Contradiction or Not?

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L

Loloy

Guest
#1
#1
I've been reading the bible and almost finish it... but when i look back at the beginning chapters of Genesis.. I found it very confusing...(?)

Ok, here it is... it's all about the creation accounts...

I found out that the 1st and 2nd Chapter of Genesis are two creation accounts..
As I observed the first creation account (Gen. 1:1-31) is a general description of how God created the universe and the earth... The second account is (Gen. 2:4-25) which describe the detailed creation of the earth and the humans..

But each account does not fit into each other... the chronological arrangement of creation has been distorted...
Look at these:
1st account: (Gen. 1:1-31)
1. Light -
2. Sky (atmosphere)
3. Dry Ground - Vegetation
4. Sun, Moon, Stars
5. Birds and Fishes
6. Beast and Man (male and female)
7. God rested

2nd Account:(Gen2:4-25)
1. Earth
2. Bodies of water
3. Man
4. Vegetation
5. Beast - birds, fishes and all kinds of animals
6. Woman

The order of first account is entirely different from the second one... The fist account it says Man (Male and Female) are made at the same day and the last creation of all creations, before God rested.. While the second account it says Woman is the last creation after the animals and vegetation.. And the Adam (male) is created before the vegetations and the beast... (???)

How come?...

And the first account also is a questionable one... If God created the vegies before the Sun... How can plant's survive without the Sun?

Can somebody have a simple explanation for this? because i tried to question one of our theologians for this confusing order of creation accounts.. and i'm not yet satisfied for His answers...
Help please... i need some answers...
 
F

francina

Guest
#2
#2
God speaks things into being before they are tangible. Example, Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the beginning of the world. That is my explanation mainly for man, earth & water was not created in the second chapter, nor animals, but the Garden of Eden. Another thing, man is spirit, not flesh, we live in flesh on the earth. I do believe that in Genesis 1, spirit man was created from God, & in 2 was given bodies from the earth was formed & 'man became a living soul'. The rivers was already there, the vegetation was there but it says they had not grown yet. So in Genesis 2 things became tangible, so to speak.
 
F

francina

Guest
#3
#3
By the way, I'm falling behind in my bible reading, I've been on Joshua for weeks now. How far are you?
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#4
#4
If you say that the man and beast were not created in the second account... try reading it again... maybe your wrong...

2:7 - then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

2:18 - 19 - Then the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him. Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them...


by the way i'm on the gospel of Mark now...
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#5
#5
Man is not spirit... man is flesh... and God put the spirit into it... (god breathed into the nostrils of man)...
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#6
#6
It's not a contradiction.

  • Genesis 1
    • Day one - Heavens and earth are created. "Let there be light." Day and Night.
    • Day two - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
    • Day three - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is made.
    • Day four - Sun, moon, stars are made.
    • Day five - Sea life and birds are made.
    • Day six - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and female) are made.
  • Genesis 2
    • States heaven and earth were created. There was no plant yet on earth, no rain yet, and no man. But, a mist rose watering the surface of the ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Finally, God made Eve.
Click to expand...









Don&#039;t Genesis 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click
 
ItinerantLurker

ItinerantLurker

Banned
#7
Apr 17, 2010
205
2
0
#7
There is not actual contradiction because the accounts are not historical narratives - that is, they aren't meant to convey a literal history of creation but instead are putting the act of creation into terms that its original audience could understand.




Lurker
 
P

PBUH

Banned
#8
Jan 24, 2011
273
0
0
#8
ItinerantLurker said:
There is not actual contradiction because the accounts are not historical narratives - that is, they aren't meant to convey a literal history of creation but instead are putting the act of creation into terms that its original audience could understand.




Lurker
Click to expand...
Hi Intinerant Lurker

A contradiction is a contradiction whether it is historical or not.

At what point does the bible flick over to being historical ?
 
ItinerantLurker

ItinerantLurker

Banned
#9
Apr 17, 2010
205
2
0
#9
PBUH said:
A contradiction is a contradiction whether it is historical or not.
Click to expand...
To us it may certainly seem that way, but ancient near eastern culture did not always view or write historical accounts linearly. Be careful about imposing our more or less westernized 21st century views onto ANE writers and audiences.

At what point does the bible flick over to being historical ?
Click to expand...
Depends upon the book, the Bible isn't a linearly written narrative - it is a collection of very very different books with different styles, genres, and authors.




Lurker
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#10
#10
There is not actual contradiction because the accounts are not historical narratives - that is, they aren't meant to convey a literal history of creation but instead are putting the act of creation into terms that its original audience could understand.

Lurker
Click to expand...
Which parts of creation as it actually occurred could not have been understood by its original audience?

Depends upon the book, the Bible isn't a linearly written narrative - it is a collection of very very different books with different styles, genres, and authors.
Click to expand...
What is an example of a book in Scripture you consider to be historical and then what are the qualities of that book that tell us that it is historical as opposed to Genesis?
 
ItinerantLurker

ItinerantLurker

Banned
#11
Apr 17, 2010
205
2
0
#11
Credo_ut_Intelligam said:
Which parts of creation as it actually occurred could not have been understood by its original audience?
Click to expand...
Gravity, conservation of angular momentum, nuclear reactions, plate tectonics, genetics, evolution; take your pick.

What is an example of a book in Scripture you consider to be historical and then what are the qualities of that book that tell us that it is historical as opposed to Genesis?
Click to expand...
To what end? The creation account is noted as distinct from all other books of the Bible by biblical scholars of virtually every opinion. It can be interpreted literally, and it can be interpreted as more symbolic/allegorical - but only one of these interpretations has the benefit of not contradicting what we observe about how the universe works.




Lurker
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#12
#12
Gravity, conservation of angular momentum, nuclear reactions, plate tectonics, genetics, evolution; take your pick.
Click to expand...
Oh boy, I love options. How about I pick something like long periods of time and evolution. Could they have understood that?

To what end? The creation account is noted as distinct from all other books of the Bible by biblical scholars of virtually every opinion.
Click to expand...
Distinct in what sense? Distinct in genre? Hardly...

It can be interpreted literally, and it can be interpreted as more symbolic/allegorical - but only one of these interpretations has the benefit of not contradicting what we observe about how the universe works.
Click to expand...
I want to test your method. I can interpret the Jesus narrative literally or more symbolic/allegorical... A more symbolic/allegorical (not the same thing from a hermeneutic standpoint, but I'll play along for fun) has the benefit of not contradicting what we observe about how the universe works (walking on water, multiplying food, rising from the dead, etc.)

So, Jesus... make believe story for good moral lesson or historical figure?
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#13
#13
PBUH said:
Hi Intinerant Lurker

A contradiction is a contradiction whether it is historical or not.
Click to expand...
PBUH said:


At what point does the bible flick over to being historical ?
Click to expand...


A contradiction is in the mind of the contradictor. The Bible can't contradict itself, because it comes from God, and God can't contradict Himself. Men come, in unbelief, and speak against the Bible. But they're fallible, because they are only men, and many times, this means they have no idea whatsoever what they are saying. Thus, Christ could pray, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." In Erie/ Scott
 
F

francina

Guest
#14
#14
& that is why you are confused. Man is a spiritual being created from God. Let us make man in our own image & our likeness. That is why we could be in Christ & He in us. What about the statement by Paul about being absent from the body. How do you think we could be absent from the body, how do you think we could be 'clothed' in new bodies? Who do you think was in hell & who was in the bosom of Abraham in the account of the beggar Lazarus & the rich man. You do not understand the difference between natural & spiritual beings. Angels are spirits & the bible says we will be like the angels in the resurrection & there will be no more marriage. We are spirit beings, we live in a body , we have a soul.
created & formed are two different words, when the bible uses different words it is usually for a reason. Formed has to do with outward body. Man became a living soul, one that could now interact with this temporary environment we live in. What do you think Paul means when he talks about the 'outer man' vs the 'inner man'?
Did you go straight through the old or are you going back & forth? I'm on Joshua in the Old & Mark in the New. When did you start?
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#15
#15
francina said:
& that is why you are confused. Man is a spiritual being created from God. Let us make man in our own image & our likeness. That is why we could be in Christ & He in us. What about the statement by Paul about being absent from the body. How do you think we could be absent from the body, how do you think we could be 'clothed' in new bodies? Who do you think was in hell & who was in the bosom of Abraham in the account of the beggar Lazarus & the rich man. You do not understand the difference between natural & spiritual beings. Angels are spirits & the bible says we will be like the angels in the resurrection & there will be no more marriage. We are spirit beings, we live in a body , we have a soul.
created & formed are two different words, when the bible uses different words it is usually for a reason. Formed has to do with outward body. Man became a living soul, one that could now interact with this temporary environment we live in. What do you think Paul means when he talks about the 'outer man' vs the 'inner man'?
Did you go straight through the old or are you going back & forth? I'm on Joshua in the Old & Mark in the New. When did you start?
Click to expand...
I do understand your point... yes we are spiritual being in a body of flesh...

But my point here in making this thread is... About the Chronological order of two Creation Accounts... If you compare this two accounts, it's in total contradiction... in terms of its order...

Some may say its symbolical... But if you study it's figure, it is a narrative of the creation... The first account is in general description of the creation of the Universe to man... And the Second Account is the detailed one From Earth to Woman...

Please try to observe it carefully the difference of two...

By the ways I started last year... Second sem... There may be times that i have skipped...
 
ItinerantLurker

ItinerantLurker

Banned
#16
Apr 17, 2010
205
2
0
#16
Credo_ut_Intelligam said:
Oh boy, I love options. How about I pick something like long periods of time and evolution. Could they have understood that?
Click to expand...
I highly doubt it given the complete lack of any frame of reference.

Distinct in what sense? Distinct in genre? Hardly...
Click to expand...
In the sense that it does not fall easily into any one genre.

I want to test your method. I can interpret the Jesus narrative literally or more symbolic/allegorical... A more symbolic/allegorical (not the same thing from a hermeneutic standpoint, but I'll play along for fun) has the benefit of not contradicting what we observe about how the universe works (walking on water, multiplying food, rising from the dead, etc.)
Click to expand...
You are missing my meaning - it's not that the Creation account taken literally includes miracles, it's that the Creation account taken literally directly contradicts the evidence we have. Even miracles leave evidence behind - when Christ healed the blind the result was a man who could now see, when He rose from the dead there was an empty tomb - can you find an example of a miracle which leaves deceitful evidence behind which indicates that it never happened? Because that's what would have to have happened for the Creation account to be literal - a series of miracles that made it look like no miracles occurred.




Lurker
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#17
#17
Loloy said:
How come?...

And the first account also is a questionable one... If God created the vegies before the Sun... How can plant's survive without the Sun?

Can somebody have a simple explanation for this? because i tried to question one of our theologians for this confusing order of creation accounts.. and i'm not yet satisfied for His answers...
Help please... i need some answers...
Click to expand...

jeremiah 32:27“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?
hope this answers it for you
 
V

VRJ

Guest
#18
#18
Loloy,
When someone builds a house they first must put forth a set of house plans. After the house plans are made then the contractors come in and build the house.

Genesis chapter one are God's house plans.
Genesis chapter two is the building of the house in action.

You are a very wise person to have caught on to this difference. Not many do.
God Bless your walk
 
W

wakeup

Banned
#19
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
#19
Loloy said:
I've been reading the bible and almost finish it... but when i look back at the beginning chapters of Genesis.. I found it very confusing...(?)

Ok, here it is... it's all about the creation accounts...

I found out that the 1st and 2nd Chapter of Genesis are two creation accounts..
As I observed the first creation account (Gen. 1:1-31) is a general description of how God created the universe and the earth... The second account is (Gen. 2:4-25) which describe the detailed creation of the earth and the humans..

But each account does not fit into each other... the chronological arrangement of creation has been distorted...
Look at these:
1st account: (Gen. 1:1-31)
1. Light -
2. Sky (atmosphere)
3. Dry Ground - Vegetation
4. Sun, Moon, Stars
5. Birds and Fishes
6. Beast and Man (male and female)
7. God rested

2nd Account:(Gen2:4-25)
1. Earth
2. Bodies of water
3. Man
4. Vegetation
5. Beast - birds, fishes and all kinds of animals
6. Woman

The order of first account is entirely different from the second one... The fist account it says Man (Male and Female) are made at the same day and the last creation of all creations, before God rested.. While the second account it says Woman is the last creation after the animals and vegetation.. And the Adam (male) is created before the vegetations and the beast... (???)

How come?...

And the first account also is a questionable one... If God created the vegies before the Sun... How can plant's survive without the Sun?

Can somebody have a simple explanation for this? because i tried to question one of our theologians for this confusing order of creation accounts.. and i'm not yet satisfied for His answers...
Help please... i need some answers...
Click to expand...
sometimes it mentions the overall account, and sometimes in detail.

''wakeup.''
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#20
#20
VRJ said:
Loloy,
When someone builds a house they first must put forth a set of house plans. After the house plans are made then the contractors come in and build the house.

Genesis chapter one are God's house plans.
Genesis chapter two is the building of the house in action.

You are a very wise person to have caught on to this difference. Not many do.
God Bless your walk
Click to expand...
That's not quiet right... If you read chapter 1... you will see God executed his command... when He says light... then light appears....
 
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