Contradiction or Not?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L

Loloy

Guest
#21
jeremiah 32:27“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?
hope this answers it for you
Your right Consumed... there's nothing too hard for the Lord... and i believe it...
I believe He created the universe... I believe He can do everything...

But the question is... why does it not fit?... the recorded events in the beginning chapters of the Genesis... contradicted..

Maybe there's an explanation for this... but not quiet refined...
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#22
There is not actual contradiction because the accounts are not historical narratives - that is, they aren't meant to convey a literal history of creation but instead are putting the act of creation into terms that its original audience could understand.




Lurker
If the account is not a historical narratives?... how come does it says... day1.. day2..day3...day4...day5...day6...day7... this is an accurate dates of creation...
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#23
Loloy,

Go to Genesis 2:3; "And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (He created it to make it.) He created those ideas, thoughts, plans, blueprints and will formate those into a formation of those plans.

God had given Noah plans to build an Ark and He gave Noah those plans in a few days. But, building the ark took many, many years.

God gave Moses plans for the tabernacle but building it took a long time.

Genesis chapter 1 only appears that everything was formed right then but in reality on each day God laid out the plans for the future formation of the earth and the heavens. The process is still going on and will continue to go on because at the end of this process we will have new bodies, new heavens and new earth because they too were part of this plan.

I will tell you what is really interesting about Genesis chapter 1 is the verse 16; And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

Many have always believed this to be the moon but this does not say the moon. We have added that because we do have a moon but it was possibly Satarn.
After the flood it was dark. This is where cults got their start. Building the tower of Babel looking for Satarn. From then on Satarn has been worship in nearly all cultures by many different names throughout all of history. Some reports on the net have said the sun is going out so maybe NASA will try to relight Satarn. These are just different views.

God bless your walk. The bible is a wonderful book.
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#24
I highly doubt it given the complete lack of any frame of reference.
What frame of reference do you need to understand a long period of time? At what point did humans have the proper reference point for understanding a long period of time?

What frame of reference do you need to understand x changed into y? At what point did humans have the proper reference point for understanding the basic idea of evolution? Obviously it was understood by some ancient Greeks. So why don't you give us more reason than your "highly doubt it" to believe that the audience of Genesis couldn't have understood that?

In the sense that it does not fall easily into any one genre.
So you're claiming "biblical scholars of virtually every opinion" agree that Genesis doesn't "fall easily" into a genre. Could you back that up? Can you show that's the general consensus?

You are missing my meaning - it's not that the Creation account taken literally includes miracles, it's that the Creation account taken literally directly contradicts the evidence we have. Even miracles leave evidence behind - when Christ healed the blind the result was a man who could now see, when He rose from the dead there was an empty tomb - can you find an example of a miracle which leaves deceitful evidence behind which indicates that it never happened? Because that's what would have to have happened for the Creation account to be literal - a series of miracles that made it look like no miracles occurred.
I didn't miss your meaning. You said "[Genesis] can be interpreted literally, and it can be interpreted as more symbolic allegorical--but only one of these interpretations has the benefit of not contradicting what we observe about how the universe works."

All I have to do is plug in a different narrative for Genesis and see how it holds up: "[The Jesus narrative] can be interpreted literally..."

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Now if you want to change boats and give different reasons, that's fine. I'll see how your new reasons hold up.

Jesus heals a blind man. If you took that blind man to a modern optometrist, do you know that the optometrist would be able to examine the formerly blind man and say "I can see that this man was blind until last Tuesday, when he suddenly regained his sight"? Is that the sort of evidence of miracle you have in mind? If so, how do you know that would be the case?

Jesus multiplies bread and fish. If you take the fish, for instance, to a marine biologist and show him the fish would he be able to deduce that it was produced miraculously by examining it's biological structure or its genetics? Is that the sort of evidence that would be left behind? If so, how do you know that would be the case?

Jesus rises from the dead. If you took his body and examined it, would you have been able to say "this body was dead for three days!"? Granted this is a sui generis case, since Jesus was raised in a glorified body.

But in fact, you have no direct evidence that Jesus healed a blind man or that he multiplied food, so your excuses don't get you very far. Your reading a narrative that was written thousands of years ago to a "primitive" audience that didn't have our knowledge of genetics, biology, optics, etc. Everything we do know about how those systems operate contradicts a literal reading of these narratives. So I don't see how you've escaped the conclusion by your own method that, at least, it's more beneficial for us to believe it's all non-historical.

You want to plug the hole in your boat by claiming there would be evidence for these miracles. But, thus far, it's not clear what kind of evidence you think there would be and, on one account (e.g., that an optometrist could tell that the man had been blind), this looks highly implausible. What reason do we have to accept this?

can you find an example of a miracle which leaves deceitful evidence behind which indicates that it never happened?
Can you even find an example of a miracle which leaves behind evidence that indicates it didn't occur by natural processes? How many miraculous subjects have you studied after the fact? After all, if I wanted to get cute with you I could point out that God caused the red sea to split by a strong wind. That looks like a natural process, yet if anything qualifies as a surely miracle that does. So is that "deceitful evidence"

And if you want to play the "deceitful" card, that cuts both ways. Instead of God deceiving 21st century scientists, with their causal-closer presuppositions, God deceived the original audience of Genesis and millions of Christians throughout history by having a narrative recorded that seems to clearly teach something contrary to what you say actually happened.

So you trade God the deceiver in nature with God the deceiver in Scripture. Look good?

Now you may want to argue that Genesis doesn't intend to communicate this deceitful message, but then a lot of YEC will want to argue that the evidence in the natural order isn't intended to communicate a deceitful message either. So, again, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#25
Would you be so kind to let us know who it is you are talking to?
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#26
Loloy,

Go to Genesis 2:3; "And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (He created it to make it.) He created those ideas, thoughts, plans, blueprints and will formate those into a formation of those plans.

God had given Noah plans to build an Ark and He gave Noah those plans in a few days. But, building the ark took many, many years.

God gave Moses plans for the tabernacle but building it took a long time.

Genesis chapter 1 only appears that everything was formed right then but in reality on each day God laid out the plans for the future formation of the earth and the heavens. The process is still going on and will continue to go on because at the end of this process we will have new bodies, new heavens and new earth because they too were part of this plan.

I will tell you what is really interesting about Genesis chapter 1 is the verse 16; And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

Many have always believed this to be the moon but this does not say the moon. We have added that because we do have a moon but it was possibly Satarn.
After the flood it was dark. This is where cults got their start. Building the tower of Babel looking for Satarn. From then on Satarn has been worship in nearly all cultures by many different names throughout all of history. Some reports on the net have said the sun is going out so maybe NASA will try to relight Satarn. These are just different views.

God bless your walk. The bible is a wonderful book.
Indeed the Bible is a marvelous book... In fact it changed my life... I was Just concerned maybe in the near future I will encounter this same kind of problem, and i would not just let this kind of confusion go hanging...

I hope and I wish I would Just convince myself that the Chapter 1 is just a blueprint...
But the fact is it is not... it is an execution of God's command...

We will try reread the verses:
1:3-4 -And God said, "Let there be light", and there was light. And God saw that the light was good.
the word "saw" is a simple past tense of see - when God "saw" it means God has seen His execution, His creation... it happened not just a blueprint...
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#27
Another thing... If the chapter 1 is just a plan, or blueprint... does it mean that God's creation does not go according to it's plan... If God plan for creation is in chapter1 and it's execution is in chapter 2... then why does still it does not fit?... Supposedly the chronological order of God's plan in chapter 1 should be the same format on chapter 2... If you plan to build a skyscraper you should build a skyscraper not a an ordinary house...
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#28
Sorry this is like straining a camel to get a gnat
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#29
Loloy, that is okay. Let us see this verse again.

Genesis 1:3,4; "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (4) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

God can move forward in time and he can move backward in time.
On a deeper level He saw his creation, yes, but we can also look on a spiritual level and see something more.

light, is #215 from #216 from James Strongs Concordence and it means luminous (lit. and metaph): x break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine. luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, +day, light (-ing), morning, sun.

When you do a study on Jesus you will find that light is pointing to him in this verse. You may actually find the scriptures to match most of these words throughout scriptures that will describe Jesus.
God planned for Jesus, the light of the world, to fill in when man has failed. God saw that man would fail. God divided the light from the darkness (evil).
God saw Jesus.

God had a plan for man. That is what the bible is all about. He also had a plan for man in case man messed up and of course that happened. We are given free will to choose to follow God's plan or not. Everyone has to make that dicision. He knew what he was building but only he gave us the freedom to come to him or not.
In Genesis 1:2 we read the word "void" which means an empty wasteland (#922). It means to be empty. It's a state or manner before habitation.
God is telling us something about ourselves.........we are like that wasteland, we are empty till the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...(Jesus is the living waters).
The bible is telling us more of the hidden history of God's creation. It truely is a wonderful book.
God Bless your walk. Continue reading and hope this has helped. You understand more than you know.
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#30
Loloy,
This is the creation plan for man but God did not create Jesus. The blueprints included mans for and Jesus was willing to do the Father's will to redeem men if they failed.
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#31
Loloy, that is okay. Let us see this verse again.

Genesis 1:3,4; "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (4) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

God can move forward in time and he can move backward in time.
On a deeper level He saw his creation, yes, but we can also look on a spiritual level and see something more.

light, is #215 from #216 from James Strongs Concordence and it means luminous (lit. and metaph): x break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine. luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, +day, light (-ing), morning, sun.

When you do a study on Jesus you will find that light is pointing to him in this verse. You may actually find the scriptures to match most of these words throughout scriptures that will describe Jesus.
God planned for Jesus, the light of the world, to fill in when man has failed. God saw that man would fail. God divided the light from the darkness (evil).
God saw Jesus.

God had a plan for man. That is what the bible is all about. He also had a plan for man in case man messed up and of course that happened. We are given free will to choose to follow God's plan or not. Everyone has to make that dicision. He knew what he was building but only he gave us the freedom to come to him or not.
In Genesis 1:2 we read the word "void" which means an empty wasteland (#922). It means to be empty. It's a state or manner before habitation.
God is telling us something about ourselves.........we are like that wasteland, we are empty till the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...(Jesus is the living waters).
The bible is telling us more of the hidden history of God's creation. It truely is a wonderful book.
God Bless your walk. Continue reading and hope this has helped. You understand more than you know.
Tnx... for this...

i think you make it more confusing...

Jesus is the light in the first creation?... did you mean Jesus is a created being?... I basically did not agree with that...(this will lead to another topic stick to the thread)

What i'm trying to point here is, how can we reconcile the two existing creation accounts which is plainly a contradiction?...

Yes maybe, maybe if the 1 creation account is a plan and God saw it in the future... How come, that it is not fitted into the 2nd creation account?...

Supposedly God is all knowing, and His words never fail... but why does still 1 and 2 accounts does not fit?
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#32
Loloy,
Take the time to study other parts of the bible. When one gets confused on just one part sometimes God will show you through time from other parts of his word what it is you are looking for. God is not a God of confusion. So when we do get confused on the one part move on. In time, God will open us for you his great understanding.

Don't worry, it take time but never give up.
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#33
Loloy,
Take the time to study other parts of the bible. When one gets confused on just one part sometimes God will show you through time from other parts of his word what it is you are looking for. God is not a God of confusion. So when we do get confused on the one part move on. In time, God will open us for you his great understanding.

Don't worry, it take time but never give up.
Yes... i will... and I'm studying it everyday....


Most of the time, the only thing to resolve the subject is to avoid the subject and move to another subject...

I know there's an answer for this, and I will know it....
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#34
I've been reading the bible and almost finish it... but when i look back at the beginning chapters of Genesis.. I found it very confusing...(?)

Ok, here it is... it's all about the creation accounts...

I found out that the 1st and 2nd Chapter of Genesis are two creation accounts..
As I observed the first creation account (Gen. 1:1-31) is a general description of how God created the universe and the earth... The second account is (Gen. 2:4-25) which describe the detailed creation of the earth and the humans..

But each account does not fit into each other... the chronological arrangement of creation has been distorted...
Look at these:
1st account: (Gen. 1:1-31)
1. Light -
2. Sky (atmosphere)
3. Dry Ground - Vegetation
4. Sun, Moon, Stars
5. Birds and Fishes
6. Beast and Man (male and female)
7. God rested

2nd Account:(Gen2:4-25)
1. Earth
2. Bodies of water
3. Man
4. Vegetation
5. Beast - birds, fishes and all kinds of animals
6. Woman

The order of first account is entirely different from the second one... The fist account it says Man (Male and Female) are made at the same day and the last creation of all creations, before God rested.. While the second account it says Woman is the last creation after the animals and vegetation.. And the Adam (male) is created before the vegetations and the beast... (???)

How come?...

And the first account also is a questionable one... If God created the vegies before the Sun... How can plant's survive without the Sun?

Can somebody have a simple explanation for this? because i tried to question one of our theologians for this confusing order of creation accounts.. and i'm not yet satisfied for His answers...
Help please... i need some answers...
people i think might of got it.......i think i might be thinking on the same page.....

God explains what are to come, and then later He details it even more......kinda like narrator and then the motion pictures afterwards.
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#35
Crazy4Godword,

Wonderful answer!!!!!!!!
There are truely smart young people here. I will have to remember that answer.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
#36
Genesis 1 is the chronological account of the creation.

Genesis 2 is an explanation of particular points the reader was to understand:
1) What was written in chapter one is the history of God creating heaven and earth
2) These things were created before anything ever grew
3) It had never rained
4) There was no man in existence before the creation
5) Detail of the creation of Adam
6) Detail of the garden of Eden
7) Detail of Adam in the garden and the forming of Eve

Gen 2 is not a 2nd chronological account of creation, but a telling of particular specifics the Lord wanted us to know.
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#37
Crazy4Godword,

Wonderful answer!!!!!!!!
There are truely smart young people here. I will have to remember that answer.
kewl ty VRJ, hope o helped :)
 
D

DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#38
Greetings Loloy,

This is a very good question that, as an old-Earther I love answering. I think your question is pertinent and so far, no one had really given you an answer as to how there could be plant life before the creation of the Sun. I will answer your questions for you Amen. What you have to keep in mind is that the first creation account is told from the perspective of someone ON the Earth, 1st person. In the 1st creation account you have:

1st Day/period of time= you have God creating Universe and everything in it (Sun, Moon, Stars etc.). Then God sets in motion the Earth (Earth's rotation). This creates the separation of light and darkness. Remember the Earth, early in it's history was shrouded with a dense atmosphere. The atmosphere was translucent. Science also evidences this.

2nd Day/period of time= God creates/organizes a stable water cycle on the Earth preparing it for life. Keep in mind there is a tremendous amount of h20 on the Earth at this time. Water also covered what we now know as continents also. Science also evidences this. Bear in mind that during the Earth's early history it was also being bombarded with numerous asteroids and comets.

3rd Day/period of time= You have God slowly transforming the Earth into a habitable planet by using plate-tectonics to establish continent/'s, and seas. During this period of time vegetation was commanded to grow.

4th Day/period of time= This is not the creation of the Sun, Moon, Stars etc. out of nothing (Hebrew Bara) this is the beginning of the Sun, Moon, Stars becoming distinctly visible (Hebrew Hayah) "let there be". The Earth's atmosphere is transformed from being translucent to transparent which is needed for intelligent life to survive on the planet. Intelligent life needs to visibly see these objects to regulate their natural biological clocks. Before this time the Earth's atmosphere was similar to an overcast day. "And GOD made" (Hebrew asah) meaning allowed to become visible. Why? so they can be "for signs and seasons"!

5th Day/period of time= GOD creates swarms of living creatures are created in the waters, as well as birds. Also evidenced by Scientific observations as being historically accurate.

6th Day/period of time= GOD creates living creatures/land animals. Also Man (including Eve lol). Gives Man (including Eve lol) dominion over Earth. Day/Age closes.

7th Day/period of time= GOD resting, metaphorically speaking. He is resting from creating any new creations i.e. we no longer see any completely new species popping on the scene out of nowhere, only a progression towards decay, death, and extinction.

The second creation account is based on Man (Including Eve) but no contradiction with the first creation account. It is a complimentary account of the 6th day that zooms in on the creation of Adam and Eve, there should also be no period at the end of 2:4, there should be a comma there. There could not be the creation of the Sun (Hebrew bara) on the 4th day because without the Sun the Earth would only be 3 degrees above absolute zero and plant life would not last seconds, let alone 24 hours. The Sun was created "in the beginning". I interpret Genesis literally, in the sense of the "Days" being long but finite periods of time which is well within the scope of what the Hebrew word "yome" allows for. Also, Science demonstrates that this would be the most accurate interpretation considering GOD made nature as well as special revelation and therefore they both should not conflict, but agree.

I hope in some small way this helps. May the LORD continually sanctify you day, by day. A laborer in Christ Jesus.

DiscipleWilliam
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#39
Greetings Loloy,

This is a very good question that, as an old-Earther I love answering. I think your question is pertinent and so far, no one had really given you an answer as to how there could be plant life before the creation of the Sun. I will answer your questions for you Amen. What you have to keep in mind is that the first creation account is told from the perspective of someone ON the Earth, 1st person. In the 1st creation account you have:

1st Day/period of time= you have God creating Universe and everything in it (Sun, Moon, Stars etc.). Then God sets in motion the Earth (Earth's rotation). This creates the separation of light and darkness. Remember the Earth, early in it's history was shrouded with a dense atmosphere. The atmosphere was translucent. Science also evidences this.

2nd Day/period of time= God creates/organizes a stable water cycle on the Earth preparing it for life. Keep in mind there is a tremendous amount of h20 on the Earth at this time. Water also covered what we now know as continents also. Science also evidences this. Bear in mind that during the Earth's early history it was also being bombarded with numerous asteroids and comets.

3rd Day/period of time= You have God slowly transforming the Earth into a habitable planet by using plate-tectonics to establish continent/'s, and seas. During this period of time vegetation was commanded to grow.

4th Day/period of time= This is not the creation of the Sun, Moon, Stars etc. out of nothing (Hebrew Bara) this is the beginning of the Sun, Moon, Stars becoming distinctly visible (Hebrew Hayah) "let there be". The Earth's atmosphere is transformed from being translucent to transparent which is needed for intelligent life to survive on the planet. Intelligent life needs to visibly see these objects to regulate their natural biological clocks. Before this time the Earth's atmosphere was similar to an overcast day. "And GOD made" (Hebrew asah) meaning allowed to become visible. Why? so they can be "for signs and seasons"!

5th Day/period of time= GOD creates swarms of living creatures are created in the waters, as well as birds. Also evidenced by Scientific observations as being historically accurate.

6th Day/period of time= GOD creates living creatures/land animals. Also Man (including Eve lol). Gives Man (including Eve lol) dominion over Earth. Day/Age closes.

7th Day/period of time= GOD resting, metaphorically speaking. He is resting from creating any new creations i.e. we no longer see any completely new species popping on the scene out of nowhere, only a progression towards decay, death, and extinction.

The second creation account is based on Man (Including Eve) but no contradiction with the first creation account. It is a complimentary account of the 6th day that zooms in on the creation of Adam and Eve, there should also be no period at the end of 2:4, there should be a comma there. There could not be the creation of the Sun (Hebrew bara) on the 4th day because without the Sun the Earth would only be 3 degrees above absolute zero and plant life would not last seconds, let alone 24 hours. The Sun was created "in the beginning". I interpret Genesis literally, in the sense of the "Days" being long but finite periods of time which is well within the scope of what the Hebrew word "yome" allows for. Also, Science demonstrates that this would be the most accurate interpretation considering GOD made nature as well as special revelation and therefore they both should not conflict, but agree.

I hope in some small way this helps. May the LORD continually sanctify you day, by day. A laborer in Christ Jesus.

DiscipleWilliam
Hmmmm... I see... tnx for this...

Well another problem yet remain... You said that the 2nd chapter is the detailed narration of the 6th day in the creation account of Chapter1...
see these verse in the 2nd chapter:
2:19 - Now out of the Ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them..

If the 2nd account is the detail of the 6th day of the first account.. Why is it that the birds are included here? while the fact is; birds are created in the fifth day...
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#40
people i think might of got it.......i think i might be thinking on the same page.....

God explains what are to come, and then later He details it even more......kinda like narrator and then the motion pictures afterwards.
The problem:
The narrator explain this :



The motion shows us this: