Crossing the Red Sea

[Agricola]

Ah the lengths and outrageous theories that athiests and non-belivers go to and come up with in order to explain away God.

I remember seeing a set of ancient images carved into stone. People wondered what it was about, some man standing on one end facing down an egyptian in a chariot, 2 other stone images just depicted wavy lines, they were laid out in a line, but if you put those blocks above and below the other image then it sure looks like the parting of the red sea. Can not remember where I saw this. tried Google, but maybe someone will know .

 

[Agricola]

You still cannot get around the fact that the text itself says specifically that it was dry ground, not moist ground, not muddy ground, not partially dry ground or any other way one may wish to minimalize this, but DRY GROUND.

When you look at the numbers involved in the exodus, the parting must have been very very wide, which of course could explain why some people missed it and were in disbelief, how wide was the parting? we see images of a narrow corridor, but it would have taken months for that many people to walk through a narrow gap, what if the sea was parted miles wide?

lets say you were at the end of the procession of people in the exodus, you would have been days away or even more from the front, lets say Moses parts the sea, maybe message went back down, chinese whispers message not passed back properly, the sea was parted leaving a mile wide passage.

The floor would have quickly dried out in the heat, a few days later and this would have been baked hard, tired, hungry not thinking about the surroundings you march onwards, and walk along, not realising you were walking on the sea bed and the sea was a shimmering wall of light in the distance.

 

[MarcR]

ouch simiel looks like your banned. what a shame. You cant state facts here, they operate on belief

Facts are well rcceived here, man, what we don't like here is your silly opinions masquerading as facts.

 

[TheTrueKing]

Facts are well rcceived here, man, what we don't like here is your silly opinions masquerading as facts.

Well I did look up what he/she said it is true.

Did you?

 

[Reborn]

Facts are well rcceived here, man, what we don't like here is your silly opinions masquerading as facts.

Well said.
I tried a play of words.


I should stop playing.

 

[oldhermit]

When you look at the numbers involved in the exodus, the parting must have been very very wide, which of course could explain why some people missed it and were in disbelief, how wide was the parting? we see images of a narrow corridor, but it would have taken months for that many people to walk through a narrow gap, what if the sea was parted miles wide?

lets say you were at the end of the procession of people in the exodus, you would have been days away or even more from the front, lets say Moses parts the sea, maybe message went back down, chinese whispers message not passed back properly, the sea was parted leaving a mile wide passage.

The floor would have quickly dried out in the heat, a few days later and this would have been baked hard, tired, hungry not thinking about the surroundings you march onwards, and walk along, not realising you were walking on the sea bed and the sea was a shimmering wall of light in the distance.

Yes, and the crossing took place in about 24 hours. Notice 14:21-24. "Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. The Egyptians pursued and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. And in the morning watch the Lord in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down on the Egyptian forces and threw the Egyptian forces into a panic,"

God had allowed the Wind to blow all through the night and divided the waters. Assuming that Israel began the crossing immediately thereafter in the early daylight hours, it took them all day and most of the next night to effect the crossing because God does not allow the Egyptian army does not pursue until the morning watch of the next day. So this took some time.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

When you look at the numbers involved in the exodus, the parting must have been very very wide, which of course could explain why some people missed it and were in disbelief, how wide was the parting? we see images of a narrow corridor, but it would have taken months for that many people to walk through a narrow gap, what if the sea was parted miles wide?

lets say you were at the end of the procession of people in the exodus, you would have been days away or even more from the front, lets say Moses parts the sea, maybe message went back down, chinese whispers message not passed back properly, the sea was parted leaving a mile wide passage.

The floor would have quickly dried out in the heat, a few days later and this would have been baked hard, tired, hungry not thinking about the surroundings you march onwards, and walk along, not realising you were walking on the sea bed and the sea was a shimmering wall of light in the distance.

The Word does not tell us how wide the dry ground was.. our natural carnal mind would think.. well its got to be WIDE for that many people.. but remember your dealing with a SUPERNATURAL EVENT.. not natural, so all those people crossing a 24 HR period, on a much NARROWER path, is NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION... How could God take and deliver millions of people across a much narrower path than what the natural man thru his/her physics might cipher, By His Supernatural Power, just as He took off the wheels of the Chariots of the Armies of Pharaoh, in reading and understanding His Word , from the older translations. we see it as SUPERNATURAL... not a natural taking off of the Wheels.. thus God delivering them thru a much Narrower path of Dry Ground, is POSSIBLE.. because God is behind it.. but the Word does not tell us in description how wide it was... all We have is the Master's teaching on the Path to Life.. can you correlate that with the Width of the Dry Ground with that many people .. maybe....the carnal man says no.. it wont work. but with God all things are possible.. and His Hand was behind this whole situation.. indeed!

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Dan_473]

The KJV scholars were under a tight thumb (yet still maintained as much as they could to get it right.) The Vulgate (also done to the best possible at that time) had errors of its own. Now the source MSS are more open for scholars and more archaeological finds have taught the scholars more. There's more to the reasoning for making more modern versions than just getting rid of the Ye's and Thou's.

yes, and I just used the kjv as an example... modern translators sometimes come to a place in the masoretic that can't be rendered, or doesn't make sense... they often look to see how the lxx, aramaic, or vulgate handle it...

that's what I remember from my commentary reading days... unfortunately, the one commentary that had lots of examples for this is at a university library that I don't have acces to anymore...


I looked online to find examples of ot translation difficulties, but the search engines brought up loads of sites wanting to show the lxx is better than masoretic...

 

[Dan_473]

More than enough to beat Custer, and that's fewer than before whites showed up. Have you ever seen a city of 100,000 people? Now, put that same population in a bigger area (like, say the Sinai Peninsula), and it doesn't shrink the number. It just spreads them out further. The Lakota, Dakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho, weren't good buddies, but when some foreigners showed up, they gathered and united big time. That is something like I'm imagining happened to/with the Israelites. It was wilderness, but so were the Dakotas.


It may have, but the natives weren't using it for farming either.


Hey? Did we just agree? Because now you're doing the same thing I was doing (increasing numbers) but in a bigger way. lol

I don't know much about custer, but I think there were more indians than us army... could be wrong...

yes, the number is the same regardless of area... did the peeps in sinai band together? how many people are you estimating in sinai?

right, the natives in ND weren't using it for farming... are you saying there was lots of farming in sinai?

maybe we did agree... maybe I wasn't following you all along... if a billion chinese (or 600,000 israelites) moved into texas (or sinai) the people already there wouldn't be able to resist very much...

 

[Dan_473]

Sorry, didn't bother with NASB this time. (Used to have it, but figured I've got enough scholars to learn from, so I don't have to download 20 versions.)

KJV through Strong's Concordance:
râchaph
raw-khaf'
A primitive root; to brood; by implication to be relaxed: - flutter, move, shake.

ASV - moved
ESV - hovering
Barnes - rāchaph, “be soft, tremble.” Piel, “brood, flutter.”
Clarke - Moved - מרחפת merachepheth, was brooding over; for the word expresses that tremulous motion made by the hen while either hatching her eggs or fostering her young. It here probably signifies the communicating a vital or prolific principle to the waters. As the idea of incubation, or hatching an egg, is implied in the original word, hence probably the notion, which prevailed among the ancients, that the world was generated from an egg.
Gill (warning, he's long winded) - and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, which covered the earth, Psa_104:6 the earthy particles being heaviest sunk lower, and the waters being lighter rose up above the others: hence Thales (q) the philosopher makes water to be the beginning of all things, as do the Indian Brahmans (r): and Aristotle (s) himself owns that this was the most ancient opinion concerning the origin of the universe, and observes, that it was not only the opinion of Thales, but of those that were the most remote from the then present generation in which he lived, and of those that first wrote on divine things; and it is frequent in Hesiod and Homer to make Oceanus, or the ocean, with Tethys, to be the parents of generation: and so the Scriptures represent the original earth as standing out of the water, and consisting of it, 2Pe_3:5 and upon the surface of these waters, before they were drained off the earth, "the Spirit of God moved"; which is to be understood not of a wind, as Onkelos, Aben Ezra, and many Jewish writers, as well as Christians, interpret it; since the air, which the wind is a motion of, was not made until the second day. The Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem call it the spirit of mercies; and by it is meant the Spirit of the Messiah, as many Jewish writers (t) call him; that is, the third Person in the blessed Trinity, who was concerned in the creation of all things, as in the garnishing of the heavens, so in bringing the confused matter of the earth and water into form and order; see Job_26:13. This same Spirit "moved" or brooded (u) upon the face of the waters, to impregnate them, as an hen upon eggs to hatch them, so he to separate the parts which were mixed together, and give them a quickening virtue to produce living creatures in them. This sense and idea of the word are finely expressed by our poet (w). Some traces of this appear in the νους or mind of Anaxagoras, which when all things were mixed together came and set them in order (x); and the "mens" of Thales he calls God, which formed all things out of water ; and the "spiritus intus alit", &c. of Virgil; and with this agrees what Hermes says, that there was an infinite darkness in the abyss or deep, and water, and a small intelligent spirit, endued with a divine power, were in the chaos (z): and perhaps from hence is the mundane egg, or egg of Orpheus (a): or the firstborn or first laid egg, out of which all things were formed; and which he borrowed from the Egyptians and Phoenicians, and they perhaps from the Jews, and which was reckoned by them a resemblance of the world. The Egyptians had a deity they called Cneph, out of whose mouth went forth an egg, which they interpreted of the world (b): and the Zophasemin of the Phoenicians, which were heavenly birds, were, according to Sanchoniatho (c), of the form of an egg; and in the rites of Bacchus they worshipped an egg, as being an image of the world, as Macrobius (d) says; and therefore he thought the question, whether an hen or an egg was oldest, was of some moment, and deserved consideration: and the Chinese say (e), that the first man was produced out of the chaos as from an egg, the shell of which formed the heavens, the white the air, and the yolk the earth; and to this incubation of the spirit, or wind, as some would have it, is owing the windy egg of Aristophanes (f). (Thomas Chamlers (1780-1847) in 1814 was the first to purpose that there is a gap between verse 1 and 2. Into this gap he places a pre-Adamic age, about which the scriptures say nothing. Some great catastrophe took place, which left the earth "without form and void" or ruined, in which state it remained for as many years as the geologist required. (g) This speculation has been popularised by the 1917 Scofield Reference Bible. However, the numerous rock layers that are the supposed proof for these ages, were mainly laid down by Noah's flood. In Exo_20:11 we read of a literal six day creation. No gaps, not even for one minute, otherwise these would not be six normal days. Also, in Rom_5:12 we read that death is the result of Adam's sin. Because the rock layers display death on a grand scale, they could not have existed before the fall of Adam. There is no direct evidence that the earth is much older than six thousand years. However, we have the direct eyewitness report of God himself that he made everything in six days. Tracing back through the biblical genealogies we can determine the age of the universe to be about six thousand years with an error of not more than two per cent.
JFB - the Spirit of God moved — literally, continued brooding over it, as a fowl does, when hatching eggs. The immediate agency of the Spirit, by working on the dead and discordant elements, combined, arranged, and ripened them into a state adapted for being the scene of a new creation. The account of this new creation properly begins at the end of this second verse; and the details of the process are described in the natural way an onlooker would have done, who beheld the changes that successively took place.

Did I miss the implication of the word we use? This is what I'm saying. Scholars have been working out the details for centuries. We fell in a good time, because we benefit from all their hard work. If we want to learn what a word in the Bible means, most of the time someone's already put in the effort.

Even when they can't come up with the exact right word, they still put in the effort, and then tell us what that effort was. If we want to learn the effort, we have to put in a little less effort and read what they wrote. (eSword.net makes it much less effort. lol) That easy.

not yet... your post was long, so I skimmed it... my point was that sometimes translators aren't sure which word to use... does your post say which one to use?

here's the nasb note

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen1&version=NASB

sorry I didn't put that in my earlier post.

 

[Dan_473]

Heaven's no! I'm not that crazy. lol

It's my opinion that if someone comes on your land and starts using it without your approval, you're going to fight, no matter the numbers. And, because it's my land and I have more to lose, I have advantage despite the numbers.

The Brits beat back Germany, American colonist beat back England, and even some native Americans beat back the seventh cavalry, all because "it's my land!!!" The only reason the Israelites won, is because God chose them. The natives of that wilderness had all rights to fight. They missed "God is on our side."

I'm thinking maybe 100,000, maybe 500,000 in that area banded together. We're not told how many, only how many Israelites fought and how long the battle lasted. (Oh, and a staff held up by Moses with a little help from his friends.) Also, remember 3 million was everybody. A "mere" 600,000 men. But the number of natives, I was guessing all, including the women and kids. But I really am guessing in comparison to places I know better and populations of those folks. It really is mostly guess work with a little memory that Isaac's half-brother Ishmael's descendants lived there. I remember reading his genealogy in Genesis, and it grew pretty big by the time it stopped continuing. There are tribes by this time.

I'm not doubting that the sinai native intended to fight... I'm wondering why they would be even mildly successfull...

Moses holds his hands up in the battle with amelek... the israelites win eventually... I thought there was more than one battle the israelites are involved with in sinai... I could be wrong...

so, you're thinking possibly 500,000 native sinai warriors?

 

[Dan_473]

I dray a conclusion concerning the carts but when Israel left Egypt the plundered the nation taking the wealth and anything of value, gold, clothing, jewelry, etc. How do you suppose they carried all of this, on their backs?

does the bible say how much they took out? I assumed they could carry it in their hands, suitcases, etc... but maybe part of the plunder was carts...

 

[oldhermit]

does the bible say how much they took out? I assumed they could carry it in their hands, suitcases, etc... but maybe part of the plunder was carts...

No, scripture does not really give us any specifics about how mush plunder was taken suffice it to say that they spoiled Egypt. There are hints however. When you look at the building materials that are used in the building of the tabernacle and its furnishings along with the amount of gold that is given for this purpose it seems very clear that Egypt was stripped of its wealth, not just in gold but rare animal skins, wood, fine cloths, and jewels. All of this wealth of plunder had to be transported somehow and we know from Num 7 that they definitely had wagons. In 38:24-31 we are given the amount of precious metals that were used just in the building of the tabernacle.

1. Gold - 29 Talents and 730 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
2. Silver - 100 Talents and 1775 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
3. Copper - 70 Talents and 2400 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
There were 3000 silver shekels of the sanctuary in 1 talent. The approximate weight of one silver shekel of the sanctuary was approximately 11g. So, $42,640,673 of gold was used, $3,091,929 in silver, and $21,027. This would put the total value at of precious metals used in the tabernacle at $45,753,629.

 

[Dan_473]

I dray a conclusion concerning the carts but when Israel left Egypt the plundered the nation taking the wealth and anything of value, gold, clothing, jewelry, etc. How do you suppose they carried all of this, on their backs?

the thing I was most interested in was the ground psi of the chariots of that day...

also, an important idea in this post! if the bible doesn't say the israelites had carts at the red sea... yet we can guess that they did based on

if they carried lots of weight

if they had carts by numbers 7

if the carts themselves were part of the spoils

so, with things that the bible doesn't state, we can still make good guesses about... and I think that's part of biblical interpretation...

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Can you imagine the Rage and Fury of Pharaoh, when he saw Israel, with a multitude of Egypt's goods? alone in the Wilderness, then coming to the Red Sea, with no way out.. mmmmm as a 'wolf' that would be an opportune time to take the spoil back, and devourer those who took it... mmmm to me it would seem God trapped the Wolf of Egypt , at the Red Sea, with bringing Israel to that point, parting the waters, then dropping them back on the Egyptians.. for Pharaoh thought Israel was Trapped.. when the veil is pulled away.. it was the Egyptians that were trapped... and then He sprung the Trap, with waters coming down on top of them, destroying them..indeed..

Babylon, thou are Taken, I have laid a snare for thee... indeed.. Sound similar? indeed!

 

[Dan_473]

You still cannot get around the fact that the text itself says specifically that it was dry ground, not moist ground, not muddy ground, not partially dry ground or any other way one may wish to minimalize this, but DRY GROUND.

yes, certainly... well, does dry ground mean zero moisture ground? I think it would turn to dust... which God maybe miraculously held in place while the israelites walked across it... maybe it's the dust that makes the chariot wheels not work right...

 

[Dan_473]

It was possible, but now that we know the Israelites had wheels too, and carried goldsmithing tools big enough to make solid gold candles (the forerunner of the menorah), I think we've wiped out that one.

wiped out that one? I don't understand

 

[Bowhunter2394]

How do you trap a wolf in sheep's clothing today, a modern day wolf in sheeps clothing? best bait is $$$$$$$$ , you put that out there, then they come.. claiming what is there's rightfully in the 'lord'. .lolz.. in my personal case, they come, playing magic, to create circumstances that create some sense of 'false chastisment or depression'... thus manipulating those they target to fall for it and fall under their dominon of pharmaceutical medication to create the illusion' he's done mentally.. and thus steal and plunder what is rightfully yours. oh the cunning one... that magic of modern day sorcerers.... the Anointing breaks that yoke of Egyptian type bondage and delusion. indeed!

you put a $$$$ value out there, then you see the avarice 'ones' come.. much like pharaoh of his day.. lolz... these 'tares', claiming what is there's.. when its not.. when it was Puchased with His blood at the tRee.. I know of quite a few wolfs that are 'trapped' right now.. indeed.....

let their table be made a snare, a trap, a recompense unto them! indeed!

 

[Dan_473]

Um, why? Do you know any non-stubborn, non-stiffed-necked people? I don't. lol

no, I don't know any either... I go with the biblical idea of 'out of the mouths of two or three witness'... so, yes, pay attention to what Jewish people know, but it's not like a Jewish person said it, so that's the end of it...

 

[Dan_473]

No, scripture does not really give us any specifics about how mush plunder was taken suffice it to say that they spoiled Egypt. There are hints however. When you look at the building materials that are used in the building of the tabernacle and its furnishings along with the amount of gold that is given for this purpose it seems very clear that Egypt was stripped of its wealth, not just in gold but rare animal skins, wood, fine cloths, and jewels. All of this wealth of plunder had to be transported somehow and we know from Num 7 that they definitely had wagons. In 38:24-31 we are given the amount of precious metals that were used just in the building of the tabernacle.

1. Gold - 29 Talents and 730 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
2. Silver - 100 Talents and 1775 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
3. Copper - 70 Talents and 2400 Sanctuary Silver Shekels.
There were 3000 silver shekels of the sanctuary in 1 talent. The approximate weight of one silver shekel of the sanctuary was approximately 11g. So, $42,640,673 of gold was used, $3,091,929 in silver, and $21,027. This would put the total value at of precious metals used in the tabernacle at $45,753,629.

good research! to me, this brings up ideas about bible interpretation...

since the israelites have this much gold at the time of the tabernacle, it seems reasonable to say they brought it from egypt...

another explanation is that God caused the israelites to miraculuosly have that much gold...

I like to go with the reasonable way, and I think you do to...