Daniel's 1st Chiasm

[Abiding]

We both know the elect are God's chosen they are chosen because they have faith and believe God. Please share what your opinion is on how one can be an enemy of the gospel and still be elect.

Not in the context. Elect in this context is differed by the word remnant.
And you cant confuse the two without causing misunderstandings.

There is the elect as in Israel(oldcovenant) that pertains to special priviledge, (rom 9:4-8) a people special to God externally.(saved/unsaved)

Then there is the election according to grace(remnant) the seed, the believers In the Messiah.

Unbelieving Israel was "enemies" of God, and to the gospel hating and denying Jesus Christ.
For the sake of the Gentiles to be given the gospel (election according to grace)

And "beloved" for the elect Of Israel (not saved but the outward priviledge given to them as Gods special people)
for the sake of the fathers who were given the promises, the gospel fulfilled,

Its a done deal. There is no application for this at this time. The gentiles have come in.

You cant in this context say everytime the word elect or election is used that it means "believers"
because it doesnt.

 

[loveme1]

One must read all of Romans 11 because at the start one can see who the elect and remnant are that would receive grace that is available then to Jew or Gentile alike by Grace and not works.

A remnant remained who had not bowed to the image of baal.

It was this remnant that would believe and spread the Good News for all.

 

[Abiding]

That does not answer the questions I asked. I understand the doctrine you cling to does not address this issue so all you can do is dance instead of answering the questions. Thanks for trying though.

 

[loveme1]

One may fall off his horse watching me dance would maybe startle a horse....

 

[doulos]

One must read all of Romans 11 because at the start one can see who the elect and remnant are that would receive grace that is available then to Jew or Gentile alike by Grace and not works.

A remnant remained who had not bowed to the image of baal.

It was this remnant that would believe and spread the Good News for all.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
You still have not explained how one that is elect (born again) can be an enemy of the gospel.

 

[Laodicea]

For that to be true, Daniel would have had to forget everything he knew about Babylonian court protocol. Also, the visions of the great image and the four beasts had already been given so we cannot make a blanket statement that Daniel was referring to the vision of chapter 8.

Daniel 9:23 KJV
(23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Which vision is the angel referring to? There is no vision in Daniel 9.
Daniel 8:26 KJV
(26) And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

The vision of the 2300 days was not explained in Daniel 8. The last thing mentioned in Daniel 8 is on time and the first thing mentioned in Daniel 9 is on time.
Daniel 9:24 KJV
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.


The word determine means cut off. The 70 week prophecy is cut off from a larger portion of time prophecy.

If you insist to say Daniel 9 was written before Daniel 8 then you have to explain what the 70 week prophecy is a part of? You have to explain what the 70 prophecy is cut off from.

 

[loveme1]

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
You still have not explained how one that is elect (born again) can be an enemy of the gospel.

To be born again one is no longer an enemy of the Gospel for it is through the Gospel one is born again.

We may have misunderstood one another in an earlier conversation?

Please elaborate?

 

[Therapon]

Not in the context. Elect in this context is differed by the word remnant.
And you cant confuse the two without causing misunderstandings.

There is the elect as in Israel(oldcovenant) that pertains to special priviledge, (rom 9:4-8) a people special to God externally.(saved/unsaved)

Then there is the election according to grace(remnant) the seed, the believers In the Messiah.

Unbelieving Israel was "enemies" of God, and to the gospel hating and denying Jesus Christ.
For the sake of the Gentiles to be given the gospel (election according to grace)

And "beloved" for the elect Of Israel (not saved but the outward priviledge given to them as Gods special people)
for the sake of the fathers who were given the promises, the gospel fulfilled,

Its a done deal. There is no application for this at this time. The gentiles have come in.

You cant in this context say everytime the word elect or election is used that it means "believers"
because it doesnt.

The same old double-speak. I once asked a therologian what Romans 11:28-29 ment. His reply, "I don't know, but it doesn't mean what it says." But a nice flowery way to make ekloge fit a doctrine. <smile>

 

[Abiding]

The same old double-speak. I once asked a therologian what Romans 11:28-29 meant. His reply, "I don't know, but it doesn't mean what it says." But a nice flowery way to make ekloge fit a doctrine. <smile>

Explain, where did i double speak?

If you dont know the difference between Israel elected as a special priviledged nation and election according to grace
wonder why youd write books about it/

 

[loveme1]

The time elapsed is many, many years and could mean Israel is far and wide.

The Lost sheep are only led Home by the Good Shepherd.

 

[Therapon]

Explain, where did i double speak?

To imply that election for the Jewish enemies of the Gospel in these verses means something different than election for the saints elsewhere.

 

[loveme1]

Consider the persecution that those who believed the Gospel faced.

I gave an example of what happened to Stephen he spoke only truth and was stoned.

Even after being hurt he asked they be not charged for their behaviour.

Is that not an example of beloved for the Father's sake?

Paul who was often beat did not persecute but continued to labour in love spreading the Gospel.

 

[Abiding]

To imply that election for the Jewish enemies of the Gospel in these verses means something different than election for the saints elsewhere.

your the one messing things up. I didnt say anything like that.
I said the word election is not always a reference to believers.
Maybe you have double vision.

But no Israel was elect as a special people and nation OK? get it? And they were not all saved. Right? ok?

And at other times the word elect may be a term used as a believer elect according to grace..In Christ 11:5

And again may refer to election as far as Israels positional priviledge 11:28

 

[SarahM777]

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
So are you saying one can be elect without faith and not believe? What do they believe that makes them elect, yet still allows them to be an enemy of the gospel

Elect Definition - Merriam Webster

1 : carefully selected

2
: chosen for salvation through divine mercy

3
a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed <the president-elect>
b : chosen for marriage at some future time <the bride-elect>

All elect means in that spot is that they were chosen by the Father no more,no less. Does not mean they choose God.

 

[Abiding]

can a man write books and think hes the next best thing since the new testament was written
and not even understand differences in word usages? well the answer must be yes.

 

[loveme1]

John 3

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[SUP]16[/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For John was not yet cast into prison.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]He must increase, but I must decrease.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[SUP]36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Therapon]

your the one messing things up. I didnt say anything like that.
I said the word election is not always a reference to believers.
Maybe you have double vision.

But no Israel was elect as a special people and nation OK? get it? And they were not all saved. Right? ok?

And at other times the word elect may be a term used as a believer elect according to grace..In Christ 11:5

And again may refer to election as far as Israels positional priviledge 11:28

If that was not the intent of your post, then I misunderstood you. Sorry.

Salvation for both the OT Jew and and NT Gentile is by graced through faith, doctrine has nothing to do with salvation. One can have almost perfect knowlwdge and still be lost or virtually no knowledge and and still belong to the Lord.. To paraphrase from 1 Sam 16, "Man looketh upon the doctrine, the Lord looketh upon the heart." Salvation depends on having a humble and repentant heart towards God, not on having the right doctrine or saying the right words.

 

[cfultz3]

Well, the MSS from Qumran is a single scroll, the conservative Jewish sages accept the book as a single scroll, the various visions are in their present order and they accept Daniel himself as the single author. We're really pushing it if we try to propose something else.

Since it is a single scroll then I can accept that Daniel is in the order Daniel intended. Thanks