Death and Dying, part deux
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#1 - What I have said throughout - God is not in control of EVERYTHING - MY meaning - God is NOT the causation of evil. I believe I said God does not control the evil done to us. (I could be wrong - there has been so much said and sometimes our words don't fully convey the full meaning of what we are trying to say!)
#2 - Then the "permission" thingy was brought up . . . I responded basically with if God responds to Satan with permission, assent, consent, allowing Satan to do evil then He is the causation of the evil that happens. I also responded with scripture.
#3 - When you posted scripture I responded to scripture - When I posted scripture, the scriptures I posted were never responded to.
#4 - If God says that Satan is the god of this world - then Satan is in control of things happening in this WORLD.
#5 - If God says that the whole world lies in the power, control of the evil one - then Satan is controlling the evil in this WORLD.
#6 - God stopping the evil that touches us - Yes, God can and will intervene on our behalf through our prayers and our faith
#7 - God stopping the evil that touches us - He has also given us the tools to keep ourselves from the wicked one
#8 - God does not render evil (make, cause, give) just so he can turn around and make it good - He takes the evil done, by and through our enemy and His, and makes it good.
#9 - Post #40 - "
#2 - Then the "permission" thingy was brought up . . . I responded basically with if God responds to Satan with permission, assent, consent, allowing Satan to do evil then He is the causation of the evil that happens. I also responded with scripture.
#3 - When you posted scripture I responded to scripture - When I posted scripture, the scriptures I posted were never responded to.
#4 - If God says that Satan is the god of this world - then Satan is in control of things happening in this WORLD.
#5 - If God says that the whole world lies in the power, control of the evil one - then Satan is controlling the evil in this WORLD.
#6 - God stopping the evil that touches us - Yes, God can and will intervene on our behalf through our prayers and our faith
#7 - God stopping the evil that touches us - He has also given us the tools to keep ourselves from the wicked one
#8 - God does not render evil (make, cause, give) just so he can turn around and make it good - He takes the evil done, by and through our enemy and His, and makes it good.
#9 - Post #40 - "
It's easy for me to pray because I know where the evil comes from . . . I trust because I know where the evil comes from. I stay alert and watchful, aware of evil's methods and I hopefully, to the best of my ability, I keep myself within the full armor of God to avoid the fiery darts of the wicked . . . Yes, the fiery darts of the wicked NOT any evil that God "allows" to touch me. God "allowing" evil to touch me is God orchestrating with Satan to perform evil. As scripture says - there is no darkness in God at all - evil is darkness and I guess that's why I believe the way I do."
#10 - So, there is a problem with a God who allows evil and yet, tells me how to avoid evil - If God is permitting the evil to befall me then it is his will . . . but yet we are told to fight against evil??????
[SUB][/SUB]#10 - So, there is a problem with a God who allows evil and yet, tells me how to avoid evil - If God is permitting the evil to befall me then it is his will . . . but yet we are told to fight against evil??????
Good morning Trofimus. Actually, protests against the RCC started centuries before Luther, and in fact, the first century church was fighting heresies, though of course the RCC did not exist that far back, even though they claim they are the church that Christ founded. Your analogy is not quite fitting, too, because I do not call myself a Lutheran, and I never would. I have attended Lutheran services and found them to be very Catholic. The same for Anglican. I found it somewhat disconcerting 
I call myself a born again Christian, or simply a Christian; a Bible-believing Christian.
There was a youtube video I saw a few years back that I wish I could find again, about the 12th century protests against the RCC. It was done documentary-style, like a dramatic recreation of what it was like for Christians to be "fighting" the RCC, and the abuse/persecution they endured at the hands of the established Roman church. It was quite informative, and very well done. Sigh. I have looked for it in the past but could not find it.
Is all that to say that God causes men to do evil?
Thanks again, Trofimus
I call myself a born again Christian, or simply a Christian; a Bible-believing Christian. There was a youtube video I saw a few years back that I wish I could find again, about the 12th century protests against the RCC. It was done documentary-style, like a dramatic recreation of what it was like for Christians to be "fighting" the RCC, and the abuse/persecution they endured at the hands of the established Roman church. It was quite informative, and very well done. Sigh. I have looked for it in the past but could not find it.
Is all that to say that God causes men to do evil?
No problem, we live in different time zones, anyway Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz is my most precious book after the Bible. Surely recommending.
Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz is my most precious book after the Bible. Surely recommending.
Good morning Trofimus. Actually, protests against the RCC started centuries before Luther, and in fact, the first century church was fighting heresies, though of course the RCC did not exist that far back, even though they claim they are the church that Christ founded. Your analogy is not quite fitting, too, because I do not call myself a Lutheran, and I never would. I have attended Lutheran services and found them to be very Catholic. The same for Anglican. I found it somewhat disconcerting I call myself a born again Christian, or simply a Christian; a Bible-believing Christian.
There was a youtube video I saw a few years back that I wish I could find again, about the 12th century protests against the RCC. It was done documentary-style, like a dramatic recreation of what it was like for Christians to be "fighting" the RCC, and the abuse/persecution they endured at the hands of the established Roman church. It was quite informative, and very well done. Sigh. I have looked for it in the past but could not find it.
I call myself a born again Christian, or simply a Christian; a Bible-believing Christian. There was a youtube video I saw a few years back that I wish I could find again, about the 12th century protests against the RCC. It was done documentary-style, like a dramatic recreation of what it was like for Christians to be "fighting" the RCC, and the abuse/persecution they endured at the hands of the established Roman church. It was quite informative, and very well done. Sigh. I have looked for it in the past but could not find it.
My point is that when somebody identifies himself to belong to some theological group, it does not mean he must follow everything everybody in that group ever said. If you identify yourself as "bible believing born again Christian", you do not have to follow everything what some "bible believing born again Christian" ever said.
I will speak just for myself, because its difficult to keep two ways of responding (for myself and for calvinists):
Every my action is predetermined, but God is not active in pushing me to evil.
As already Augustine declared, evil is a privation of being, whereas the action of God tends to the positive.
What does that mean? It means that everything that is created is falling to evil like everything you drop falls to the ground. Its God who makes the positive force by "holding it" in some level of good. His power is used in a positive way while the privation of us tends to evil.
So God actively makes us good (by His grace), but He can just "drop" us a little and we are going to the evil way, like hurting somebody.
This evil originates only in us, God will just let us do it, when it is needed for some higher good, and controlls its direction towards His plans.
Good points and thoughts, once again! This is going to require a really intense conversation. I definitely will respond to the verses you say I havent. be back very shortly. And I'm going to try to not spread my focus among 7 different conversations with 7 people at once because this requires all of my attention. It's importanimportant for all of us.
I'm back, all the furniture is done and at the storage space, I have coffee, and I should be able to focus for at least a bit until someone interrupts me!
I'm starting with your #1.
You say that when you say God is not in control of everything, that what you mean is He is not the causation of evil. I agree and I have stated numerous times that I do not believe God causes evil/is the author of evil/causes men to do evil to each other but that He works ALL things for our good, including any plans or plots that evil devises against us.
So do we differ? If we don't, then we are in agreement. If we do differ, what do you see us differing on regarding your point #1?
I'm starting with your #1.
You say that when you say God is not in control of everything, that what you mean is He is not the causation of evil. I agree and I have stated numerous times that I do not believe God causes evil/is the author of evil/causes men to do evil to each other but that He works ALL things for our good, including any plans or plots that evil devises against us.
So do we differ? If we don't, then we are in agreement. If we do differ, what do you see us differing on regarding your point #1?
No evil shall befall me nor any plague come nigh my dwelling.
Thats what popped into my mind as I was reading your post.
All these questions are dealt with through the word. And the best way to find out what the will of God is on anything is topical studies. Am not a KJV only person, but for study? It can't be beat. Also the Thompson Chain letter edition.
plus, we walk with the Lord, in the Lord on a daily basis. That alone should settle many questions. He is behind us, before us, beneath us...above. Complete in Him.
Stay in the secret place and place faith that you are there. And war against lies.
Am in agreement with peaceful believer, and she chose a great user name in her declaration of faith.
Thats what popped into my mind as I was reading your post.
All these questions are dealt with through the word. And the best way to find out what the will of God is on anything is topical studies. Am not a KJV only person, but for study? It can't be beat. Also the Thompson Chain letter edition.
plus, we walk with the Lord, in the Lord on a daily basis. That alone should settle many questions. He is behind us, before us, beneath us...above. Complete in Him.
Stay in the secret place and place faith that you are there. And war against lies.
Am in agreement with peaceful believer, and she chose a great user name in her declaration of faith.
I did add the link. Go back and look. Stunnedbygrace even went to your post linked to with that hyperlink and compared the post I quoted with your original and noted that I changed nothing of what was quoted.
Sooooo, must those who wish to quote what you write here at CC ask your permission to do so? Should that be a new, special rule here at CC that applies just to Depleted?
The vast majority of posts on every single thread here at CC (and most other forums) use the quote function, with occasional editing to address the points made and not necessarily the other poster's entire post.
After posting over 22,130 times here at CC, you know that. Heck, you've done that!
I quoted the portion of your post that I was addressing in my post. It is common practice by those who post here at CC. You've done it.
I was disagreeing with your perception of God through your experiences. No one should have to go through the things you did. It's completely normal for us to want to understand why or to hope that there is some purpose for the things that happen in our lives - things that happen to US. There are things in my life that have happened where God expressly revealed through His Word that what was happening to me was NOT how He intended for things to be, but that because He would not cross the free will of others, He promised to walk through that season/circumstance and sustain me through it.
Never, not for one moment, did I think that God was choosing to not intervene on my behalf because He was trying to teach me something, or to try to bend or shape me in some way. No - He simply loved me and showed me in His Word His Character and Who He is AND who I as His daughter am in Him. And that's exactly what I needed to walk through that season. Much damage could have been done to me, and though not unscathed, God sustained me and healed the places that were wounded.
I did attribute the post to you, including a hyperlink to your post. The content of the quote was attributed to you, indented twice to differentiate it as your post, and in italics, as quoted posts are.
Quoting with a hyperlink to the original post is not plagiarism.
If you rather that you hadn't posted what you did, I completely understand that. Your story is of a highly sensitive nature. Perhaps you could contact the mods and request that they remove that content.
But it's out there, and this is a discussion forum. You were making a serious statement using part of your life's story about how you view God. This thread is a continuation of your thread, started by another poster (perhaps you should be mad at them?). Your perception of how you view God came up in this thread. Posters occasionally pull posts from other threads, so my doing so was not out of the norm. I believe that your view is a dysfunctional one, promulgated by a Calvinist influenced mindset. My intent was not to wound you by quoting your post, but to show where I disagree with your view and why. That happens on a discussion forum.
Lynn, you're obviously very upset about this, and offended. Should I apologize for disagreeing with you? Should my perception of God, based on what He's shown me over my lifetime through His Word and in the midst of circumstances I've been through be any less valid than yours?
I am not the source of your hurt - I quoted your post - with a hyperlink - something every person on this forum does on a regular basis - including YOU. Again, if the content of your post is something you'd rather not have out there, I totally get that. The remedy to that is not railing against me, falsely accusing and threatening me, it's in contacting the mods to see if they will remove that content.
God is God. He is Who He is. It's obvious that there are different perceptions of how He loves us, disciplines us, teaches us.
This is a discussion forum where such things are discussed. You are quick to take offense if someone disagrees with your perception of God or your theological opinions. Not only are you quick to take offense, but then you go on the attack, attempting to discredit and assassinate the character of those who disagree with you.
Now you've upped the ante to threatening me.
Then those who are your targets have to decide whether to let what you say just hang out there, or defend ourselves, correcting the record.
The result is messy threads where the topic that was being discussed gets lost in the messiness. And you are the impetus for many of the times that happens.
If you are confident that what you believe is true, then just put it out there and let the reader decide.
You will find you have no case. You post here with the expectation/understanding that you will be quoted. One does not post over 22,000 times like you have and not know that. We all know that.
Neither CC nor I took your post and published it on an outside source or has sought any monetary gain from your composition. A hyperlink was posted at the beginning of your quote, and I stated that Depleted wrote the following preceding the hyperlink and the quote. The text was indented twice and appeared in italics as quotes do to separate it from the text of my post.
No case.
That quote is from William Shakespeare, btw. Don't need him getting mad at me, too
!-JGIG
JGIG, you are a warm and perceptive woman. You can't see why taking someones difficult story/testimony/awful experience and reposting it with the comment that the post or the thoughts of the poster could do damage to others or make them turn from God or reject Him (it was what you posted down at the bottom of your post and I don't remember the exact words you used) could hurt someone? You can't find it in you to say you may have not been considering how that could make someone feel, considering that it was an awful thing to have lived through? Forget the ongoing battle and think about her hurt for just a moment. You guys can pick the ongoing battle back up later but can't you at all see what I'm saying?
Go back and reread what she wrote. I will not re-quote her post here, as it has caused her some distress. I will include excerpts, however, with a links to her posts.
She absolutely did say that God caused those awful things, and continues to take her places she doesn't want to go, from http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/166456-death-dying-part-deux-11.html#post3572592:
"God caused me to go through that", "God had to show me how much I needed Him", "I needed a kick", "The Lord took me to where I never wanted to go, and plunged me in so deep".
And this, from http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/166325-death-dying-spurgeon-style.html#post3565166:
"The places the Lord takes me that I don't want to go is that same 10% chance of surviving for hubby. I'd much prefer "healthy, healthy, healthy" diagnoses. I mean, I keep telling God this, but he doesn't stop."
I get that no one here wants to perpetuate any pain that Depleted has dealt with in her life.
Nor do I.
That said, she has based her perception of God on how she's dealt with and/or processed her life's experiences, and declared those perceptions as absolute truth here on the BDF. And God forbid that someone disagree with her! Why should her opinion about God somehow be untouchable because of her life experiences? If I post some past abuse that I've experienced, will my opinions also be untouchable?
I would expect not.
And neither should she.
-JGIG
She absolutely did say that God caused those awful things, and continues to take her places she doesn't want to go, from http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/166456-death-dying-part-deux-11.html#post3572592:
"God caused me to go through that", "God had to show me how much I needed Him", "I needed a kick", "The Lord took me to where I never wanted to go, and plunged me in so deep".
And this, from http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/166325-death-dying-spurgeon-style.html#post3565166:
"The places the Lord takes me that I don't want to go is that same 10% chance of surviving for hubby. I'd much prefer "healthy, healthy, healthy" diagnoses. I mean, I keep telling God this, but he doesn't stop."
I get that no one here wants to perpetuate any pain that Depleted has dealt with in her life.
Nor do I.
That said, she has based her perception of God on how she's dealt with and/or processed her life's experiences, and declared those perceptions as absolute truth here on the BDF. And God forbid that someone disagree with her! Why should her opinion about God somehow be untouchable because of her life experiences? If I post some past abuse that I've experienced, will my opinions also be untouchable?
I would expect not.
And neither should she.
-JGIG
This sounds like spiritual calculus. Let's face it. Augustine (like all the Church Fathers) had a mixture of truth and error in his beliefs. So unless you can support each of your points with specific Scriptures, they will not add up.
Let's focus on evil in humanity.
Are all human beings constantly and invariably evil? NO
Do all human beings have a conscience? YES
Does God say that many humans do right according to their conscience? YES
Let's focus on evil in humanity.
Are all human beings constantly and invariably evil? NO
Do all human beings have a conscience? YES
Does God say that many humans do right according to their conscience? YES
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