Daniel is out of chronological order.

[cfultz3]

What do people think God will do with those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? But have obeyed the Law written upon their heart faithfully? Is the following not saying that it is the intent of the heart which shall be judged by Jesus Christ?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another: )
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do people think God will do with those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? But have obeyed the Law written upon their heart faithfully? Is the following not saying that it is the intent of the heart which shall be judged by Jesus Christ?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another: )
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.​

what does paul say about every one of those. who are those that do these things?

James speaks of them too

 

[cfultz3]

what does paul say about every one of those. who are those that do these things?

James speaks of them too

Will you refresh my memory please.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Will you refresh my memory please.

romans 1: [SUP]8 [/SUP]First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. [SUP]17[/SUP]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

rom 3: [SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24[/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Since you quoted romans alot. I wanted to give you pauls perspective given to those same people.


As for james, Faith without works is dead. Those who do not do everything you showed us do not have faith but mere believe, Everyone who has been born of God through the gsopel and true faith in Christ WILL do the things you showed in romans 2.

does this make sense?

 

[Therapon]

Ellis will you confirm or deny that you wrote that?

Go back to the post so you cn read it in context

 

[cfultz3]

romans 1: [SUP]8 [/SUP]First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. [SUP]17[/SUP]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

rom 3: [SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24[/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Since you quoted romans alot. I wanted to give you pauls perspective given to those same people.


As for james, Faith without works is dead. Those who do not do everything you showed us do not have faith but mere believe, Everyone who has been born of God through the gsopel and true faith in Christ WILL do the things you showed in romans 2.

does this make sense?

What of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ? What becomes of them?

 

[Therapon]

Ellis, you may sigh or smile but how on earth can you justify writing such things?

You either believe the Messiah:

John 6




John 14



Or you reject the Yahshua Messiah and Heavenly Father in favour of the deception.

May He have mercy upon you.

Devout Jews do believe in Messiah, they are just blinded to the truth that their Messiah is our Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ? What becomes of them?

Does God have the power that if he knows someone would recieve his truth, he would send them the truth?

is it not the HS's job to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment? Would this not bring everyone to God consciousnesses? would it not provoke God, if they were sincere in their calling out to God to send them the gospel via a missionary or something else?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Devout Jews do believe in Messiah, they are just blinded to the truth that their Messiah is our Jesus.

then they are lost. and going to hell. because they are blinded in unbelief. not because God is withholding the truth from them..And their only hope is to repent and come to Christ

There is one name under heaven in which ALL men must be saved, And that name is Christ.

The devout jews are looking for a king. not a savior that is why they can not find Christ. The ones who look for a redeemer find Christ every day.

 

[Therapon]

What do people think God will do with those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? But have obeyed the Law written upon their heart faithfully? Is the following not saying that it is the intent of the heart which shall be judged by Jesus Christ?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another: )
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
​

Exactly! and thank you. I was going to get to that chapter next. <smile>

​

 

[Therapon]

then they are lost. and going to hell. because they are blinded in unbelief. not because God is withholding the truth from them..And their only hope is to repent and come to Christ

There is one name under heaven in which ALL men must be saved, And that name is Christ.

The devout jews are looking for a king. not a savior that is why they can not find Christ. The ones who look for a redeemer find Christ every day.

So people are lost because they don't have the right doctrine? Talk to you later, gotta lot of verses to cut out of my Bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly! and thank you. I was going to get to that chapter next. <smile>

[/INDENT]

if your going to get to it. get to the whole of scripture. And find out who does those things.

The penalty of sin is death, period. no ands ifs or buts. The gift of God is eternal life. don't recieve the gift.. And your dead. for all eternity.

Hebrews makes it clear. the law never saved ANYONE. Never has, NEVER WILL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So people are lost because they don't have the right doctrine? Talk to you later, gotta lot of verses to cut out of my Bible.

They are lost because they do not have the right gospel. The gospel is not a doctrine, it is the truth of God.

Go cut passages out of scripture. You teach a false gospel. and many will go to hell if they listen to you thinking they do not have to repent and accept Christ.

Your dangerous!

 

[cfultz3]

Does God have the power that if he knows someone would recieve his truth, he would send them the truth?

is it not the HS's job to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment? Would this not bring everyone to God consciousnesses? would it not provoke God, if they were sincere in their calling out to God to send them the gospel via a missionary or something else?

Let us say that we are now living in 100AD in Hawaii. We both know that God has written upon every man's heart His Law. Say we are Gentiles (of coarse). The opportunity to have heard of God's Gospel never came to us, but all our live we lived out that Law. We worked good from the heart that conviction. According to Romans 2, what would we receive?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let us say that we are now living in 100AD in Hawaii. We both know that God has written upon every man's heart His Law. Say we are Gentiles (of coarse). The opportunity to have heard of God's Gospel never came to us, but all our live we lived out that Law. We worked good from the heart that conviction. According to Romans 2, what would we receive?

were they sinners? if they were you were dead to God.. The only way to God without the redeemer is sinless perfection. no excuses.

what can make us alive in Christ?

Could God have shown them Christ supernaturally? Yes.. the word went out from moses to all the world.. They could have remembered that word..

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.. that goes for those people in hawaii too. or do you not believe that?

and again, If God knew they were positive. do you doubt God has the power to get them the gospel. even then??

 

[1still_waters]

So people are lost because they don't have the right doctrine? Talk to you later, gotta lot of verses to cut out of my Bible.

Your gambit seems to be this.

Jews can be saved without "recognizing" Jesus.
Meaning, that the Holy Spirit can be working in them, but they don't recognize that it's actually the Gospel/Jesus.
So even though they don't "recognize" that it's Jesus, they are still saved because it is actually Jesus working in them, it's just that they don't grasp/understand it.

This type of twist on things, puts one on a very slippery slope to universalism.
In fact it may put one on that slope.

Here's the problem, many "all roads lead to homers" have the same twist on things.
They'll say that a good Hindu is actually saved because all that "good" working in them is actually Jesus/Holy Spirit. It's just that they don't recognize it as Jesus.

Here's a prime example. They want to say folks are saved, even if they are in another faith that doesn't recognize Jesus.
[video=youtube;hrf60-zHl9A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrf60-zHl9A[/video]

In our hopes to see all saved, we may in fact put people on a slope toward their destruction.

 

[cfultz3]

were they sinners? if they were you were dead to God.. The only way to God without the redeemer is sinless perfection. no excuses.

We all were sinners and dead to God. The righteous of the Law died and went to Paradise to await their Deliverer. And as you said, "the Word went out from Moses to all the world", and this being true, then the Law was written upon every man's heart. If the Jew found their righteousness from the Law, it would seem that those who obeyed that same Law also found their righteousness through that same Law, seeing that those Gentiles, who had not the Law, did obey the Law was a law within themselves.

what can make us alive in Christ?

By dying to the flesh. If they who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, but put to death the flesh and obeyed from the heart and sought to do that goodness which was written upon their heart, it would seem Romans 2 is saying that Jesus Christ will judge them accordingly.

Could God have shown them Christ supernaturally? Yes.. the word went out from moses to all the world.. They could have remembered that word.. (by the Holy Spirit the world knew God's Law. )

I agree with you. It is by that same Holy Spirit who convicts the world of righteousness that they who have never heard of the Gospel and yet are doers of that Law written within that they will be justified. It says that it is not the hearers of the Law who are justified but the doers who will be justified when God will judge the hidden things of men through Jesus Christ by the Gospel.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.. that goes for those people in hawaii too. or do you not believe that?

Yes, we all have fallen short of God's glory and praise God that it is through faith and not works that one is justified and we are freely rendered just by His grace through that fully paid ransom by Jesus Christ.

.......................

But this is my dilemma too: He is the Justifier of those who believe in Jesus. Yet, there are those who have never heard of Jesus in their lifetime. You say that He could have supernaturally shown Himself to one who earnestly seek Him, and I understand this as: He shines the Light upon everyone who enters into this world. Since He is the Light, it would seem to me that He, in essence, is showing Himself to all, and in our case here, to those who have never heard of Him. If one is following that Light, is he not following Jesus?

What do you think of the above paragraph?

 

[1still_waters]

How does faith come about?

Romans 10
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So if someone is going to have faith, it's going to arise because they heard the word of God.
Not because they had some weird unknown working in them. That's not how faith arises.
The word of God comes to them with a distinct message. A message that they'll know.
And what is that message?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is surely more than some unknown to the person, working of God in them.
Salvation involved hearing a distinct message of words from God..ie the Gospel.
Then once that faith arises from the distinct message one confesses and believes a very specific thing.

This whole idea of someone being saved without actually knowing what's going on inside of them is totally foreign to the Bible.

Faith starts with hearing the distinct message from God.
Then it confesses and understands and believes something specific.

 

[cfultz3]

How does faith come about?

Romans 10
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So if someone is going to have faith, it's going to arise because they heard the word of God.
Not because they had some weird unknown working in them. That's not how faith arises.
The word of God comes to them with a distinct message. A message that they'll know.
And what is that message?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is surely more than some unknown to the person, working of God in them.
Salvation involved hearing a distinct message of words from God..ie the Gospel.
Then once that faith arises from the distinct message one confesses and believes a very specific thing.

This whole idea of someone being saved without actually knowing what's going on inside of them is totally foreign to the Bible.

Faith starts with hearing the distinct message from God.
Then it confesses and understands and believes something specific.

That does not solve my dilemma. What of those who never physically heard of the Gospel? What about Jesus enlightening all who comes into this world? What about the Spirit convicting the world of righteousness, even those who have never physically heard of the Gospel? What purpose then does it serve the Spirit to convict? Does not that Spirit-ual conviction, apart from man intervention, lead to the Light (Jesus Christ)?

 

[JGPS]

Your gambit seems to be this.

Jews can be saved without "recognizing" Jesus.
Meaning, that the Holy Spirit can be working in them, but they don't recognize that it's actually the Gospel/Jesus.
So even though they don't "recognize" that it's Jesus, they are still saved because it is actually Jesus working in them, it's just that they don't grasp/understand it.

This type of twist on things, puts one on a very slippery slope to universalism.
In fact it may put one on that slope.

Here's the problem, many "all roads lead to homers" have the same twist on things.
They'll say that a good Hindu is actually saved because all that "good" working in them is actually Jesus/Holy Spirit. It's just that they don't recognize it as Jesus.

Here's a prime example. They want to say folks are saved, even if they are in another faith that doesn't recognize Jesus.
[video=youtube;hrf60-zHl9A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrf60-zHl9A[/video]

In our hopes to see all saved, we may in fact put people on a slope toward their destruction.

"Those that seek God but don't know the details about him will be saved" is a very different doctrine from universalisms "All shall be saved". And it doesn't 'slip' to universalism at all. That view has stood on its own ground independently of universalism many times.