Well, I think I've said all I have to say on it, PB. I said I was okay with you just setting aside the parts you didn't understand, weren't ready for, couldn't handle, or for whatever reason. I personally don't set them aside though. I read job and satan asking to sift him and to sift peter and it is a comfort to me that he has to get permission to touch me or sift me or harass me. It's one of the greatest comforts i have to know He guides my every step and His eye is always on me. I don't want to traumatize anyone or take their comfort from them or harm their trust or bully them to grow up faster than they can bear yet, but neither will I let them bully from me my own comfort in God or turn me from what He's taught me or from sharing what I've learned.
Death and Dying, part deux
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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How could it be meaningless when we are told He was tempted just as we are? What did He overcome if not sin and death, by not giving in to temptation, thereby refraining from sinning when tempted?
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Hebrews 4:1
It was meaningful to the Tempter (or to any ordinary human being), but it was meaningless to God manifest in the flesh. As to Heb 4:15, it needs to be interpreted properly and I will quote the KJV, since it is closer to the truth.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: chóris
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rece')
Short Definition: apart from, without
Definition: apart from, separately from; without.
The focus should be on apart from, separately from.
So what that verse says is that Jesus was tempted as we are BUT apart from or separate from sin. What that means is that He was the SINLESS Son of God, and did not have a sin nature inherited from Adam. Hence those temptations had no impact on His holy soul.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Strong's Concordance
chóris: separately, separate from
Original Word: χωρίςPart of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: chóris
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rece')
Short Definition: apart from, without
Definition: apart from, separately from; without.
The focus should be on apart from, separately from.
So what that verse says is that Jesus was tempted as we are BUT apart from or separate from sin. What that means is that He was the SINLESS Son of God, and did not have a sin nature inherited from Adam. Hence those temptations had no impact on His holy soul.
Thank you for explaining. Yet, are we not given to understand that Jesus is/was able to empathize with us because He was exposed to temptation just as we are? If you render it meaningless because He was/is God in the flesh and God cannot be tempted, what then of His humanity? It seems the text is saying He can empathize with our weakness specifically because temptation had meaning to Him personally, though He overcame it, triumphed over it. Certainly we are in agreement that He is, was, and forever shall remain sinless 
I said: Does that mean that he can run amuck? NO, Christian's prayers, love and stance upon the word given to them to fight the spiritual battle hinders what he can do.
Who the heck do Christian's pray to? Why wouldn't we expect God to answer our prayers? We pray for healing, for help in times of trouble, we pray for many, many different things. This is a spiritual battle - remember?
After telling us to put on the whole armor of God to stand against the devil's schemes, listing each part of the armor - we are told: And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people.
Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever
Who the heck do Christian's pray to? Why wouldn't we expect God to answer our prayers? We pray for healing, for help in times of trouble, we pray for many, many different things. This is a spiritual battle - remember?
After telling us to put on the whole armor of God to stand against the devil's schemes, listing each part of the armor - we are told: And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people.
Yes, Jesus came to give us life - abundant life. NOT rape, murder, disease, hate, etc. Those things are the result of the fall, the result of mankind's continued disobedience to God and we live in a world in which the devil is in control - if I am to believe what is written.
Does that mean
that he can run amuck? No, Christian's prayers, love and stance upon the word given to them to fight the spiritual battle hinders what he can do.
There is a shocking amount of wisdom here. It will probably just be glossed over.
Not only are we, as you say, using feeble human words to try to grasp and explain Gods' ways and judgements, we are doing so with a feeble and limited human mind. And even knowing of that mind that is feeble and far below the task of understanding God, we still do not hesitate (or even get a hinky feeling that maybe we should refrain) from, hurling accusations at others trying with their own feeble minds just as we are. As you say, it is so far above us and our capacity, that it would be the height of prudence to NOT act as we do with each other. But your post will be glossed over and trampled as worthless whn it is the most wisdom filled post this thread has yet had. But take heart fis - you have helped to remind me and I'm thankful.
Not only are we, as you say, using feeble human words to try to grasp and explain Gods' ways and judgements, we are doing so with a feeble and limited human mind. And even knowing of that mind that is feeble and far below the task of understanding God, we still do not hesitate (or even get a hinky feeling that maybe we should refrain) from, hurling accusations at others trying with their own feeble minds just as we are. As you say, it is so far above us and our capacity, that it would be the height of prudence to NOT act as we do with each other. But your post will be glossed over and trampled as worthless whn it is the most wisdom filled post this thread has yet had. But take heart fis - you have helped to remind me and I'm thankful.
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. 8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways.
Who is God speaking to: let the wicked forsake their ways . . . the unrighteous their thoughts - So nope Gods thoughts are not the thoughts of the unrighteous, nor are his ways the ways of the wicked.
God tells us: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children. Eph. 5:1 - that word "followers" means imitators - If we are to imitate God - we better know who he is.
We have the mind of Christ . . . we are not to be ignorant
Just saying
Who is God speaking to: let the wicked forsake their ways . . . the unrighteous their thoughts - So nope Gods thoughts are not the thoughts of the unrighteous, nor are his ways the ways of the wicked.
God tells us: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children. Eph. 5:1 - that word "followers" means imitators - If we are to imitate God - we better know who he is.
We have the mind of Christ . . . we are not to be ignorant
Just saying
I definitely believe in prayer!
But previously you put forth that God does not or cannot control or have control of evil done to us, because if He could stop some evil buffeting us and didnt, then He would be the author of evil and would have some fault for sins of satan or men. Now you are saying if we pray about it, He will hinder evil touching us or at least lessen it, in answer to our prayers. But how can He answer our prayers in something He has not got control over in order TO answer...?
But previously you put forth that God does not or cannot control or have control of evil done to us, because if He could stop some evil buffeting us and didnt, then He would be the author of evil and would have some fault for sins of satan or men. Now you are saying if we pray about it, He will hinder evil touching us or at least lessen it, in answer to our prayers. But how can He answer our prayers in something He has not got control over in order TO answer...?
Calvin is still the originator of Calvinism though.
Why call yourself a Calvinist if you disagree with the man?
Not you personally, but them. Seems counter-productive.
Yes, I think you have a point there
Are you saying Calvinism teaches that God is micromanaging everything? I am seeking clarity on this issue because it is a point of contention with the Calvinist.
Thank you for your response, Trofimus, it has been a pleasure as always My apologies for my tardy reply; I was having computer issues, and had two different devices on the go at one point, with my initial response lost when I went to post it because the token had expired Any ways, I am glad you have moved beyond Calvinism, as I agree, there are more loving theologies, superior understandings, and explanations. I do not think I have heard of Leibniz before. He sounds interesting and someone I may benefit from reading Thanks again for the recommendation!
Why call yourself a Calvinist if you disagree with the man?
Not you personally, but them. Seems counter-productive.
Yes, I think you have a point there
Are you saying Calvinism teaches that God is micromanaging everything? I am seeking clarity on this issue because it is a point of contention with the Calvinist.
Thank you for your response, Trofimus, it has been a pleasure as always
My apologies for my tardy reply; I was having computer issues, and had two different devices on the go at one point, with my initial response lost when I went to post it because the token had expired Any ways, I am glad you have moved beyond Calvinism, as I agree, there are more loving theologies, superior understandings, and explanations. I do not think I have heard of Leibniz before. He sounds interesting and someone I may benefit from reading Thanks again for the recommendation!Christ's empathy for sinners lies in the fact that He SUFFERED while being tempted.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:18)
We may never understand this fully, but the Satanic assaults on the soul of Christ brought Him suffering, thus He understands how Christians suffer when being tempted, and He sympathizes and empathizes with us.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:18)
We may never understand this fully, but the Satanic assaults on the soul of Christ brought Him suffering, thus He understands how Christians suffer when being tempted, and He sympathizes and empathizes with us.
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. 8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways.
Who is God speaking to: let the wicked forsake their ways . . . the unrighteous their thoughts - So nope Gods thoughts are not the thoughts of the unrighteous, nor are his ways the ways of the wicked.
God tells us: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children. Eph. 5:1 - that word "followers" means imitators - If we are to imitate God - we better know who he is.
We have the mind of Christ . . . we are not to be ignorant
Just saying
Who is God speaking to: let the wicked forsake their ways . . . the unrighteous their thoughts - So nope Gods thoughts are not the thoughts of the unrighteous, nor are his ways the ways of the wicked.
God tells us: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children. Eph. 5:1 - that word "followers" means imitators - If we are to imitate God - we better know who he is.
We have the mind of Christ . . . we are not to be ignorant
Just saying
In the other thread (part one), the most surprising statement I've found so far is: if God were omnipotent [all powerful] we would not sin.
Because satan sinned or man sinned or sins, God is not all powerful?
Was God all powerful BEFORE satan and men sinned? How is it that the sin of a created being caused God to no longer be all powerful?
I find it bizarre.
Because satan sinned or man sinned or sins, God is not all powerful?
Was God all powerful BEFORE satan and men sinned? How is it that the sin of a created being caused God to no longer be all powerful?
I find it bizarre.
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