Crossing the Red Sea

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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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good points... I think, or am willing to consider, that using different methods of translating the hebrew numbers could yield a smaller number...

600,000 fighting men makes for some odd situations in other wilderness stories... Israel encounters other wilderness tribes folk... sometimes these folks give the Israelites real military problems...

the Israelites are miraculously supplied by God... the wilderness folks didn't have that... their numbers must have been small, based on what the land could support...

I'm guessing the wilderness peeps could muster maybe a few hundred, or in good circumstances, a few thousand fighters...

600,000 Israelites should have been able to step on them without noticing...
You have to remember that although the Israelite army was numbered at just over 600,000 this does not mean that the entire army was assembled for battle in every encounter. Most often is was only a small contingent that was dispatched to attack a much larger force.
 
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atwhatcost

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When we get done with this discussion on the Red Sea crossing I would really like to discuss the so-called plausible explanations for the miracles of Egypt if you would care to join me in this.
I'd love to. I'm only to Lev. 24 now, so don't remember what I learned in Numbers ages ago. Exodus is closer to the surface in my memories.

At least I know something about Exodus. (I could be wrong. I learned quite a bit I didn't know before like that whole golden calf thing was only the Cecile B. DeMille's version, until I studied it.)
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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If Valiant's assertion is true and "'lph can mean a thousand, a sub-clan, or a chieftain. Thus 600 'lph of men could mean 600 sub-clans. Taking a sub-clan as thirty adult men that would mean 18000 men," then why would this not at least show up in the Jewish translations. One would think they would how to represent their own number sets.
possibly because the later Jewish translators wanted to make the israelites look very fertile...

translators in, say, 200 bce may not know how writers in, say, 1600 bce used the numbers...
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
I would give you a rep on this if I could but I have not spread around enough rep yet.
Not a problem. I haven't quite figured out what reps are yet. I see them. I don't know what they mean other than someone agrees. I keep thinking that's what Likes are for.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Ancient Hebrew only had consonants (well almost). Thus 'lph can be pronounced eleph or ahleph. eleph means 'a thousand, (larger) family/sub-clan'. Ahleph means captain. So 600 eleph could mean six hundred thousand of men or it could mean 600 sub-clans of men. In the latter case the total number would depend on the size of a sub-clan. /QUOTE]


When considering the numeric value of the consonants, 'א' has the numeric value of 1.

'ר' has the value of 200 and 'ת' has the value of 400; so 1,000 would be written as תתר .

The census in Numbers chapter 1 uses the word אֶ֖לֶף , which is the name of the letter 'א' and which, in the context of a census, is always translated as thousand.
I think that's probably the majority, but certainly not only, scholarly opinion...
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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Not a problem. I haven't quite figured out what reps are yet. I see them. I don't know what they mean other than someone agrees. I keep thinking that's what Likes are for.
That is precisely all they mean.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest


So you never watched a sermon or a presentation before that really moved you by the Word of God? You never read an article that did the same? Videos, articles, and other forms of media are just forms of communication. The medium is neither bad nor good in and of itself. Some people can say the same about not learning anything a Christian chat forum, too. But unless one experiences that, then well that is a different story.

Watch it or don't watch it. It is your choice to believe what you will and see what you want to see.
Sure I do. Often, but not before someone I trust tells me it's worth watching. Trust is earned. We haven't gotten there yet. Don't feel insulted. I don't trust easily.

I spent way too much time as a babe in Christ believing everything anyone tells me. I'm no babe. Now I have to rub out bad stuff that stuck in my brain. It's hard work. I avoid adding to stuff I'll have to rub out later. (Same reason I didn't take your suggestion on googling images of Christ.)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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possibly because the later Jewish translators wanted to make the israelites look very fertile...

translators in, say, 200 bce may not know how writers in, say, 1600 bce used the numbers...
The entire body of scholars responsible for English translations have rendered this the same way in every instance, even in the Jewish Bibles I have seen. This is not because the knowledge was supposedly lost in some bygone age. It is because these numbers mean precisely what they say. The Jews certainly know how to translate their own value system of numbers.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest


When I say I don't understand it, I am saying I am not following where he believes the locations are a match in Scripture. Are there like maps? Are there documents? Do people still call those places those places? Is he interpreating the verses correctly and explaining it in a way that follows ..... what exactly? What map? What place that is known in which documents in history that calls it such and such place. See, that is where I am not following what he is saying. I can claim my home town is Egypt. But we both know that is not the case. One has to look for outside evidence to confirm such a thing. See where I am going with this?
Pffft. He showed you a map he likes. That didn't even take effort to understand. It's a picture with a path the Israelites followed that he agrees with.

How is that donut?


BTW, I am seeing the evidence of who you are. You say one thing and contradict yourself shortly afterwards.

Like you don't read the long scholarly stuff because you're simple. And then you just said you didn't even notice he posted a map. That's not scholarly. It's a map!

This is you working your way out of checking out anything OldHermit said. It reminds me of the million and one excuses I gave Mom to not do a chore. You're 42, not 8. You've already admitted to studying stuff you like. Now you're coming up with a million and one reasons you don't believe OldHermit. The truth is I didn't like raking leaves. Never have. Never will. Even bought a house in the city with no trees to avoid just that. For you the truth is you haven't read most of what OldHermit has said or even shown. (A map! This ain't graduate study.) You're stuck with "my way, or no way, but I'll give you plenty of reason that my way is always right and then cloak it in "the Bible says so."

Yeah. Really hasn't worked for me, even when I was 8. You're smart enough to know better too.

If you're not willing to put in any effort, (a map! I can't get past the fact you couldn't even read a map given to answer you -- you didn't have to agree, but at least you should remember he did give one and you read it), go back to posting how you alone are sinless. At least you're willing to put in the effort to keep that topic going.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
good points... I think, or am willing to consider, that using different methods of translating the hebrew numbers could yield a smaller number...

600,000 fighting men makes for some odd situations in other wilderness stories... Israel encounters other wilderness tribes folk... sometimes these folks give the Israelites real military problems...

the Israelites are miraculously supplied by God... the wilderness folks didn't have that... their numbers must have been small, based on what the land could support...

I'm guessing the wilderness peeps could muster maybe a few hundred, or in good circumstances, a few thousand fighters...

600,000 Israelites should have been able to step on them without noticing...
It's wilderness, not dessert. Enough space for all those peoples' sheep and cattle to graze for 40 years, and enough space for those already living their to support themselves. There were plenty of folks already living there.

It's not scriptural, but I imagine them like our self-sustaining folks -- people willing to put in greater effort to live a simpler life than I am. For me, give me indoor plumbing, electricity, a supermarket, a comfortable chair and bed, and an indoor kitchen. I'll live off someone else's effort and pay for the privilege. Those folks already living there wanted to be left alone.

The thing they had against the Israelites was obvious -- their cattle were eating up the food for the inhabitant's cattle. Think bigger. New Yorkers moving in mass to Texas. There's going to be problems. lol
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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Actually, most of the plagues weren't exactly miraculous, except for the timing of God.

The blood in the Nile? Probably a red tide of algae. That killed off the fish. What happens when fish are killed off in a river? They don't eat frog eggs. Next came the frogs. The frogs died off, leaving worse decay than usual. (They were bound to die, but as they were growing into tadpoles they were absorbing that deadly red tide, so it was worse.) What happens if you have wall-to-wall dead frogs? Carrion insects. Next came the flies. What do flies do? Splatter everything they touch with germs, bacteria, and viruses. Thus lesions, open scabs, and your basic ingredients for "pestilent."

They used the words they know. We can look back and see cause and effect. Still, why a red tide at that particular moment? How did each plague come right after Moses told the Pharaoh it's coming? And, to this day, we have no scientific explanation for why all the firstborns--humans and animals--died, except for those who put lambs blood on their door post and ate unleavened bread. The answer comes back to "God," but he didn't have to make miracles nonstop to cause it.
Okay, it looks like things have slowed down in this discussion so let' begin looking at the plagues shall we.
Let us begin with the water into blood.
The Plague of Blood, 14- 25 - Water into blood. Like the staff into the serpent, this miracle defies the laws of physics. Even the natural elements are going to respond to the will of God. In the natural process of physics, water molecules remain water molecules no matter what you do to them. You can turn it into a solid, you can convert it into steam/vapor/gas, and you can return it to its natural liquid state but, in each state, the water molecules still remain two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. They never simply transform into some other substance. Yet, they did! And they did it in a liquid state. When Aaron stretched his staff over the water, all the water of the land became blood.
A. Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicate the miracle. If they can duplicate the miracle, then Pharaoh can simply shrug it off to naturalistic explanations and disregard the power behind Moses demands. And God allow it to be so. What the magicians could not do was turn the blood into water.
B. Naturalistic explanation – Many explanations are offered by commentators attempting to explain the miracle of blood. They try to present each miracle as a chain reaction with each new event being the result of the one that preceded it. This theory was advanced by Greta Hort in the 1958 and this has since come to be known as 'Hort's Chain Reaction'. The “rivers into blood” has been attributed to:
1. A massive infusion of red clay into the Nile causing the river to take on a red color.
2. The presence of red algae in the water.
Neither of these would have killed all the fish nor would it have made the water undrinkable. Questions:
a. Were the people so ignorant that the did not know the difference between red colored muddy water and blood?
b. If the waters has simply become red due to some natural process, then why did the magicians duplicate the event?

C. The magnitude of the miracle
1. All the waters of Egypt
a. The rivers - All seven branches of the Nile that existed at the time.
b. The streams
c. The pools
d. The reservoirs
e. And whatever water was stored in all vessels of both wood and stone. These were for the household use. So, even the water that had been gotten earlier in the day for the daily use of the household was also turned into blood.
2. All the marine life dies, the river became foul and undrinkable. The putrid smell of blood that begins to sour in the sun would have made the land intolerable to live in. In addition to this would have been the smell of the decaying marine life in every river, stream, and pool.

D. The duration of the plague was seven days. The impact upon both the people and the livestock would have been devastating.
 
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Oh I would have to believe the Plagues were ALL LITERAL plagues... bloody water? yes bloody water... etc etc.. the Literal Aspect of the Plagues, if they were something 'natural', maybe something Egypt had experienced before, then the REALITY of the Judgment would not be 'real,' from the Standpoint of God using these to Harden Pharaoh. The Purpose of the Miraculous Plagues or Judgments were to 'harden Pharaoh ' further each time. When He Pours out His Divine Judgment, people either turn back to Him, or they are Hardened Further into sin and rebellion and un belief. just my .02 ------->looking at the Supernatural Judgment or Plagues of God.. here is where I lean ALMOST entirely on the Supernatural Sovereign Hand of God as He deals with man who is in un belief and presumputuousness....(pride)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The entire body of scholars responsible for English translations have rendered this the same way in every instance, even in the Jewish Bibles I have seen. This is not because the knowledge was supposedly lost in some bygone age. It is because these numbers mean precisely what they say. The Jews certainly know how to translate their own value system of numbers.
The Jews knew less about ancient Hebrew than we do. They simply read it in terms of their own day. The translators translate on the same terms. They mainly translate for the ordinary reader. The ancient use of numbers is a complicated subject. It is only gradually being recognised. It will take some time before conclusions are reached that will demonstrate unreservedly HOW numbers should be translated.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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The Jews knew less about ancient Hebrew than we do. They simply read it in terms of their own day. The translators translate on the same terms. They mainly translate for the ordinary reader. The ancient use of numbers is a complicated subject. It is only gradually being recognised. It will take some time before conclusions are reached that will demonstrate unreservedly HOW numbers should be translated.
Nonsense............
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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Oh I would have to believe the Plagues were ALL LITERAL plagues... bloody water? yes bloody water... etc etc.. the Literal Aspect of the Plagues, if they were something 'natural', maybe something Egypt had experienced before, then the REALITY of the Judgment would not be 'real,' from the Standpoint of God using these to Harden Pharaoh. The Purpose of the Miraculous Plagues or Judgments were to 'harden Pharaoh ' further each time. When He Pours out His Divine Judgment, people either turn back to Him, or they are Hardened Further into sin and rebellion and un belief. just my .02 ------->looking at the Supernatural Judgment or Plagues of God.. here is where I lean ALMOST entirely on the Supernatural Sovereign Hand of God as He deals with man who is in un belief and presumputuousness....(pride)
Before the Flood people had experience floods before. It was not the unusualness of flooding but the dimensions of the Flood that made the difference. The Egyptians had experienced most of the plagues before, but not in the intensity with which they came in the time of Moses.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by valiant
The Jews knew less about ancient Hebrew than we do. They simply read it in terms of their own day. The translators translate on the same terms. They mainly translate for the ordinary reader. The ancient use of numbers is a complicated subject. It is only gradually being recognised. It will take some time before conclusions are reached that will demonstrate unreservedly HOW numbers should be translated.


Nonsense............
Or perhaps evidence that you have a closed mind?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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Before the Flood people had experience floods before. It was not the unusualness of flooding but the dimensions of the Flood that made the difference. The Egyptians had experienced most of the plagues before, but not in the intensity with which they came in the time of Moses.
Perhaps you should limit you conversation to things you know something about. You clearly know nothing about this topic.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I have been thumbing through the pages of this thread and my question would be.....What serious spiritual significance is gained from knowing the exact route taken by the Exodus travels.....the bigger picture is what does the wandering represent, what does the delivery from the wilderness represent and why it took a SAVIOR to deliver to the promise land (Joshua) over the LAW and prophets (MOSES and Aaron) which could only take the people so far while POINTING the direction and to the SAVIOR!