correct my summary

[phil36]

You make an assumption from a verse of scripture, and this is much more dangerous than what I purpose. No where in the quoted verse does the writer state that the scripture is the standard by which we should judge all truth. Profitable is to mean that it is good to use. You make scripture to say what it does not say. Jesus said that when He, the Spirit of truth is come, that He would guide us into all the truth. So, somehow you have a problem with scripture, in that you make one verse to contradict what Jesus says.

Hi VW

Once again thanks for your reply. As you are fully aware, we had a similar discussion many moths ago.

I cannot believe that you do not believe that Scripture is the standard of truth, now you just use one word from the text to make your wild claims that you get revelations. so lets have a look at this verse together again, sorry 2 verses:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (English Standard Version)

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

I have underlined the places you have missed, I would say this pretty well sums up the premacy of Scripture in the ''man of Gods' life, would'nt.

Now else are we to discern who come out with wild revealtions.. and just say the spirit told them??

Thank you for your time VW

Phil

 

[VW]

HI VW,


Thank you for your reply, but could you be so kind as to read my post above, answering both you and LBG on this very subject, this will help keep you on top of what is being said thank you.


Now VW, you have side stepped my direct answer to your post? would you care to elaborate.

Thank you

Phil

Actually, I am tried of answering you. So instead, I am pointing out the fallacies of what you say, and the results of following your doctrine. I am of the opinion that answering you is not fruitful. I believe that what you say is wrong, and I don't wish to confront you and tell you that you are wrong. However, by your own reasoning, I must refute what you say, being compelled by the Spirit to make response and show the truth of the love of God.

 

[VW]

Hi VW

Once again thanks for your reply. As you are fully aware, we had a similar discussion many moths ago.

I cannot believe that you do not believe that Scripture is the standard of truth, now you just use one word from the text to make your wild claims that you get revelations. so lets have a look at this verse together again, sorry 2 verses:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (English Standard Version)

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

I have underlined the places you have missed, I would say this pretty well sums up the premacy of Scripture in the ''man of Gods' life, would'nt.

Now else are we to discern who come out with wild revealtions.. and just say the spirit told them??

Thank you for your time VW

Phil

Nowhere does it say that it is the standard of truth. That is only an assumption, one which has existed for a long time. Do you know why the church wanted to keep the people from reading scripture? Because when one reads seeking to learn from God, then God does an amazing thing, He gives them the Spirit to teach them the truth. This the religious leaders could not have, because then they would be threatened in their places of power, which they held by lying to the people about what God wants from them. To depend on what leaders teach, to only have the truth that they say, is the same thing in effect and result.

The scripture is true, because it is from God. What another says that the scripture says in not necessarily true, only if the Spirit witnesses to it. Again, reliance on God, not on man.

 

[phil36]

Nowhere does it say that it is the standard of truth. That is only an assumption, one which has existed for a long time. Do you know why the church wanted to keep the people from reading scripture? Because when one reads seeking to learn from God, then God does an amazing thing, He gives them the Spirit to teach them the truth. This the religious leaders could not have, because then they would be threatened in their places of power, which they held by lying to the people about what God wants from them. To depend on what leaders teach, to only have the truth that they say, is the same thing in effect and result.

The scripture is true, because it is from God. What another says that the scripture says in not necessarily true, only if the Spirit witnesses to it. Again, reliance on God, not on man.

Hi Vic,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree we don't depend on mans teaching. And it is very true the Chruch in the middle ages where against the 'ordinary man' from reading scripture on his own. However, Scripture is the 'Living word of God' breathed out inspired by God, so that we would know the Truth. Yes you are also correct that the Holy Spirit in us reveals the truth in 'Scripture' for He himself inspired its writers.

Now, You are using segments of church history to try and show that Pastors are wrong and there is no need for them, to be honest and frank that is shocking Vic, of course, it may be a way of appeasing a skewed view of church.

I have certainly realised in the last couple of days why we need faithful preachers who preach and teach the truth of Scripture week in week out. and just because there are wolves in sheeps clothing, that should not put you of finding a good bible believing church.

We rely on God not man you are also correct, but your use of that clause to put peope of from learning scripture being taught scripture. I can understand where you are coming from.

But don't you rely on man, if you just hear a voice. as you say you dont see scripture as the standard of truth! you are a fallen creature like the rest of us.. are you sure what you hear is truth??? We trust on our pastors to teach the truth to the best of their God given ability, However, we do rely on God to give them wisdom and knowledge to teach GODS WORD! we also do our own study of scripture, this the Holy spirit will guide us, but we do not rely on our own fallen natures Vic.. do you?

Anyhow, it has not been easy reply to you all while at work the last few days. very hard to give al my concentration, but hopefully when I am off, I will give you a good further reply.

Thank you

Blessings

Phil

 

[VW]

Hi Vic,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree we don't depend on mans teaching. And it is very true the Chruch in the middle ages where against the 'ordinary man' from reading scripture on his own. However, Scripture is the 'Living word of God' breathed out inspired by God, so that we would know the Truth. Yes you are also correct that the Holy Spirit in us reveals the truth in 'Scripture' for He himself inspired its writers.

Now, You are using segments of church history to try and show that Pastors are wrong and there is no need for them, to be honest and frank that is shocking Vic, of course, it may be a way of appeasing a skewed view of church.

I have certainly realised in the last couple of days why we need faithful preachers who preach and teach the truth of Scripture week in week out. and just because there are wolves in sheeps clothing, that should not put you of finding a good bible believing church.

We rely on God not man you are also correct, but your use of that clause to put peope of from learning scripture being taught scripture. I can understand where you are coming from.

But don't you rely on man, if you just hear a voice. as you say you dont see scripture as the standard of truth! you are a fallen creature like the rest of us.. are you sure what you hear is truth??? We trust on our pastors to teach the truth to the best of their God given ability, However, we do rely on God to give them wisdom and knowledge to teach GODS WORD! we also do our own study of scripture, this the Holy spirit will guide us, but we do not rely on our own fallen natures Vic.. do you?

Anyhow, it has not been easy reply to you all while at work the last few days. very hard to give al my concentration, but hopefully when I am off, I will give you a good further reply.

Thank you

Blessings

Phil

You do have this propensity to take what one says and apply your own interpretation to it. I never said that pastors are wrong. Where did I say that pastors are not needed? Please show me so I can recant of that baseless statement. What I see here is that we both are replying according to our thoughts of what is truth. And unfortunately, they are not in agreement.

I despise my fallen nature, hate my life in this world, and trust very little if any of what I deduce on my own with my intelligence. I trust the Holy Spirit implicitly, completely, in every way and thought and word and action. He is God in me, and in you, and in every other child of God. (Actually, this is the point I am trying to get across to you, that it is wrong if not evil to call a child of God a heretic. The subject of the last few days of posts in this thread.) Please do not put words in my mouth anymore. It serves no one well.

And blessings to you in His knowledge and love,
vic

 

[phil36]

You do have this propensity to take what one says and apply your own interpretation to it. I never said that pastors are wrong. Where did I say that pastors are not needed? Please show me so I can recant of that baseless statement. What I see here is that we both are replying according to our thoughts of what is truth. And unfortunately, they are not in agreement.

I despise my fallen nature, hate my life in this world, and trust very little if any of what I deduce on my own with my intelligence. I trust the Holy Spirit implicitly, completely, in every way and thought and word and action. He is God in me, and in you, and in every other child of God. (Actually, this is the point I am trying to get across to you, that it is wrong if not evil to call a child of God a heretic. The subject of the last few days of posts in this thread.) Please do not put words in my mouth anymore. It serves no one well.

And blessings to you in His knowledge and love,
vic

If I smoke.. what would you call me? a smoker wouldnt you?

If I willfully follow heresy, knowing all the facts, what would I be?

Anyhow Vic, I have exlained that I know new seekers/believers won't know all the truth, but enough to save. Unfortunatly as we I have witnessed there are belivers who have been believers for 20, 30 ,40 years who only still know enough to save them?

Anyhow Vic,

I love you like a brother, Keep being blessed

Phil

 

[VW]

If I smoke.. what would you call me? a smoker wouldnt you?

If I willfully follow heresy, knowing all the facts, what would I be?

Anyhow Vic, I have exlained that I know new seekers/believers won't know all the truth, but enough to save. Unfortunatly as we I have witnessed there are belivers who have been believers for 20, 30 ,40 years who only still know enough to save them?

Anyhow Vic,

I love you like a brother, Keep being blessed

Phil

Thanks, I love you too.

A small point about believers who are still like little children. If we taught them to fellowship with God and to learn from the Holy Spirit, rather than being spoon feed like children, then maybe they would grow in Christ. John described 3 stages of christian growth, little children, (they know that their sins are forgiven for His name's sake,) young men, (who have the word of God living in them and have defeated the evil one,) and fathers, (who know Him who is from the beginning.) The word lives in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. And we come to know God by being in fellowship with Him, often. This process is how I came to know the trinity personally.

Just a small thought.

In His love,
vic

 

[livingbygrace]

You can see my answers in Blue above, Here I will answer your last statement.

If you read my post to VW, you will have recognised that I know full well that new converts and those young in the Faith (not age) will not fully understand the vastness and depths of our Almighty God, in fact no one really can fathom this no matter how long in the walk!

It is the duty of those who are longer in the Faith to nourish those younger and feed them pure food. so I hope that ansers your question, I am fully aware those young in the Faith will take small steps at time leading to long strides.

Unfortunatly, because of bad teaching or just plain biblical illiteracy, some remain in those baby steps and do not progress, which is really sad for they miss out on a lot with their relationship with God. Some may have been christians for 20,30,40 years and never progressed much from the time they were saved.

So you do not have to be the knight in whitye shining armour for new converts, for the debate I was having was with those have have professed Faith for many many many many years.

There are things that are central to True Christian belief, I am sure you know what these are if not you can ask a Pastor or someone who knows.

Maybe unknown to you, you are refuting a foundational truth, I mean the Trinity. For this is what you refute. I am not sure if it is because of how far you have reached in your walk or wether you do know what the Trinity is and reject it.

Blessings

Phil

So do you believe then that someone can be a Christian without having the foundational belief as you call it of Christianity? I certainly don't and I doubt anyone else does on this website either

So what is according to the Bible the foundational belioef?

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

If you are right why does that verse not say. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is God Himsefl God lives in him and he in Godf?

So you obviously believe in a Bible where the plainest of statements concerning the basis of the Christian faith cannot be relied on.

For God so lloved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John3:16

For my Father's will is that anyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. John6:40

I would prefer to be an immature Christian who believed the plainest of statements concerning the Christian faith than somene who considered themselves mature but would not accept them.

Jesus said his Father was the one true God, therefore you must believe Jesus is the Father if you accept Jesus words. But do you accept his words? Obviuously not.

Paul said clearly that Jesus was not God Himself. So you refuse to accept, the Father, Son, Apostle Paul and John.

And what does it say for an internatilonally renowned minister if you are right?

But scripturally you can only hold to your view by ignoring plain, emphatic statements in the Bible directly relating to this subject.

You can show me no plain direct literal scripture that says Jesus is the one true God. I can show you such plain scripture that says this is not the case.

So basically if someone believes the plain, emphatic, literal words of the Bible they are not believing in the foundational truth of the Christian faith. If that were true it would not say much for the Bible would it?

Maybe you can answer this? By acknowledging and agreeing with a post of AOK I take it you believe that in the ontological Trinity the Son cannot be subject to the Father but in the economic Trinity he always was and is now subject to the Father.
Paul says when all dominion, authority, and power has been defeated Christ will become subject to the Father. Paul cannot be speaking of the economic Trinity here, you believe Christ has always been subject to the Father in this and always will be .So in what sense will Christ in the future become subject to the Father?


.

I find it interesting that though many others agree with you that Jesus is God Himself I have not personally that I recall been continiuously told by them on this website I am a heretic. Why is that? Do they not have the truth you have? Are they lacking in their Christian duty unlike you? Or could there be another reason.

I do not profess to be a wonderfully mature Christian who has all the answers. But I do profess to stand on the plain emphatic, literal statements that I have quoted in this debate. I am sorry maybe I should not say this. But you have come accross to me and I am sure othjers in a mocking, deriosory way with some arrogance in your tone. That is not a sign of mature Chreistianity. Maybe that is why you out of all the people I have discussed this with have sidestepped and not even tried to answer so much of the scripture I have placed before you, or maybe it was just because it was plain, literal words of the Bible.

Mnay others on this website believe that Jesus is God Himself, I have not believed of them what I believed of your manner here.

I am away for a while so cannot reply to posts that often, but as you don't accept the plain words of the Bible and call people heretics who do I admit it does not say much for me either spending time debating with you.

 

[mickeyroo]

Elohim(sometimes EL OR ELA)english form *GOD* the firts of the three primary names of deity.is a uni-plural noun formed from EL=strength.or the strong one.and ALAH/TO swear.to bind oneself by an oath.so implying faithfulness.this uni-plurality implied in the name is dhrectly asserted in GENESIS 1V26(PLURALITY)27(unity):see also genesis 3v22.thus the trinity is latent in elohim. as meaning primarily the strong one it is used in chapter 1.Genesis1v1 in the beginning GOD.chapter 2. The SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP.JOHN 1V1 and heb 1v5-13

 

[Red33]

The Holy Spirit is bound to the truth and does not operate or reveal anything outside the truth because he is the Spirit of truth (Jn 15:26,16:15). There is no law against the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:23) because the fruit of the Spirit is according to truth (Eph 5:9). We don't obey the Spirit according to truth but we obey the truth according to the Spirit that guides and reveals it to us (1Pt 1:22, Jn 16:13). All truth comes from the word and there is no truth outside the word (Jn 1:14, 17:17, 2Cor 6:7, Eph 1:13, Col 1:5, 1Thes 2:13, 2Tim 2:15, Jm 1:18). The scriptures that we have been given contain all truth and the Spirit adds nothing to it and can take nothing away from it. If we add or take something away from the truth we are trying to break the truth and the truth of the scriptures can not be broken (Jn 10:35). If we say we have received something from the Spirit that adds or takes away from the word, then it is not the truth and the Spirit never gave it to us. There are others sources it came from but not from the Holy Spirit of God. There in one clear example of adding and taking away from the truth and it is located in Gen 3:3-5;

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (the serpent took away something bad)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (the serpent added something good)

I think we know where that source came from and what is was designed to do with the first woman and man that God had created. Chew on this: 'Iniquity is the activity of rebellion that goes against the authority of truth by adding to the truth and taking away from the truth. When that has been achieved in the heart of man, then man has been beguiled away from the truth and lives in the knowledge of good and evil and calls it God'.

Every single strategy, device, word and doctrine that is expressed by the devil, comes from the iniquity that was found in him and has no truth in it no matter how much it sounds lke the scriptures. Iniquity will always try to nullify the authority of God in a situation and hinder the work of God in a local church. This is why the message that comes from God is criticized and challenged. Somebody always wants to add something to it (challenge) or take away from it (criticize). These are common place in local churches that are on fire for God and living in the will of God through the filling of the Spirit. Anytime that you hear of a ministry that is being slandered and maligned, even by its own people, you can be sure that the word is being preached in the power of the Spirit and they are taking up their cross and following Christ.

 

[phil36]

Hi red,

This is very true, when a church is on fire with the power of the Holy Spirit the devil will surely be standing around with a bucket of water to try and distinguish it. Unfortunatly, as we seen in a poll on here a few months back and especially a couple on here debating do not go to church

Good post.

 

[phil36]

So do you believe then that someone can be a Christian without having the foundational belief as you call it of Christianity? I certainly don't and I doubt anyone else does on this website either

So what is according to the Bible the foundational belioef?

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

If you are right why does that verse not say. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is God Himsefl God lives in him and he in Godf?

So you obviously believe in a Bible where the plainest of statements concerning the basis of the Christian faith cannot be relied on.

For God so lloved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John3:16

For my Father's will is that anyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. John6:40

I would prefer to be an immature Christian who believed the plainest of statements concerning the Christian faith than somene who considered themselves mature but would not accept them.

Jesus said his Father was the one true God, therefore you must believe Jesus is the Father if you accept Jesus words. But do you accept his words? Obviuously not.

Paul said clearly that Jesus was not God Himself. So you refuse to accept, the Father, Son, Apostle Paul and John.

And what does it say for an internatilonally renowned minister if you are right?

But scripturally you can only hold to your view by ignoring plain, emphatic statements in the Bible directly relating to this subject.

You can show me no plain direct literal scripture that says Jesus is the one true God. I can show you such plain scripture that says this is not the case.

So basically if someone believes the plain, emphatic, literal words of the Bible they are not believing in the foundational truth of the Christian faith. If that were true it would not say much for the Bible would it?

Maybe you can answer this? By acknowledging and agreeing with a post of AOK I take it you believe that in the ontological Trinity the Son cannot be subject to the Father but in the economic Trinity he always was and is now subject to the Father.
Paul says when all dominion, authority, and power has been defeated Christ will become subject to the Father. Paul cannot be speaking of the economic Trinity here, you believe Christ has always been subject to the Father in this and always will be .So in what sense will Christ in the future become subject to the Father?


.

I find it interesting that though many others agree with you that Jesus is God Himself I have not personally that I recall been continiuously told by them on this website I am a heretic. Why is that? Do they not have the truth you have? Are they lacking in their Christian duty unlike you? Or could there be another reason.

I do not profess to be a wonderfully mature Christian who has all the answers. But I do profess to stand on the plain emphatic, literal statements that I have quoted in this debate. I am sorry maybe I should not say this. But you have come accross to me and I am sure othjers in a mocking, deriosory way with some arrogance in your tone. That is not a sign of mature Chreistianity. Maybe that is why you out of all the people I have discussed this with have sidestepped and not even tried to answer so much of the scripture I have placed before you, or maybe it was just because it was plain, literal words of the Bible.

Mnay others on this website believe that Jesus is God Himself, I have not believed of them what I believed of your manner here.

I am away for a while so cannot reply to posts that often, but as you don't accept the plain words of the Bible and call people heretics who do I admit it does not say much for me either spending time debating with you.

Hi LBG,

I dont think there is any need to try and drum up support from fellow users of the board, if they wanted to side with you they will. secondly as me and VW where discussing, when someone new, I mean a new convert or someone not long in the Faith comes to God, they will not know everything and neither do they need to know, I certainly don't and we can all agree that we never will know the full depths of God, and God's love. unfortunatly some people remain on milk rather than moving onto solid food.

I think by and large a good lot of people just arent sure all about the trinity, and how it is foundational, that is not to say they are not saved. however, if you do know about the doctrine of the trinity and wilfully teach against it, well that is a different story altogether! However it still may be the case of some might just be confused, or have been lead into a false teaching, I am not saying they are not saved either!

I will leave you with a question LBG:

If Oneness doctrine (or Modalism) is the so-called doctrine of the apostles, then, why was it universally condemned as *heretical* by the early church Fathers (some of who were disciples of the original apostles) and condemned by all the important church councils and creeds?

 

[Consumed]

Hi red,

This is very true, when a church is on fire with the power of the Holy Spirit the devil will surely be standing around with a bucket of water to try and distinguish it. Unfortunatly, as we seen in a poll on here a few months back and especially a couple on here debating do not go to church

Good post.

remember elijah, he even told them to pour water over the alter and fill the trench around it, it made no difference, Fire of God still fell and consumed it all - hallelujah

 

[phil36]

remember elijah, he even told them to pour water over the alter and fill the trench around it, it made no difference, Fire of God still fell and consumed it all - hallelujah

Good scripture reference consumed, it matched my sentiment

Blessings

Phil

 

[livingbygrace]

Hi LBG,

I dont think there is any need to try and drum up support from fellow users of the board, if they wanted to side with you they will. secondly as me and VW where discussing, when someone new, I mean a new convert or someone not long in the Faith comes to God, they will not know everything and neither do they need to know, I certainly don't and we can all agree that we never will know the full depths of God, and God's love. unfortunatly some people remain on milk rather than moving onto solid food.

I think by and large a good lot of people just arent sure all about the trinity, and how it is foundational, that is not to say they are not saved. however, if you do know about the doctrine of the trinity and wilfully teach against it, well that is a different story altogether! However it still may be the case of some might just be confused, or have been lead into a false teaching, I am not saying they are not saved either!

I will leave you with a question LBG:

If Oneness doctrine (or Modalism) is the so-called doctrine of the apostles, then, why was it universally condemned as *heretical* by the early church Fathers (some of who were disciples of the original apostles) and condemned by all the important church councils and creeds?

Hi Phil

I certainly am not trying to drum up any support for my opinions. I accept that I am not in the majority with them.

What I genuinely find hard to understand is that you appear to be saying that I can be a Christian with my views(albeit a milk drinker). And yet in your belief I do not accept the foundational belief of Christianity(Christ is God Himself) You also say I am a heretic and commit heresy. I know of no other Christian who would believe that someone they would consdider not to have the foundational truth of the Christian faith and was a heretic could be saved. This does genuinely amaze me. Is this honestly what you believe. Only you have stated that belioeving Jesus is God Himself is the foundational belief of Christianity if I am not mistaken.

You also said that it doesn't say much for an internationally renowned minister if you are right I presume for confirming I am baptised in the Holy Spirit. Leaving aside the disagreement we have on this, there is another possibility I believe.

What is mature Christianity? Is it head theology? Or is it the heart?

To me mature Christianity is not theological head knowledge, but yielding to and being led of the Spirit. What does this produce in us? love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. and on that scale I know I so often fall short.

If head theology was the most important thing in Christianity I am left wondering something. Many Christians in their hearts-even on this website believe they have the theology. Mnay believe they have great theology based on the great theologians and scholars of the Christian faith. But if theology is the most important thing and people have such an abundance of this, why do we not see(or very seldom see) the power we were promised?
Jesus said. You will do greater miracles than I because I go to my Father. The early disciples saw these great miracles, why do we so rarely today? I have been to churches in England who pride themselves on standing on the truth of God's word, but there is no power that Christ spoke of us having, why is this?
Nearly every born again church I have been to in England(and I have been to many) are mainly filled with the more academically gifted half of society, and those who come from the more affluent half of society. Why is this? I have my opinions I wondered what yours were, as you have previously stated you believe this is the case. What of the lame. crushed, blind, downtrodden, oppressed the people Christ was annointed to preach to?

So what has the theology of man so often achieved? A church based on the early church of the New Testament? I would doubt that. Maybe we are often too caught up in head knowledge and the desire for it and to proclaim it while the most important aspect of Christianity becomes a casualty of such an approach.

The heart of the Gospel is love, the doctrine is faith in Christ and a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. But how many truly in their hearts live by that principal today?

I can only repeat. I will always prefer to be called an imature Christian and to accept in childlike faith the simple, plain, direct staements on this subject made by God Himself, Christ, and the Apostle Paul than to be considerd a mature Christian for believing what is considered to be mature doctrine and mature Christianity, but has to cast aside the simple, plain and emphatic statements of those mentioned.
I will always prefer simple, childlike faith to the intellectual philosopher and scholar. Why do people so look to them? Because they believe they are totally led of the Spirit? Or is the main reason because they are considered deep thinkers, and intellectually wise by this worlds standards?

I don't know why you asked me the question concerning 'oneness'. I have not professed to follow that belief as stated on this website