Daniel's 1st Chiasm

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Therapon

Guest
#1
Fron internal Scriptural evidence, it can be proven that Daniel is out of chronological order, that the book had to addresses: (1) the Gentile empires (and their descendents) who would control the holy land During the "time of the Gentiles" or until 1948 (2) the Jewish people during that same "time of the Gentiles."

Daniel 5:30
“In that night Belshazzar the Chaldean King was slain.”
Daniel 7:1 “In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon”
Daniel 8:1 “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar.”

Those are the scriptural givens. Daniel 7 and 8 were obviously written before chapter 5, so Daniel is unarguably out of chronological order. Now look at this . . .

Daniel 6:1
“It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom a hundred and twenty satraps.”
Daniel 9:1 “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes.”

Daniel was “daily in the king’s court,” second ruler in the land, obviously a master of court protocol, so he would never have started writing about a king before telling the reader who that king was. In Daniel 9, Darius is introduced. In Daniel 6, the readers already know who Darius is, so Daniel 9 was written before Daniel 6.

In Daniel 12:4, God tells Daniel to “seal and conceal the words of this book.” in Daniel 12:9, we read, “these words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end.” Now Daniel could not rewrite what the Holy Spirit had inspired, but he had to do something to obey the command of 12:4. So it appears that Daniel put his visions out of chronological order. Here is their original chronological order . . .

1. Introduction, ch.1, in Hebrew.
2. The great image, ch.2, in Chaldee.
3. the fiery furnace, ch.3 in Chaldee.
4. Nebuchadnezzar goes insane, ch.4, in Chaldee
5. The four Beasts (now ch.7) in Chaldee.
6. The Two Beasts (now ch.8) in Chaldee.
7, Belshazzar dies., ch.5, in Chaldee.
8. The 70 weeks, ch.9, in Hebrew.
9. Daniel in the lion’s den, ch. 6, in Chaldee.
10. Two Empires, ch 10-12 in Hebrew.

That is from irrefutable scriptural evidence! When Daniel put his chapters out of order, as we now see in the Bible, Daniel accomplished two things:

First: he put the Hebrew chapters separate from the Chaldee chapters, clearly showing that Daniel indeed had two audiences: (1) the Gentile nations who would control the holy land into the distant future (2) the future of the Jewish people during that same. So Daniel is bifidic and his prophecies to Gentiles and Jews are primarily about same “the time of the Gentiles.”

Second: it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that Daniel actually does have 2 chiasms, the first a three-part in Chaldee to the Gentiles, second a two-part in Hebrew to the Jews. Neither would have been formed if Daniel had not been put out of order!

A ch.2, The Great Image 4 Gentile Empires
B ch.3, The Fiery Furnace God's People in Tribulation
C ch.4, Nebuchadnezzar Insane Gentile Rulers Judged
C ch.5, Belshazzar Killed Gentile Rulers Judged
B ch.6, The Lions Den God's People in Tribulation
A ch.7,The Four Beasts 4 Gentile Empires

The four empires in the great image are the same as the four empires of the four beasts, foretelling who would control the holy land during “the time of the Gentiles.” The fiery furnace and the lion’s den are both about God’s chosen people in tribulation during the “time of the Gentiles.” Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar being judged are still future, symbolic of God’s final judgment on those who desecrated his Temple Mount and made His people suffer.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#2
Please continue!
 
Oct 22, 2011
628
7
18
#3
In Daniel 12:4, God tells Daniel to “seal and conceal the words of this book.” in Daniel 12:9, we read, “these words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end.”
This explains alot.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#4
I am understanding the first chiasm so far.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#5
Let's bump this interessting subject back to the top.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#6
The worrying things is i have read you talk about "rag heads" and standing shoulder to shoulder with Israel.

Your agenda does not include "Love thy enemies"

You are trying to gather people to battle the disobedient for the disobedient.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#7
The worrying things is i have read you talk about "rag heads" and standing shoulder to shoulder with Israel. Your agenda does not include "Love thy enemies" You are trying to gather people to battle the disobedient for the disobedient.
My dear, I do not hate Muslims, they are just people deceived by Satan, but I do hate Islam, the religion by which they are deceived.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#8
My dear, I do not hate Muslims, they are just people deceived by Satan, but I do hate Islam, the religion by which they are deceived.
If muslims are deceived by satan then who is "Israel" the nation deceived by?
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#9
If muslims are deceived by satan then who is "Israel" the nation deceived by?
I am just about to give up. <sigh> I couldn't care less what people think of me, but it's really a sad think when people don't believe the Bible I quote, no matter how many times I quote it. The Jews are not deceived, they have been spiritually blinded and made enemys of the Gospel by sovereign God, Romans 11:8 and 11:28-29 . . .

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day."

"As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#10
I am just about to give up. <sigh> I couldn't care less about what people think of me, but it's really a sad think when people don't believe the Bible I quote, no matter how many times I quote it. The Jews are not deceived, they have been spiritually blinded and made enemys of the Gospel by sovereign God, Romans 11:8 and 11:28-29 . . .

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day."

"As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
That is just it Ellis i don't think bad of you i see a man that studies much and knows his stuff but his agenda is blinding him.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#11
That is just it Ellis i don't think bad of you i see a man that studies much and knows his stuff but his agenda is blinding him.
I have no agenda but to serve the Lord, as I have been for most of my life, full time for the last 35 years. I taught my first Bible study in 1952, but I thank you for your correction.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#12
Zechariah 11

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of theLord.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#13
I have no agenda but to serve the Lord, as I have been for most of my life, full time for the last 35 years. I taught my first class in 1952, but I thank you for your correction.
What if you were in error?
 
D

doulos

Guest
#14
That is just it Ellis i don't think bad of you i see a man that studies much and knows his stuff but his agenda is blinding him.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
May I ask how you explain, how an enemy of the gospel can be elect? Doesn't one have to be born again to be elect?
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#16
Rom 11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
May I ask how you explain, how an enemy of the gospel can be elect? Doesn't one have to be born again to be elect?
I didn't write those verses, God did, so you have to decide whether you are going to believe God or not..
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#17
Rom 11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
May I ask how you explain, how an enemy of the gospel can be elect? Doesn't one have to be born again to be elect?
Or is one born again because they are the elect?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#19
I never read in the Bible that we are to make physical war by taking up a weapon against islam.

We are children of peace.

Our battle is Spiritual.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#20
Or is one born again because they are the elect?
Jews have been blinded to the Gospel, but God keeps His everlasting covenant with them through the Old Testament. Old Testament believers are born again like Christians are. Salvation, being born again, isn't based on having the right doctrine, but on having a humble and contrite heart before God.