one day return literally to establish His Kingdom here on earth.

While I would agree with you that there is a spiritual element of the kingdom which can experienced now (ie. the indwelling Holy Spirit), the term "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" does not mean that the kingdom of heaven is now. If you do you research, the Jews understood the term "at hand" to mean "in front of you" or "has come near" or "within arms reach". In other words, what they were saying is that the kingdom of heaven is obtainable.

If Christ or John the Baptizer had intended to say that the kingdom is now they have used the Jewish term which means "about face" or "at face" which would have meant that the kingdom is before your eyes or for all to see. Both Jewish terms used to mean "at hand" and "about face" were commonly used and understood in Christ's time in Christ's time.

Unfortunately, it's been a few years since I attended seminary thus I do not remember the exact words used off of the top of my head. However, considering this is a highly contested topic for the last several centuries, I'm sure it would be easy to pull up information online to support a wide variety of different views on the subject.

Anyways FeedM3, I didn't start my line of questioning to debate you but rather to see if you actually understood what it is that you actually believe. In the modern era, most do not recognize the connection between Cessationism & Amillennialism thus they are approached and treat as two entirely different subjects when in truth they are both parts of one larger perspective, a perspective that would also include the idea of "super saints" thus leading to the reverance / worship of saints in certain sects of early Christianity. While I'm sure that you most likely do not observe such tradition Feedm3, whether you want to believe it or not, your beliefs teeter on the borders of Catholicism.

 

[Snackersmom]

I too am a skeptic when it comes to touges, as I feel many look like they are acting when using it.
However, a man in our church has the gift of tounges, I am certain. I have no idea what language he is talking, but I do believe it is a human one, because though I do not understand the words, the rythm sounds very natural. Also, there seem to be distinct words, not just random sounds. And it sounds the same way every time he use it. (He never makes a big deal out of it. He stands up, talks, waits for translation, talks some more, waits for further translation and sits back down).

YES. EXACTLY. Tongues is easy to fake, and doing so can leave a bad taste in people's mouth. When most people think of the gifts of The Spirit, they envision the chaotic "I'm-more-spiritual-than-all-of-you-people" ridiculousness that often results when a group forgets that Paul admonished that the gifts should be exercised "Decently and in order". Not everyone who says that they have the gift of tongues really does, just as very few who claim to be a prophet really are. In fact, even if a person is know to have the gift of prophesy, their message is always supposed to be "judged" by others with the same gift.

Discernment of the Body is SO important, there are many who would take advantage of people's hunger for a word from God, and use it to manipulate others. Sounds like you're exercising the gift of discernment, Miss Kilden .

Funny, but few would deny that the gifts of discernment, teaching, and faith are still active today, yet you often see people "rejecting" those gifts that they find more "Out there", such as prophesy and signs and healings. Why? Would God give "bad" gifts to His kids? If we ask for an egg, will He give us a scorpion? If you question the validity of certain gifts, why not ask God if they are real? Tell Him, "Hey, if they're from you, and you want me to have them, then load me up, Sir!" You won't get a scorpion, I promise

 

[feedm3]

It is a historical fact that the Apostles as well as the First Century church were Premillennialists. Both Paul and John taught that Christ would one day return literally to establish His Kingdom here on earth.

While I would agree with you that there is a spiritual element of the kingdom which can experienced now (ie. the indwelling Holy Spirit), the term "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" does not mean that the kingdom of heaven is now. If you do you research, the Jews understood the term "at hand" to mean "in front of you" or "has come near" or "within arms reach". In other words, what they were saying is that the kingdom of heaven is obtainable.

If Christ or John the Baptizer had intended to say that the kingdom is now they have used the Jewish term which means "about face" or "at face" which would have meant that the kingdom is before your eyes or for all to see. Both Jewish terms used to mean "at hand" and "about face" were commonly used and understood in Christ's time in Christ's time.

Unfortunately, it's been a few years since I attended seminary thus I do not remember the exact words used off of the top of my head. However, considering this is a highly contested topic for the last several centuries, I'm sure it would be easy to pull up information online to support a wide variety of different views on the subject.

Anyways FeedM3, I didn't start my line of questioning to debate you but rather to see if you actually understood what it is that you actually believe. In the modern era, most do not recognize the connection between Cessationism & Amillennialism thus they are approached and treat as two entirely different subjects when in truth they are both parts of one larger perspective, a perspective that would also include the idea of "super saints" thus leading to the reverance / worship of saints in certain sects of early Christianity. While I'm sure that you most likely do not observe such tradition Feedm3, whether you want to believe it or not, your beliefs teeter on the borders of Catholicism.

Crossfire, saying things like "to see if you understand what you believe" is just arrogant and unnecessary. I am sorry if you wont deal with arguments, so you want to sound smarter in knowing more about what I beleieve then I do, yet never touching on it.
I just dealt with this with another. I am glad you were taught the Bible by another, and am glad you know all the origins of doctrines that don't agree with yours. But one thing is for sure, if you only tell people how smart you are, do not show what you are talking about, do not deal with the arguments at hand, and must refute everything they did not say or believe, instead of what they did say, sounds as if that education might be hindering you.

You should try listening and asking, not telling people what they believe, seriously, it is not impressive, nor does it intimate anyone. Actually it gives the oppististe feeling. In fact it leads me to assume that you really cant deal with what scripture says, so you just fight yourself in what others told you I believe.

If it would be easy to pull up online, then why dont you, since your the one talking about this? I am not going to search online so I can see what you believe that you think I believe, that's your job, your the one bringing all this up, that does not deal with anything I have said. Telling me this shows me not really as familar with your own beliefs if you cant just tell me what your talking about.

 

[Dude653]

Why would God stop giving gifts of the spirit..that wouldnt make any sense.

 

[Snackersmom]

^^^ Quit popping wheelies on your Harley, Buster!

 

[feedm3]

Why would God stop giving gifts of the spirit..that wouldnt make any sense.

If you go back a page, I explained why I think they have ceased. You don't have to agree, just letting you know I gave my explanation if you have not already read it.

 

[resurrection33]

Support your side like a champion!

I believe we should all follow the example of Jesus, who humbly washed people’s feet, rather than boast we are prophets, or foolishness like that.

 

[Dude653]

If you go back a page, I explained why I think they have ceased. You don't have to agree, just letting you know I gave my explanation if you have not already read it.

Well I read your post. Your scriptures are all taken out of context and say nothing to back up your claim. So i still disagree.

 

[Dude653]

And I would also like to add that saying that the gifts are no longer needed is like saying that we no longer have an adversary..such as oh....who could it be........uhhh.....the devil????

 

[feedm3]

Well I read your post. Your scriptures are all taken out of context and say nothing to back up your claim. So i still disagree.

YEA, AND IF YOU CANT SHOW HOW, THEN YOUR JUST SAYING RIGHT?