Continuationism vs cessastionism?

[zone]

Kathy, few more years and maybe it all will become even more clearer, there always will be tares amongst the wheat, God will guard ones heart regardless, who truly just love Him for Him and the only things left is love.

Hmmm hope faith love and only love remains lolz.

Hope is found in Jesus, not deferred so the heart doesn't become sick, does for those who put hope in man and thie things of this world

Faith is given, well true faith is Jesus and the finished work of the cross

What's left but love that far exceeds any "gifts"
My abc Christianity theological intellectual grasp of it all, of course that I'm saved by grace not law

I think you missed the point I was making, it's when "theology" takes over from the simple message of the good news. Martha Martha then lives live and well lolz

Out of 2billion odd Christians it would be interesting which stand for what "doctrinal teaching" of ists isms and such and how many just for the love of Jesus without the ism ists and such.

yes.
there's that either or.

i guess you're the 2nd person and i'm the first. that's ok. you're a far better christian than i am alex.
i'm working on it.

love you
zone.

 

[Abiding]

Opps what was the topic again

 

[Crossfire]

Apparently Martin Luther, the author of the 5 Solas, not only believed in the Spiritual gifts but also operated in them as well. Any attempt to use Sola Scriptura in order to discredit the Spiritual gifts are invalid.

Many on these forums attempt to use Sola Scriptura in order to discredit the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, what many do not know is that the historical account shows that Luther, the author of Sola Scriptura, seemed to operate in several gifts himself.

Martin Luther

Martin Luther was a German Catholic theologian, and subsequently a reformer, because of his encounter with the Holy Scriptures. Early in his association with the Catholic priesthood, Luther faced a stubborn spiritual dilemma:he earnestly sought spiritual peace and could not find it in the prescribed penances advocated by church leaders. Reverently, but persistently, he continued to try,but with no success


One day he was reading the epistle to the Romans. Suddenly, God made the apostle Paul’s statement, “The just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17) real to Luther. At last, he experienced the inner assurance he had been seeking. This discovery changed his life. But another dilemma appeared:he began noticing other discrepancies between the practices of the Church and the clear statements of the Bible.



Consequently, as the truths of Scripture dawned on him, he began to publicly express his differences with the practices of the Catholic Church. On October 31, 1517, he nailed his famous 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Castle Church. Initially, he respectfully only sought to discuss his concerns.
Most of Luther’s friends and church leaders perceived his action as a serious confrontation of Catholic authority. As a consequence, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther in 1520. Regrettably, there followed determined efforts to murder Luther. Church leaders believed it would benefit both God and the Church by exterminating this notorious heretic. But German officials shielded Luther from assassination, largely because of their nationalistic loyalties, rather than strong religious convictions.


Luther’s innovative theological ideas and his break with the Catholic Church eventually led to his becoming the primary leader of the German Reformation. This opened the door for many of Luther’s affiliates to reexamine the prevailing theological positions of the Church.1


After Luther’s expulsion from the Catholic Church, Lutheranism continued to rush toward a determined Protestant ideology, undoubtedly according to God’s design. This transformation continued even after Luther’s death in 1546. The pent-up longing for relevant ministry to the real-life needs of the populace — so long denied them but now at least promised — suddenly came flooding forth, demanding even more. Some of Luther’s contemporaries even accused him of being only a “half reformer” because of his hesitancy to make major adjustments beyond his own initial rediscoveries.


In many instances, the new Protestant populations grew, often becoming so dominant these Protestants displaced local governments and/or often transformed existing Catholic churches into Lutheran congregations. In these churches, they politely sidelined Catholic icons so the former Catholic Cathedral might function as a Lutheran worship center. We can observe the results of this transformation today. In Rothenberg, Germany, at least two former Catholic churches, both just off the city square, have undergone the re-orientation from Catholicism to Lutheranism.


An interesting commentary on Luther’s theology continues to surface in the annals of church history. The original source is the German church historian R. Kuntze (1859) who wrote: “Luther was easily the greatest evangelical man after the apostles, full of inner love to the Lord like John, hasty in deed like Peter, deep in thinking like Paul, cunning and powerful in speech like Elijah, uncompromising against God’s enemies like David; prophet and evangelist, speaker in tongues and interpreter in one person, equipped withal the gifts of grace, a light and pillar of the church”2 (emphasis mine).


It is possible that this statement, implying that Luther might have had some form of charismatic experience,wasmadeon February 18, 1846, as a memorialat the third centennial anniversary of Luther’s death. At this point, however, one cannot be sure of its original intent because of the absence of corroborating testimony. Was this meant to indicate that Luther had experienced a personal Pentecost? Or was this statement intended only as a panegyric, lauding Luther’s pioneering Protestant convictions? Or could this declaration be based on biographical information not yet fully documented?
Regrettably, there is not enough evidence at this point to be absolutely certain. However, since the Pentecostal experience has historically cut across many denominational boundaries, it is not unreasonable to suppose that Luther, in his role as an apostle of Protestantism, may have privately enjoyed a Pentecostal experience. Certainly, the terminology used hererelating to tongues,interpreter of tongues, prophet, etc.does suggest that the tongues experience was not unknown to Luther’s biographers and perhaps even to Luther himself.


One fact in history is very clear, however, Luther did have encounters with the Anabaptist prophets of Zwickau who reportedly were experiencing the gifts of the Spirit in their congregations. Luther, however, evidently considered them Schwarmers or fanatics because he believed they were unnecessarily aggressive in their evangelization efforts.3


Nonetheless, A.J. Gordon, in his book, The Ministry of Healing, quotes Luther: “How often has it happened and still does, that devils have been driven out in the name of Christ, also by calling on his name and prayer that the sick have been healed?”4


To illustrate Luther’s belief in divine deliverance, Gordon observes further that healings did occur when Luther prayed for the sick and for the possessed: “In 1541, when Myconius lay speechless in the final stages of consumption, Luther prayed and he was restored to health. Melancthon lay near death of a fever, face sunken and eyes glassy, knowing no one. But Luther sought God and he [Melancthon] began to mend from that hour. ‘I should have been a dead man,’ said Melancthon, ‘had I not been recalled from death itself by the coming of Luther.’ ” [Regarding Luther’s deliverance ministry, A.J. Gordon continues] “When called to deal with a demon-possessed girl, Luther laid hands on her, quoting ‘the works I do shall he do also,’[John 14:12] and prayed for her, whereupon she completely recovered.”5

 

[Consumed]

yes.
there's that either or.

i guess you're the 2nd person and i'm the first. that's ok. you're a far better christian than i am alex.
i'm working on it.

love you
zone.

No ones good but God lolz

We are to make crooked paths straight, well Jesus actually straightens us out thru santification, now thats a good gift in itself lolz good some things didn't cease 

 

[zone]

Opps what was the topic again

if its about chocolates, flowers and puppies that is the subject.

 

[zone]

Apparently Martin Luther, the author of the 5 Solas, not only believed in the Spiritual gifts but also operated in them as well. Any attempt to use Sola Scriptura in order to discredit the Spiritual gifts are invalid.

citation please?

 

[Muskokaman]

Well I guess the only way around this is through it lets use only the words of Jesus nothing more nothing less. Lets not use other mens opinions (after all we are all Protestants who are arguing over this anyway) The Catholics very much recognize miracles as do the EOC.

I like using what I call the Jesus model when deducing theological arguments and I base my whole theories foundation on strictly THE WORDS OF CHRIST
Show me even ONE statement by Jesus ("Them there's the red words yup!") that contravenes continuationist belief structure JUST ONE!

Before you say" Are you comparing yourself or any other person to Jesus? just WHOA THERE EASY!

Just as Jesus imparted some of the spirit on the disciples so does the Holy Spirit with all men until his second coming!

Like I said if Jesus is the model then BE ALL YOU CAN BE He came for our salvation and is the way,the truth, and the light. He is our teacher so we should aspire to be like him whether we attain that level (which assuredly none will) is irrelevant.

Jesus spoke much about having faith and one of my favourites sentences he ever spoke was this;

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Jesus told us all we need is faith the gifts have never ceased just our ability to use them directly caused by LACK OF FAITH nothing more!

Selah

 

[zone]

Jesus told us all we need is faith the gifts have never ceased just our ability to use them directly caused by LACK OF FAITH nothing more!

sounds good
not biblical

 

[Muskokaman]

sounds good
not biblical

So then you deny Matthew 17:20 yes or no?

 

[Muskokaman]

I'll take that as a no!

 

[Abiding]

I hope this isnt an interruption but the verse you quote needs to stay in context...surely
you cant pop over to Paris by faith.

Demons is the context...and mountains have a biblical usage already
this is not a magic formula that controls God or the laws of nature.
In its intended meaning, it is a powerful verse.

Nothing impossible has to stay in the context of moving mountains
and demons. Further good study is recommended.

 

[Muskokaman]

I hope this isnt an interruption but the verse you quote needs to stay in context...surely
you cant pop over to Paris by faith.

Demons is the context...and mountains have a biblical usage already
this is not a magic formula that controls God or the laws of nature.
In its intended meaning, it is a powerful verse.

Nothing impossible has to stay in the context of moving mountains
and demons. Further good study is recommended.

If you can move a mountain or a demon you could heal too, we have no more need of prophecy and haven't had since Christ died on the cross for our sins he will come back of that there is no doubt he told us so himself and all the theologians, mathematicians and prophets alike will not know of his coming hour.
Pretribbers and the like concern themselves greatly with this pointless debate of which I personally see no point. It's nothing more than a snare for the boastful scribe!

Getting into contextual debate over usages of a word or phrase has been the stumbling block of the ages.
And yes I suppose if your faith was great enough you might find yourself in Paris by Faith Alone.

You just may question the methodology and its authenticity of origin as Divine in nature

 

[Abiding]

If you can move a mountain or a demon you could heal too, we have no more need of prophecy and haven't had since Christ died on the cross for our sins he will come back of that there is no doubt he told us so himself and all the theologians, mathematicians and prophets alike will not know of his coming hour.
Pretribbers and the like concern themselves greatly with this pointless debate of which I personally see no point. It's nothing more than a snare for the boastful scribe!

Getting into contextual debate over usages of a word or phrase has been the stumbling block of the ages.
And yes I suppose if your faith was great enough you might find yourself in Paris by Faith Alone.

You just may question the methodology and its authenticity of origin as Divine in nature

Well go to town...ok with me. Thing is demons and mountains(learn what that is and how it is related to demons) and healing are not related, and not a guarantee in the atonement, nor a promise given in scripture.
But im all for healings, And the Lord gives them as He sees fit. How much faith does it take from a dead
man to be ressurected?

 

[Strangelove]

So then you deny Matthew 17:20 yes or no?

So nothing will be impossible to you right?

Ok lets see you fly to the moon on a surfboard.

A test of faith.

 

[Muskokaman]

So nothing will be impossible to you right?

Ok lets see you fly to the moon on a surfboard.

A test of faith.

It is written thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test!

 

[Strangelove]

It is written thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test!

But its ok for you to judge someones faith on whether or not they display 'gifts'?

 

[Muskokaman]

Well go to town...ok with me. Thing is demons and mountains(learn what that is and how it is related to demons) and healing are not related, and not a guarantee in the atonement, nor a promise given in scripture.
But im all for healings, And the Lord gives them as He sees fit. How much faith does it take from a dead
man to be ressurected?

When you say Learn what that is in referrence to demons and mountains I suppose you refer to another mans interpretation of what the scripture means not necessarily the real meaning of the scripture itself

I am fully aware of the context in which it was used and to whom they were referring to in the select passages quoted on I have read the bible since I was a child and although I'm no scripture quoting master I can comprehend a passage describing the apostles lack of faith for their inability to remove the demons from the person they were trying to cure and what Jesus meant when he said what I quoted from Matthew 17:20

 

[zone]

If you can move a mountain or a demon you could heal too, we have no more need of prophecy and haven't had since Christ died on the cross for our sins he will come back of that there is no doubt he told us so himself and all the theologians, mathematicians and prophets alike will not know of his coming hour.
Pretribbers and the like concern themselves greatly with this pointless debate of which I personally see no point. It's nothing more than a snare for the boastful scribe!

Getting into contextual debate over usages of a word or phrase has been the stumbling block of the ages.
And yes I suppose if your faith was great enough you might find yourself in Paris by Faith Alone.

You just may question the methodology and its authenticity of origin as Divine in nature

So then you deny Matthew 17:20 yes or no?

the mountain Jesus was duscussing was the Temple Mount system/apostate israel.
He was saying their faith would see them through the persecution coming from it.

is that what you meant?
or do you mean God wants us to do a prayer walk around Mt Shasta and move it to Canada?
if so, send it to my house. it's pretty.

the fig tree He cursed was also apostate israel

 

[zone]

Well go to town...ok with me. Thing is demons and mountains(learn what that is and how it is related to demons) and healing are not related, and not a guarantee in the atonement, nor a promise given in scripture.
But im all for healings, And the Lord gives them as He sees fit. How much faith does it take from a dead man to be ressurected?

Word Faith 11
When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, when you have enough faith, come out.” The man who had died mustered up enough faith to come out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. It was said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go, his faith was impressive”

 

[zone]

Apparently Martin Luther, the author of the 5 Solas, not only believed in the Spiritual gifts but also operated in them as well. Any attempt to use Sola Scriptura in order to discredit the Spiritual gifts are invalid.

could i get your citation on that please? 2nd request.
ty

here's what i have found:

1. Concentric Cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel (Martin Luther and John Calvin, though they were somewhat inconsistent in this position. Daniel B. Wallace is now the most prominent scholar to hold this view).

THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY: Cessationism

In my Contending Earnestly for the Faith[2] letter (March 2010, p. 25) I wrote that the following Christian leaders were cessationists (the gifts of the Spirit ceased when the Scriptures were complete). These include Athanasius, Luther, Calvin, Matthew Henry, C.H. Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, and a multitude of current leaders such as John Macarthur & Norman Geisler.

The editor’s note at the end of the letter stated: “I am not sure that you are quite right in labelling C. H. Spurgeon and possibly some of the others, whom you have named, as ‘cessationists’” (p. 26).
Let’s check the evidence. What did the people I mentioned believe about continuation or cessation of spiritual gifts?

John Piper, an outstanding expositor of the Scriptures from Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, MN, and founder of Desiring God Ministries, wrote: “Virtually all the great pastors and teachers of history that I admire and that have fed me over the years belong to the … group who believe that signs and wonders were only for the apostolic age (John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Benjamin Warfield, my own father). But I am not fully persuaded by their case”.[3] This is some of the evidence of cessationism from the history of the church.

Truth Challenge Blog Archive Cessationism through church history

I think this is a rather strange position to take as men like Benjamin Warfield (see “The Cessation of the Charismata”) and Martin Luther before him were certainly “willing to die on the hill of cessationism” when confronted with the wild assertions and claims of the Enthusiasts and Anabaptists, something it seems the modern day Reformed men are unwilling to do.

God's Hammer

and we may as well hear from Luther himself:

Martin Luther (1483–1546)

In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.

(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6.)



so if you could retract that false witness against Luther it would be much appreciated.
as a continuationist you really shouldn't need to resort to falsifying the record concerning the cessationist position of men like Luther.

FIND YOUR OWN EXAMPLES PLEASE.
ty.

i would like to add these tactics are SINFUL.
please just provide legitimate examples of approved five-folders through church history.