Crossing the Red Sea
- Thread starter oldhermit
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
I'd love to. I'm only to Lev. 24 now, so don't remember what I learned in Numbers ages ago. Exodus is closer to the surface in my memories.
At least I know something about Exodus. (I could be wrong. I learned quite a bit I didn't know before like that whole golden calf thing was only the Cecile B. DeMille's version, until I studied it.)
At least I know something about Exodus. (I could be wrong. I learned quite a bit I didn't know before like that whole golden calf thing was only the Cecile B. DeMille's version, until I studied it.)
A
Sure I do. Often, but not before someone I trust tells me it's worth watching. Trust is earned. We haven't gotten there yet. Don't feel insulted. I don't trust easily.
I spent way too much time as a babe in Christ believing everything anyone tells me. I'm no babe. Now I have to rub out bad stuff that stuck in my brain. It's hard work. I avoid adding to stuff I'll have to rub out later. (Same reason I didn't take your suggestion on googling images of Christ.)
I spent way too much time as a babe in Christ believing everything anyone tells me. I'm no babe. Now I have to rub out bad stuff that stuck in my brain. It's hard work. I avoid adding to stuff I'll have to rub out later. (Same reason I didn't take your suggestion on googling images of Christ.)
The entire body of scholars responsible for English translations have rendered this the same way in every instance, even in the Jewish Bibles I have seen. This is not because the knowledge was supposedly lost in some bygone age. It is because these numbers mean precisely what they say. The Jews certainly know how to translate their own value system of numbers.
A
Pffft. He showed you a map he likes. That didn't even take effort to understand. It's a picture with a path the Israelites followed that he agrees with.
How is that donut?
BTW, I am seeing the evidence of who you are. You say one thing and contradict yourself shortly afterwards.
Like you don't read the long scholarly stuff because you're simple. And then you just said you didn't even notice he posted a map. That's not scholarly. It's a map!
This is you working your way out of checking out anything OldHermit said. It reminds me of the million and one excuses I gave Mom to not do a chore. You're 42, not 8. You've already admitted to studying stuff you like. Now you're coming up with a million and one reasons you don't believe OldHermit. The truth is I didn't like raking leaves. Never have. Never will. Even bought a house in the city with no trees to avoid just that. For you the truth is you haven't read most of what OldHermit has said or even shown. (A map! This ain't graduate study.) You're stuck with "my way, or no way, but I'll give you plenty of reason that my way is always right and then cloak it in "the Bible says so."
Yeah. Really hasn't worked for me, even when I was 8. You're smart enough to know better too.
If you're not willing to put in any effort, (a map! I can't get past the fact you couldn't even read a map given to answer you -- you didn't have to agree, but at least you should remember he did give one and you read it), go back to posting how you alone are sinless. At least you're willing to put in the effort to keep that topic going.
How is that donut?
BTW, I am seeing the evidence of who you are. You say one thing and contradict yourself shortly afterwards.
Like you don't read the long scholarly stuff because you're simple. And then you just said you didn't even notice he posted a map. That's not scholarly. It's a map!
This is you working your way out of checking out anything OldHermit said. It reminds me of the million and one excuses I gave Mom to not do a chore. You're 42, not 8. You've already admitted to studying stuff you like. Now you're coming up with a million and one reasons you don't believe OldHermit. The truth is I didn't like raking leaves. Never have. Never will. Even bought a house in the city with no trees to avoid just that. For you the truth is you haven't read most of what OldHermit has said or even shown. (A map! This ain't graduate study.) You're stuck with "my way, or no way, but I'll give you plenty of reason that my way is always right and then cloak it in "the Bible says so."
Yeah. Really hasn't worked for me, even when I was 8. You're smart enough to know better too.
If you're not willing to put in any effort, (a map! I can't get past the fact you couldn't even read a map given to answer you -- you didn't have to agree, but at least you should remember he did give one and you read it), go back to posting how you alone are sinless. At least you're willing to put in the effort to keep that topic going.
A
It's wilderness, not dessert. Enough space for all those peoples' sheep and cattle to graze for 40 years, and enough space for those already living their to support themselves. There were plenty of folks already living there.
It's not scriptural, but I imagine them like our self-sustaining folks -- people willing to put in greater effort to live a simpler life than I am. For me, give me indoor plumbing, electricity, a supermarket, a comfortable chair and bed, and an indoor kitchen. I'll live off someone else's effort and pay for the privilege. Those folks already living there wanted to be left alone.
The thing they had against the Israelites was obvious -- their cattle were eating up the food for the inhabitant's cattle. Think bigger. New Yorkers moving in mass to Texas. There's going to be problems. lol
It's not scriptural, but I imagine them like our self-sustaining folks -- people willing to put in greater effort to live a simpler life than I am. For me, give me indoor plumbing, electricity, a supermarket, a comfortable chair and bed, and an indoor kitchen. I'll live off someone else's effort and pay for the privilege. Those folks already living there wanted to be left alone.
The thing they had against the Israelites was obvious -- their cattle were eating up the food for the inhabitant's cattle. Think bigger. New Yorkers moving in mass to Texas. There's going to be problems. lol
Okay, it looks like things have slowed down in this discussion so let' begin looking at the plagues shall we.
Let us begin with the water into blood.
The Plague of Blood, 14- 25 - Water into blood. Like the staff into the serpent, this miracle defies the laws of physics. Even the natural elements are going to respond to the will of God. In the natural process of physics, water molecules remain water molecules no matter what you do to them. You can turn it into a solid, you can convert it into steam/vapor/gas, and you can return it to its natural liquid state but, in each state, the water molecules still remain two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. They never simply transform into some other substance. Yet, they did! And they did it in a liquid state. When Aaron stretched his staff over the water, all the water of the land became blood.
A. Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicate the miracle. If they can duplicate the miracle, then Pharaoh can simply shrug it off to naturalistic explanations and disregard the power behind Moses demands. And God allow it to be so. What the magicians could not do was turn the blood into water.
B. Naturalistic explanation – Many explanations are offered by commentators attempting to explain the miracle of blood. They try to present each miracle as a chain reaction with each new event being the result of the one that preceded it. This theory was advanced by Greta Hort in the 1958 and this has since come to be known as 'Hort's Chain Reaction'. The “rivers into blood” has been attributed to:
1. A massive infusion of red clay into the Nile causing the river to take on a red color.
2. The presence of red algae in the water.
Neither of these would have killed all the fish nor would it have made the water undrinkable. Questions:
a. Were the people so ignorant that the did not know the difference between red colored muddy water and blood?
b. If the waters has simply become red due to some natural process, then why did the magicians duplicate the event?
C. The magnitude of the miracle
1. All the waters of Egypt
a. The rivers - All seven branches of the Nile that existed at the time.
b. The streams
c. The pools
d. The reservoirs
e. And whatever water was stored in all vessels of both wood and stone. These were for the household use. So, even the water that had been gotten earlier in the day for the daily use of the household was also turned into blood.
2. All the marine life dies, the river became foul and undrinkable. The putrid smell of blood that begins to sour in the sun would have made the land intolerable to live in. In addition to this would have been the smell of the decaying marine life in every river, stream, and pool.
D. The duration of the plague was seven days. The impact upon both the people and the livestock would have been devastating.
Let us begin with the water into blood.
The Plague of Blood, 14- 25 - Water into blood. Like the staff into the serpent, this miracle defies the laws of physics. Even the natural elements are going to respond to the will of God. In the natural process of physics, water molecules remain water molecules no matter what you do to them. You can turn it into a solid, you can convert it into steam/vapor/gas, and you can return it to its natural liquid state but, in each state, the water molecules still remain two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. They never simply transform into some other substance. Yet, they did! And they did it in a liquid state. When Aaron stretched his staff over the water, all the water of the land became blood.
A. Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicate the miracle. If they can duplicate the miracle, then Pharaoh can simply shrug it off to naturalistic explanations and disregard the power behind Moses demands. And God allow it to be so. What the magicians could not do was turn the blood into water.
B. Naturalistic explanation – Many explanations are offered by commentators attempting to explain the miracle of blood. They try to present each miracle as a chain reaction with each new event being the result of the one that preceded it. This theory was advanced by Greta Hort in the 1958 and this has since come to be known as 'Hort's Chain Reaction'. The “rivers into blood” has been attributed to:
1. A massive infusion of red clay into the Nile causing the river to take on a red color.
2. The presence of red algae in the water.
Neither of these would have killed all the fish nor would it have made the water undrinkable. Questions:
a. Were the people so ignorant that the did not know the difference between red colored muddy water and blood?
b. If the waters has simply become red due to some natural process, then why did the magicians duplicate the event?
C. The magnitude of the miracle
1. All the waters of Egypt
a. The rivers - All seven branches of the Nile that existed at the time.
b. The streams
c. The pools
d. The reservoirs
e. And whatever water was stored in all vessels of both wood and stone. These were for the household use. So, even the water that had been gotten earlier in the day for the daily use of the household was also turned into blood.
2. All the marine life dies, the river became foul and undrinkable. The putrid smell of blood that begins to sour in the sun would have made the land intolerable to live in. In addition to this would have been the smell of the decaying marine life in every river, stream, and pool.
D. The duration of the plague was seven days. The impact upon both the people and the livestock would have been devastating.
Last edited:
Oh I would have to believe the Plagues were ALL LITERAL plagues... bloody water? yes bloody water... etc etc.. the Literal Aspect of the Plagues, if they were something 'natural', maybe something Egypt had experienced before, then the REALITY of the Judgment would not be 'real,' from the Standpoint of God using these to Harden Pharaoh. The Purpose of the Miraculous Plagues or Judgments were to 'harden Pharaoh ' further each time. When He Pours out His Divine Judgment, people either turn back to Him, or they are Hardened Further into sin and rebellion and un belief. just my .02 ------->looking at the Supernatural Judgment or Plagues of God.. here is where I lean ALMOST entirely on the Supernatural Sovereign Hand of God as He deals with man who is in un belief and presumputuousness....(pride)
The Jews knew less about ancient Hebrew than we do. They simply read it in terms of their own day. The translators translate on the same terms. They mainly translate for the ordinary reader. The ancient use of numbers is a complicated subject. It is only gradually being recognised. It will take some time before conclusions are reached that will demonstrate unreservedly HOW numbers should be translated.
Originally Posted by valiant
The Jews knew less about ancient Hebrew than we do. They simply read it in terms of their own day. The translators translate on the same terms. They mainly translate for the ordinary reader. The ancient use of numbers is a complicated subject. It is only gradually being recognised. It will take some time before conclusions are reached that will demonstrate unreservedly HOW numbers should be translated.
Or perhaps evidence that you have a closed mind?
I have been thumbing through the pages of this thread and my question would be.....What serious spiritual significance is gained from knowing the exact route taken by the Exodus travels.....the bigger picture is what does the wandering represent, what does the delivery from the wilderness represent and why it took a SAVIOR to deliver to the promise land (Joshua) over the LAW and prophets (MOSES and Aaron) which could only take the people so far while POINTING the direction and to the SAVIOR!