Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .

[eternally-gratefull]

The difference between living under grace and living under condemnation of law. You be the judge.

"Only God is perfect all the time. But we can walk before him and be perfect when not sinning, and meeting He's requirement when we fall short."

"Your doomed if you think you can obey Gods commands in a way worthy of being saved"
​

This bolded sentence makes no sense whatsoever..

The law required perfection. Thats gods word.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

All things mean all things, period!! You can't water down Gods word to make you think you are being obedient to any other standard. this is Gods standard.. and the ONLY ONE that matters.

 

[PeterJens]

The accusation of hyper-grace is "Are you perfect then?"

And the answer is yes. Jesus said following Him was perfection.

"Be Holy" "The holy should remain holy" "Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God."

Now lost sinners find this language impossible. And those tormented by a hyper sensitive
conscience or hyper-legalism will never accept the Lord accepts them.

So as we walk after being cleansed we are perfect, holy, pure.

But these guys want to say we are hypocrites and sinners, deluded. But when asked what
sin is being commited and where is the delusion, they fall silent.

This sounds like satan running around accusing the brethren of sin that is not there.
And when you ask them about their lives, they will openly declare they sin all the time, cannot
go a day or hour without sin.

Now if a man says to follow God you will not abide in sin, yet confesses openly that they sin,
that must mean they are not following God. Why should we listen to such a double minded man?

The problem is they follow a faith that is not from scripture and is why scripture condemns
such a position. It is really that simple.

If I am wrong, please show me, I am open and honest, and truly love you and desire you walk
in love and purity with the Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grace believers teach we are perfect because of Christ. Again, People prove they do not understand us. by saying we do not believe this..

A grace person follows Christ because he has been forgiven, Not to be forgiven.

David was a man after Gods heart, because he understand Gods unconditional love and mercy towards him always.. That is the kind of attitude we should have.

Obedience (true) comes from gratitude and faith. Not out of obligation.

 

[PeterJens]

Got to laugh. A rusty wreck of a car is a perfect new car because you put a picture
of the new car in front of it.

No. It is still a rusty wreck of a car.

Now the above description 100% is what they believe. It is neither a slander or a lie.

The real difference is about can a wreck be made whole again and see for real to be happening.
It has always been the fruit of new birth, your life changes.

Now these people will always miss-represent the gospel because over the simplest points they cannot
be honest.

The best they can say is we sin, but we want to be good and Christ makes us good by imputing His
goodness to us ( think picture over the top of the wreck )

In their mind they accept these words are acceptable to God. Repentance is not walking in righteousness
it is just agreeing things are bad. There is no point at reforming because you will never be righteous, even
in communion with Christ.

The real point is sinless. Can you be washed clean from sin and therefore be clean? They answer no.
We say yes you are, but you may sin in the future, though your intention is not, only God knows.

 

[PeterJens]

I have to correct my illustration

Rusty wreck of a car, with a mini new car put inside it, born straight from the heaven factory.
So the mini car is everything heavenly and the rusty wreck is the flesh.

The idea is the wreck disappears as you understand you are the new mini car from heaven.
Trouble is the wreck never disappears because that is you with unresolved sin and issues in your life
and the new mini car never actually existed.

Because issues are never resolved this becomes christianity without morals or boundaries.
They will say they have morals and boundaries but can never define them, because they destroyed
the definitions. For them it becomes self evil, Christ good, which sounds meaningful except it
goes no deeper than this. It is just mysticism under a different name.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The difference between 'grace believers' (e.g, Free Grace, hyper grace) and believers in the lord Jesus Christ is that the former believe they are already perfect in nature (therefore obedience is not required for perfection) and the latter believe that they are being perfected through obedience.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 1 Peter 5:10​

Even Jesus was perfected through obedience

For it was fitting for him for whom [are] all [things] and through whom [are] all [things] in bringing many sons to glory to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Got to laugh. A rusty wreck of a car is a perfect new car because you put a picture
of the new car in front of it.

No. It is still a rusty wreck of a car.

Now the above description 100% is what they believe. It is neither a slander or a lie.

Its both a slander and a lie because it is much deeper than just a picture,

We believe that God sandblasted all the rust off. And gave it a nice new paint job, even added a SEAL to it so it would never rust again.

I love ya peter. But I pray you start trying to understand what people believe.. You would stop doing things like this.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I have to correct my illustration

Rusty wreck of a car, with a mini new car put inside it, born straight from the heaven factory.
So the mini car is everything heavenly and the rusty wreck is the flesh.

The idea is the wreck disappears as you understand you are the new mini car from heaven.
Trouble is the wreck never disappears because that is you with unresolved sin and issues in your life
and the new mini car never actually existed.

Because issues are never resolved this becomes christianity without morals or boundaries.
They will say they have morals and boundaries but can never define them, because they destroyed
the definitions. For them it becomes self evil, Christ good, which sounds meaningful except it
goes no deeper than this. It is just mysticism under a different name.

Even if the mini cooper does exist inside the heap, it can't do anything. All the driver can do is sit at the wheel imagining that he is going places.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The best they can say is we sin, but we want to be good and Christ makes us good by imputing His goodness to us ( think picture over the top of the wreck )

You might want to pray about this word usage. Maybe it goes deeper than that, I don't know.

GOD does impute his righteousness to us. That's what the book says. A credit, so to speak.

False grace takes this too far to say that GOD actually makes us his righteousness. An infusion, so to speak.

 

[Grace777x70]

The difference between 'grace believers' (e.g, Free Grace, hyper grace) and believers in the lord Jesus Christ is that the former believe they are already perfect in nature (therefore obedience is not required for perfection) and the latter believe that they are being perfected through obedience.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 1 Peter 5:10​

Even Jesus was perfected through obedience

For it was fitting for him for whom [are] all [things] and through whom [are] all [things] in bringing many sons to glory to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10​

What you are confusing is the fact that Christ has made us perfect in our spirit - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We do need to have this life in our spirit reflect in our outward lives and this is done by the Spirit of God and we are transformed by having our minds renewed to the truth that is in Christ.

When you die....you will not all of a sudden have a quick cleaning up of some sort in order to be qualified for heaven. Your true self will be with the Lord. You are "heaven ready" now in your spirit.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

( he has perfected is in the perfect tense which means a one time event in the past that has continuous results today )

Hebrews 12:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

( made perfect = perfect passive = is in the perfect tense which means a one time event in the past that has continuous results today - passive means that it is something done to us - we are not doing it )


Paul says to "work" out our salvation which is already in us in Christ. Phil 2:12-13 and as we grow in the Lord - His life in us will be manifested outwardly.

It is a matter of growing into what already is in the spirit. We are perfected in our spirits because we are in Christ and now we have to grow in that in our outward behavior and lives.

We believe that we have been perfected by grace through faith in Christ. People that say they are perfected by their own work of obedience are in effect denying the Lord to create their own works-righteousness. Romans 5:19 shows it's by the obedience of Christ that we have righteousness.

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[Grace777x70]

You might want to pray about this word usage. Maybe it goes deeper than that, I don't know.

GOD does impute his righteousness to us. That's what the book says. A credit, so to speak.

False grace takes this too far to say that GOD actually makes us his righteousness. An infusion, so to speak.

nonsense.....Christ became our righteousness ( I know you have a need to create your own but it is NOT the gospel of Christ )

can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

 

[Grace777x70]

You might want to pray about this word usage. Maybe it goes deeper than that, I don't know.

GOD does impute his righteousness to us. That's what the book says. A credit, so to speak.

False grace takes this too far to say that GOD actually makes us his righteousness. An infusion, so to speak.

Here is another one revealing that our righteousness is of Him. This is where the gospel of the grace of Christ is a mystery people that need to "maintain" their own righteousness. They are in unbelief of Christ's righteousness and so are trying to establish their own.

Romans 10:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.


Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

Isaiah 54:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

 

[garee]

Sanctification- 'Faith without works is dead' in James. The context of this in James 2 is about acts of daily service. Not about how someone is given eternal life.

Whose faith without works? Surely not the mutual faith of Christ that works in all believers.His work of faith satisfied the just commands of His law.

The context is in respect to the generator of faith (God) the one that gives us His understand (not seen) as the one who finished the promised work of faith, as his 3 day labor of love.

If we have the faith of Christ as that which comes exclusively of the Lord of glory in respect to persons to include our own selves .We have blasphemed the holy name we are called by... by violating the first commandment. Having others or oneself as a god before him.

Jam 2:1..My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.(us)

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?Jam 2:1

Faith works two ways. His towards us as the hearing of faith by which we receive the Holy Spirit as the first work of God in us. and our faith that recognizes we have heard His voice as amen to hearing his voice directed towards Him. having the later our faith towards him is to turn things upside down as did the apostate Jews. It takes away His understanding.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

I would think the warning found in Hebrews 6 in respect to the faith we have towards him would apply. Seeing the alternative would be to crucify the Lord of glory over and over as if one demonstration of him pouring out His Spirit life as if it was blood was not enough.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of “faith toward God” ,Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment .And this will we do, “if” God permit. Heb 6:1

 

[popeye]

Both. Also if you are obedient to Christ you are obedient to the Torah as he has commanded.

You are getting closer.

Looks like we had a major impact on you.See what you did? The law becomes a benefit,instead of a game changer

God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

You might want to pray about this word usage. Maybe it goes deeper than that, I don't know.
GOD does impute his righteousness to us. That's what the book says. A credit, so to speak.
False grace takes this too far to say that GOD actually makes us his righteousness. An infusion, so to speak.

I agree we do have imputed righteousness, which is based on our relationship with God through Christ. This washes us clean and makes us Holy.

But a rusty car is still a rusty car, but is ready for rebuild through healing and obedience.

As others have demonstrated they believe the car is rebuilt without their involvement. This is where
they fall down implying that seeing the state of the car and its failings is irrelevant, which we would
call this part of sanctification and getting things right.

There is no problems with weakness or problems, it is sin that destroys, the rest we can work with Christ on.

 

[popeye]

OK,ST,Without using the word torah,how do we witness to the lost?

Exactly what would you tell them?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What you are confusing is the fact that Christ has made us perfect in our spirit - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We do need to have this life in our spirit reflect in our outward lives and this is done by the Spirit of God and we are transformed by having our minds renewed to the truth that is in Christ.

Yeah, big deal. You're not perfect, though. Just imagining you are doesn't make it so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to correct my illustration

Rusty wreck of a car, with a mini new car put inside it, born straight from the heaven factory.
So the mini car is everything heavenly and the rusty wreck is the flesh.

The idea is the wreck disappears as you understand you are the new mini car from heaven.
Trouble is the wreck never disappears because that is you with unresolved sin and issues in your life
and the new mini car never actually existed.

Because issues are never resolved this becomes christianity without morals or boundaries.
They will say they have morals and boundaries but can never define them, because they destroyed
the definitions. For them it becomes self evil, Christ good, which sounds meaningful except it
goes no deeper than this. It is just mysticism under a different name.

Ya still don't get it. Not even close

Like to try again? Maybe you should stop trying to use examples? Or maybe not.. Actually it helps us understand what you really think..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The difference between 'grace believers' (e.g, Free Grace, hyper grace) and believers in the lord Jesus Christ is that the former believe they are already perfect in nature (therefore obedience is not required for perfection) and the latter believe that they are being perfected through obedience.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. 1 Peter 5:10​

Even Jesus was perfected through obedience

For it was fitting for him for whom [are] all [things] and through whom [are] all [things] in bringing many sons to glory to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10​

This person does not get it either.. more prove of misunderstanding of what people actually teach..

No matter who you are, and no matter what you believe. Obedience will NEVER make you perfect. unless it made you sinless. If it could. then the law is all we needed, Christ died in vein

 

[Grace777x70]

Yeah, big deal. You're not perfect, though. Just imagining you are doesn't make it so.

Amen....Christ having done things for us by His blood and life is a "very big deal!" to us that believe.

...and we allowing the Spirit of God to work out what is already in us in Christ and this is a wonderful adventure.

Being born again is not imaginary. Being a new creation in Christ is not imaginary. I know you don't believe people are born again until they get new bodies from the Lord and thus all this is confusing and a mystery. I'm trusting the Lord that you'll see the gospel and walk in the freedom that is in Christ as you do have a certain type of zeal for the Lord.