Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .
- Thread starter JGIG
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The commandments and covenants of God were taught from Adam all the way to moses. Also Enoch walked with God for 300 years, and God took him. Noah he's descendant walked righteously before God and obeyed Gods voice also. They would have instructed their family line in Gods will and pass it on to the next generation. This can also be read in books like the book of jasher (the upright), the book of jubilees and the book of Enoch. You can see in genesis these people having been instructed in offering sacrifices to God and knew the difference between clean and unclean animals.
Which verses?
Please provide the verse here and explain what you mean - I read it and am not clear about what you're trying to convey.
Also please show us in Acts where the Apostles conclude that believers are to live under the Law.
Note that all Scripture is valuable for teaching - that does not mean that everything in Scripture applies to the believer in Christ. A couple of easy things to discern would be that we aren't out there building arks in our backyards (well, except for Ken Ham, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax, ha) or offering sacrifices, etc. for example.
Actually, that's exactly what Grace is! No matter what you've done, Jesus paid the price. He qualifies you and gives you the gifts of His forgiveness, His righteousness, and His New Life - eternal life. That's not your life made longer, but His eternal life put within you as a gift. You enter in by Grace through Faith in Christ.
Grace teaches us . . . but grace is never a means by which we are to keep the Old Covenant Law. Where grace lets us mess up and still live, Law condemns and is a ministry of death. Grace never disqualifies those who are in Christ and are qualified in Him, because in Christ, God is not holding our sins against us (see 2 Cor. 5:18-19), but the Law always disqualifies, because under the Law, God has to hold man's sins against them.
People who don't believe in Christ are condemned already because they do not believe in Christ. But it's not their sins that condemn them, but their unbelief.
And you're right - grace is not merely a 'cover-all' - grace was manifested in the Work of Christ to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness for those who believe. The Law has nothing to do with it. Faith in Christ has everything to do with it!
Are there lots of behavior passages in the New Testament? You bet! But they are not a do/don't do or suffer eternal judgement system of Law, they are exhortations on how to live in this life. And you won't find feast or day keeping or dietary laws, animal sacrifices, stonings, or instuctions in purification rituals, which are all components of the Law.
And counterintuitively, Law actually stirs up sinning, it doesn't keep anyone from sinning - that's why Galatians says we who are led by the Spirit are not under the Law, and then goes on to list what the Fruit that the Spirit produces, and states that against those things there is no law.
We as believers need to be careful to not mix the Old and the New, which inevitably leads to confusion and doubts about the sufficiency of the Work of Christ and His ability to save us completely (see Heb. 7).
-JGIG
Please provide the verse here and explain what you mean - I read it and am not clear about what you're trying to convey.
Also please show us in Acts where the Apostles conclude that believers are to live under the Law.
Note that all Scripture is valuable for teaching - that does not mean that everything in Scripture applies to the believer in Christ. A couple of easy things to discern would be that we aren't out there building arks in our backyards (well, except for Ken Ham, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax, ha) or offering sacrifices, etc. for example.
Actually, that's exactly what Grace is! No matter what you've done, Jesus paid the price. He qualifies you and gives you the gifts of His forgiveness, His righteousness, and His New Life - eternal life. That's not your life made longer, but His eternal life put within you as a gift. You enter in by Grace through Faith in Christ.
Grace teaches us . . . but grace is never a means by which we are to keep the Old Covenant Law. Where grace lets us mess up and still live, Law condemns and is a ministry of death. Grace never disqualifies those who are in Christ and are qualified in Him, because in Christ, God is not holding our sins against us (see 2 Cor. 5:18-19), but the Law always disqualifies, because under the Law, God has to hold man's sins against them.
People who don't believe in Christ are condemned already because they do not believe in Christ. But it's not their sins that condemn them, but their unbelief.
And you're right - grace is not merely a 'cover-all' - grace was manifested in the Work of Christ to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness for those who believe. The Law has nothing to do with it. Faith in Christ has everything to do with it!
Are there lots of behavior passages in the New Testament? You bet! But they are not a do/don't do or suffer eternal judgement system of Law, they are exhortations on how to live in this life. And you won't find feast or day keeping or dietary laws, animal sacrifices, stonings, or instuctions in purification rituals, which are all components of the Law.
And counterintuitively, Law actually stirs up sinning, it doesn't keep anyone from sinning - that's why Galatians says we who are led by the Spirit are not under the Law, and then goes on to list what the Fruit that the Spirit produces, and states that against those things there is no law.
We as believers need to be careful to not mix the Old and the New, which inevitably leads to confusion and doubts about the sufficiency of the Work of Christ and His ability to save us completely (see Heb. 7).
-JGIG
I am in the body of Christ and am obedient to the commandments.
You don't sacrifice animals as the Law requires.
-JGIG
How can you claim obedience to the Old Covenant if you are not doing the things that the Old Covenant requires?
And allowing for a language issue (I see that your nationality is Norwegian and that you are in Norway), I have to ask, what is 'repentance through faith by Christ'? Could you please provide a Scripture for that or correct the way it's worded so I can understand what precisely you're saying there? Thanks
.-JGIG
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Illustrating the difference between justification with thing not dependent on our behaviour and then then sanctification with things dependent on our reliance on Christ daily..
John 3:16.. 5:24.. John 10:28.. Ephesians 2 vs 8-9- some justification verses. This is Christ delivering someone permanently and giving them eternal life. Place in heaven set. His payment justifying them. No works from the person.. the salvation is not a commitment to turn from sin but an acknowledgment you are a dirty rotten sinner and need saving.
Sanctification- 'Faith without works is dead' in James.
The context of this in James 2 is about acts of daily service. Not about how someone is given eternal life.
There are a whole heap of verses you can compare with. Looking at the initial act of being given eternal life.. salvation, and then what God wants of us in our daily walk.
One is not dependent on the other.
John 3:16.. 5:24.. John 10:28.. Ephesians 2 vs 8-9- some justification verses. This is Christ delivering someone permanently and giving them eternal life. Place in heaven set. His payment justifying them. No works from the person.. the salvation is not a commitment to turn from sin but an acknowledgment you are a dirty rotten sinner and need saving.
Sanctification- 'Faith without works is dead' in James.
The context of this in James 2 is about acts of daily service. Not about how someone is given eternal life.
There are a whole heap of verses you can compare with. Looking at the initial act of being given eternal life.. salvation, and then what God wants of us in our daily walk.
One is not dependent on the other.
The hyper-grace group have a problem in their dispensation theology. They believe the law only showed failure, and the sacrifice system never resolved anything. They call this religion or legalism.
I would hold a relationship with God through faith in God in obedience to the law and sacrifices was equally possible as through faith in Christ and obedience to His commands. The first was the shadow of the second. The message has always been have communion with me and who I am, and you will be friends with God, and He will bless you. Obeying the law has always been possible but without relationship is worthless.
God chose a point in history where one man could change the world through the roman empire, with only 3 years of ministry and 12 disciples. And the message is long, vast, difficult to comprehend, from civil law, penal law, health considerations, religious authority, faith, obedience, sacrifices, prophets etc. The rights of judgement, one people over another, slavery, freedom, debt, redemption.
When you listen to hyper-grace you would think this is all irrelevant, only there to show man could never be holy or righteous. The high priest could be holy, and could enter the Holy of Holies.
So much of their argument is putting their desire of compromise of holiness by over playing grace and forgiveness that nothing is left. It is why it is a different faith, with its own mystical theology, similar in language but different in outcomes.
I would hold a relationship with God through faith in God in obedience to the law and sacrifices was equally possible as through faith in Christ and obedience to His commands. The first was the shadow of the second. The message has always been have communion with me and who I am, and you will be friends with God, and He will bless you. Obeying the law has always been possible but without relationship is worthless.
God chose a point in history where one man could change the world through the roman empire, with only 3 years of ministry and 12 disciples. And the message is long, vast, difficult to comprehend, from civil law, penal law, health considerations, religious authority, faith, obedience, sacrifices, prophets etc. The rights of judgement, one people over another, slavery, freedom, debt, redemption.
When you listen to hyper-grace you would think this is all irrelevant, only there to show man could never be holy or righteous. The high priest could be holy, and could enter the Holy of Holies.
So much of their argument is putting their desire of compromise of holiness by over playing grace and forgiveness that nothing is left. It is why it is a different faith, with its own mystical theology, similar in language but different in outcomes.
If this is your faith, it is not following Christ.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thes 4:7
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1 Peter 1:15-16
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:21
The verses above must be lies, if you hold the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not bring about
purity, cleansing, righteousness and holiness in the believer.
We are made pure and righteous, but if we continue to sin and ignore this washing our faith is nothing
and salvation does not exist.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thes 4:7
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1 Peter 1:15-16
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:21
The verses above must be lies, if you hold the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not bring about
purity, cleansing, righteousness and holiness in the believer.
We are made pure and righteous, but if we continue to sin and ignore this washing our faith is nothing
and salvation does not exist.
A different faith, a faith of the mystics
Some believe they are two people, a pure perfect heart born of heaven and the flesh or sinful nature born of this earth.
The language appears the same, but the difference is there is no desire or goal to walk in purity.
The love expressed through the cross is irrelevant, it is imputed righteousness and a free ticked to heaven
is all that matters. There are no pure perfect people redeemed to stand before the King,
there is only failed lost sinners who are imagined as whole because of Christ.
This is a sad parody of salvation and Gods people as to be laughable.
Time and again God reserves His people in righteousness, people like Nathanael
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
John 1:47
The cross is hard, but purity is real and possible.
"Let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:11
Some believe they are two people, a pure perfect heart born of heaven and the flesh or sinful nature born of this earth.
The language appears the same, but the difference is there is no desire or goal to walk in purity.
The love expressed through the cross is irrelevant, it is imputed righteousness and a free ticked to heaven
is all that matters. There are no pure perfect people redeemed to stand before the King,
there is only failed lost sinners who are imagined as whole because of Christ.
This is a sad parody of salvation and Gods people as to be laughable.
Time and again God reserves His people in righteousness, people like Nathanael
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
John 1:47
The cross is hard, but purity is real and possible.
"Let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:11
E
lol.. Your doomed if you think you can obey Gods commands in a way worthy of being saved, The pharisee thought that also.
You need to put obedience in its proper perspective, and get the legalistic do this or else flavor out of your gospel. For it is no gospel at all..
Scripture is clear. A child of God will obey, It is what is a characteristic of being born of God. A child of God can not live in sin, That is what scripture says..
So please.. Don't try to put a burden even the jews could not manage, on others. Because no one, and I mean NO ONE can live up to your standard..
We need grace, because we still sin, If we could be perfect. We would no longer need grace,
You need to put obedience in its proper perspective, and get the legalistic do this or else flavor out of your gospel. For it is no gospel at all..
Scripture is clear. A child of God will obey, It is what is a characteristic of being born of God. A child of God can not live in sin, That is what scripture says..
So please.. Don't try to put a burden even the jews could not manage, on others. Because no one, and I mean NO ONE can live up to your standard..
We need grace, because we still sin, If we could be perfect. We would no longer need grace,
The difference between living under grace and living under condemnation of law. You be the judge.
"Only God is perfect all the time. But we can walk before him and be perfect when not sinning, and meeting He's requirement when we fall short."
"Your doomed if you think you can obey Gods commands in a way worthy of being saved"
"Your doomed if you think you can obey Gods commands in a way worthy of being saved"
E
some people are still at it calling people names.. I guess it will never end. Oh it was so nice having peace for a week.
The law required perfection If one failed. the curse was pronounced, the curse was passed to the animal at the sacrifice.. This is called the day of atonement, or redemption.. The price of redemption was the life of the one being slaughtered.
Otherwise, the sin would have been left to the person who committed it. and they would have suffered the curse.
These people who want to add law to grace, water the law down, They only demand you obey parts of it,, The rest of it no longer applies. Stay away from these people. Pray for the, that they see the light..
As for the dispensational comment, Again people. please ask a person who follows it, some people prove daily they do not understand what it is, So your not going to get any information which is helpful to understand it, unless you ask someone who believes it.
Dispensationalism has nothing to do with shunning the law.. That's nothing but a strawman.
The law required perfection If one failed. the curse was pronounced, the curse was passed to the animal at the sacrifice.. This is called the day of atonement, or redemption.. The price of redemption was the life of the one being slaughtered.
Otherwise, the sin would have been left to the person who committed it. and they would have suffered the curse.
These people who want to add law to grace, water the law down, They only demand you obey parts of it,, The rest of it no longer applies. Stay away from these people. Pray for the, that they see the light..
As for the dispensational comment, Again people. please ask a person who follows it, some people prove daily they do not understand what it is, So your not going to get any information which is helpful to understand it, unless you ask someone who believes it.
Dispensationalism has nothing to do with shunning the law.. That's nothing but a strawman.