Death and Dying, part deux

[UnderGrace]

There is a difference between what God knows, what He allows, what He controls and what He causes.

That He has all these within His ability is what makes Him sovereign, not that He controls every minutia of our lives

Sovereignty also means that there is no other being above Him, that is the historical meaning of the word, to be sovereign has not meant to be in total control, a King was sovereign because he was the highest authority in the land.

I honestly do not relate to this need for God to be in complete control to trust, I know He knows and he will be there when bad things happen and that is enough for me.

I did not trust my parents because they had complete control over life's circumstances but because I was persuaded that they loved me and would help me through life's trials.

Hmm...by complete control I mean that I needed to know, before I could fully trust Him, even in the most awful circumstances, that I am not just being buffeted by events or persons that He has no control whatsoever over and that He really DOES guide my every step as scripture says.

I needed to know that if some great hardship or evil befell me, that He had permitted it and so I could trust Him and didn't have to be fearful, anxious or worried, because He would never allow anything to touch me unless He was working for my good and to bless me and for the good of those around me and to bless them.

I think some read that God gives permission to satan to buffet Job or permission to satan to sift peter like wheat, and they can't trust a God who would permit those things. Then there are others like me who will accept literally anything that happens to them, but only because they know that God is working His will and that the evil won't overcome Him.

 

[Magenta]

I should have included "to me" in that sentence. It has become a moot point to me to have argument over if God willed or permitted some evil to come to me because my faith is such now that it makes it unnecessary to wrestle with the question. If He works all things to my good as I know now, I can accept every circumstance without fear of and mistrust of Him.

As far as maligning God, I haven't seen anyone say that God causes a man to pick up a gun and shoot me or to molest or harm me. Someone may have said it elsewhere, but I have never (yet) seen a man in here malign God by saying He causes men to do evil to other men.

In fact, I don't think it's even part of the argument that anyone is saying God causes men to do evil. I rather think the argument is over if He permits men to do evil to His children. One person says yes, He permits it sometimes. Another person says, no, it's just that He has no control over it and can't stop the evil man.

A holy God cannot create evil, nor will evil, nor be pleased with evil, and Scripture would seem to be quite clear and uncompromising on this topic. Nevertheless, John Calvin says that “nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Please look up the meanings of the word "decree" and "ordain." Calvinist John Piscador says, “God necessitates man unto sin,” and, “God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” Calvinist Augustus Toplady claims, “God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked…”

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it. ​

You don't think it is part of the argument, but I do, and believe it is an unavoidable aspect of, and integral to, the issue. The Calvinist claim is that God ordains what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen. However, it is God's will that all repent, yet the Calvinist will say all does not mean all, and only applies to the chosen elect, meaning them of course, and not the whole world, as in, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If you have not seen that, you have not been paying attention when Calvinists speak.

The Op has argued that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world would be forgiven, as if repentance is not a necessary component of salvation, but he will bristle and bark if you point that out to him. Others will say God is weak if He wills something but does not bring it to pass, as if He were a bully that forces people to bend to His will of coming to the knowledge of truth and salvation. I can see a correlation between the bullies that hold this view, and the view itself! To say God is loving, just and merciful while claiming at the same time that salvation is not offered to all, and those to whom it is not offered have no way to be saved because it is not God's will for them, and that God is going to torture them forever after for refusing His non-existent offer to them, is a god of vain and vile imaginings, the monstrosity concocted within Calvinism, and promoted by people who call themselves Bible believing Christians.

Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. One must believe He did not know what He was talking about to accept the Calvinistic doctrines, beliefs, and views. In the Calvinist view, God rewards and punishes people for things which they are not responsible, because the Calvinist view says that man plays no role in his salvation.

More quotes by Calvinists proving they believe God is the author of evil.

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer. https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/

 

[Nehemiah6]

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.

This is indeed the logical result of Calvinistic doctrine. If Calvinists would be honest, they would admit that their doctrine makes God responsible for all the sin and evil in this world. He is the ultimate Cause according to their warped idea of the sovereignty of God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is a difference between what God knows, what He allows, what He controls and what He causes.

I agree, (although I don't know why you answered me with this or what point you were trying to address or answer in my post ) that there are differences between those 4 words. I differ from you in that I don't think He allows/permits anything that He isn't in control of and can't work for my good.

I've given some examples from the bible. I'll outline them again.

God allowed Josephs brothers to sell him into slavery. God could have easily prevented it from happening if He wanted to, but He did it to save many men from starvation from a famine that would come years later, and yep, I believe He brought the lack of rain that caused the famine too because He controls the storehouses of rain as scripture says. ) Josephs brothers meant it for evil but God meant it for good. And Gods' good will was what happened despite the wills of Josephs brothers or their motives or intents.

I guess we could take the story of Joseph and apply the debate that's going on in the thread about whether God permitted the brothers to do that evil to Joseph or whether they did it because God couldn't control what men did to Joseph because God isn't in control over evil or satan. But once again, to me personally, it's a moot conversation because the end result was that Gods' will was done, He intended it for good and so it ended in His good will, which was to save many men. So if they did it to him because God had no control over what they did, (while I don't agree with the thought), is a moot point to me because between what their motive was and what Gods intent was, Gods intent was what won out. The darkness cannot overtake the light. Satan is not the strong man - God is.

So... if I believe God can overcome any plot/device/evil intent made against Joseph (or me), and bring it to the good of myself and others, I don't think I have gone wrong. I am running my race of trusting God and I'm doing so even in some pretty bad circumstances at times, so who could find fault with me...?

 

[Nehemiah6]

...so who could find fault with me...?

Why don't you ask a Calvinist? He or she could find fault with your beliefs.

Yes God allows things to happen, and uses things which happen, to bring about what He has purposed.

And that is because God knows all things from the very beginning. The crucifixion of Christ is always a good example.

 

[oldethennew]

That age has not changed on this site for years. Yes, I'm over 70

==================================================

me too; and with all of the baggage that I've learned is required of me and my husband,
for the glory of God...
this is our 'tell', down to the bones: this is our FLAG', this is how we live for Him -
our doubts/questions, are all part of our journey of being 'called out' by Him for His Glory...
our questions don't really matter - His Will, His Grace, His Order=His 'Sacrifice'!!!
it's all we need to want to 'live', for Him...

Hub and I willingly submit - this is our life's journey and we embrace it with all of our hearts...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A holy God cannot create evil, nor will evil, nor be pleased with evil, and Scripture would seem to be quite clear and uncompromising on this topic. Nevertheless, John Calvin says that “nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Please look up the meanings of the word "decree" and "ordain." Calvinist John Piscador says, “God necessitates man unto sin,” and, “God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” Calvinist Augustus Toplady claims, “God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked…”

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it. ​

You don't think it is part of the argument, but I do, and believe it is an unavoidable aspect of, and integral to, the issue. The Calvinist claim is that God ordains what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen. However, it is God's will that all repent, yet the Calvinist will say all does not mean all, and only applies to the chosen elect, meaning them of course, and not the whole world, as in, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If you have not seen that, you have not been paying attention when Calvinists speak.

The Op has argued that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world would be forgiven, as if repentance is not a necessary component of salvation, but he will bristle and bark if you point that out to him. Others will say God is weak if He wills something but does not bring it to pass, as if He were a bully that forces people to bend to His will of coming to the knowledge of truth and salvation. I can see a correlation between the bullies that hold this view, and the view itself! To say God is loving, just and merciful while claiming at the same time that salvation is not offered to all, and those to whom it is not offered have no way to be saved because it is not God's will for them, and that God is going to torture them forever after for refusing His non-existent offer to them, is a god of vain and vile imaginings, the monstrosity concocted within Calvinism, and promoted by people who call themselves Bible believing Christians.

Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. One must believe He did not know what He was talking about to accept the Calvinistic doctrines, beliefs, and views. In the Calvinist view, God rewards and punishes people for things which they are not responsible, because the Calvinist view says that man plays no role in his salvation.

More quotes by Calvinists proving they believe God is the author of evil.

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer. https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/

From just your first sentence I decided not to read the rest of your post because nowhere have I said that God creates evil, does, evil, wills evil, or is pleased with evil.

I have said that He sometimes permits evil to touch us (Job, Joseph being sold into slavery, Jesus' murder, Peters sifting by satan when he asked for permission from God) and that the debate over willed/permitted/allowed/has no control over - is nonsensical to me because I don't care if the end result will always be that He works all things for my good. So it doesn't matter what ill will, plot, evil device anyone forms against me. God will mean it for good and so the result will be that He works it for my good and men and satan will not have control over that. Men and satan do not control my life and the events in it - God does. It may SEEM that men control my life and can do whatever they wish to do to me, but I know it isn't so.

I've used many bible examples of where a man or satan devised an evil plan against a man where God worked it to the great good of many, (including the man the evil plot was formed against in the first place). That's more than enough examples to examine to see that the darkness can't overcome the light and that God can turn what anyone means for evil to good. So I don't walk around scared of what might happen to me because of the evil intents of men. God works everything for my good, even someones evil intent toward me.

I don't understand what the beef is with what I've said. I trust God when He says He works all things for my good. I can't comprehend why that would disturb anyone...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Why don't you ask a Calvinist? He or she could find fault with your beliefs.

Yes God allows things to happen, and uses things which happen, to bring about what He has purposed.

And that is because God knows all things from the very beginning. The crucifixion of Christ is always a good example.

And yet, strangely, it is not a Calvinist who has argued with me (at least not yet), but it's noncalvinists who have taken some issue with my beliefs and thoughts...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And yet, strangely, it is not a Calvinist who has argued with me (at least not yet), but it's noncalvinists who have taken some issue with my beliefs and thoughts...

And I will add that I have used bible examples to show that God works all for my good, EVEN the ill intents and plans of men and satan. But whenever anyone argues with me, they offer no verses at all to show that it is scripture that has informed their beliefs.

 

[UnderGrace]

I am not arguing with you, "complete control" is different than God using events good or bad for our good.

Complete control is what Magenta outlined above.

And I will add that I have used bible examples to show that God works all for my good, EVEN the ill intents and plans of men and satan. But whenever anyone argues with me, they offer no verses at all to show that it is scripture that has informed their beliefs.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am not arguing with you, "complete control" is different than God using events good or bad for our good.

Complete control is what Magenta outlined above.

To me, that IS complete control, that you could take what someone meant for harm and great evil and work it for the persons good...

 

[garee]

A holy God cannot create evil, nor will evil, nor be pleased with evil, and Scripture would seem to be quite clear and uncompromising on this topic. Nevertheless, John Calvin says that “nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Please look up the meanings of the word "decree" and "ordain." Calvinist John Piscador says, “God necessitates man unto sin,” and, “God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” Calvinist Augustus Toplady claims, “God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked…”

Calvin is dead and we are not to let men lord it over our faith. We are made aware that we do not need men to teach us. One is our infallible teacher comforter and guide in heaven as it the word of God teaches us we abide in him

Two kinds of evil… nothing of itself is evil other than the evil one.(the god of this world the father of lies) God does not necessitate evil but rather gives us a way out. He is that way.

There is an evil that comes by denying the word of God by refusing to follow after all things written in the law and the prophets .And one kind of evil that God brings upon His children as discipline to ultimately bring the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding. The latter is not in respect to the unbeliever.(no faith)


Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

 

[oldethennew]

it's really all about our own understanding of the GLORY of our Creator, that He has blessed us with,
on an 'individual basis'..., His timing for us as His own on His own calendar...

 

[Magenta]

From just your first sentence I decided not to read the rest of your post because nowhere have I said that God creates evil, does, evil, wills evil, or is pleased with evil.

Well, that was rude. I was explaining Calvinism to you, because that is at the heart of the debate, but you are obviously not interested in what is truly involved.

 

[UnderGrace]

The statements made by the theologians in your post are truly disturbing ...

God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.

Sister Magenta, you are truly contending for the faith and the God of the Bible, unlike these men who actually liken God to the mythological gods of the pagans

A holy God cannot create evil, nor will evil, nor be pleased with evil, and Scripture would seem to be quite clear and uncompromising on this topic. Nevertheless, John Calvin says that “nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Please look up the meanings of the word "decree" and "ordain." Calvinist John Piscador says, “God necessitates man unto sin,” and, “God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” Calvinist Augustus Toplady claims, “God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked…”

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.
​

You don't think it is part of the argument, but I do, and believe it is an unavoidable aspect of, and integral to, the issue. The Calvinist claim is that God ordains what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen. However, it is God's will that all repent, yet the Calvinist will say all does not mean all, and only applies to the chosen elect, meaning them of course, and not the whole world, as in, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If you have not seen that, you have not been paying attention when Calvinists speak.

The Op has argued that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world would be forgiven, as if repentance is not a necessary component of salvation, but he will bristle and bark if you point that out to him. Others will say God is weak if He wills something but does not bring it to pass, as if He were a bully that forces people to bend to His will of coming to the knowledge of truth and salvation. I can see a correlation between the bullies that hold this view, and the view itself! To say God is loving, just and merciful while claiming at the same time that salvation is not offered to all, and those to whom it is not offered have no way to be saved because it is not God's will for them, and that God is going to torture them forever after for refusing His non-existent offer to them, is a god of vain and vile imaginings, the monstrosity concocted within Calvinism, and promoted by people who call themselves Bible believing Christians.

Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. One must believe He did not know what He was talking about to accept the Calvinistic doctrines, beliefs, and views. In the Calvinist view, God rewards and punishes people for things which they are not responsible, because the Calvinist view says that man plays no role in his salvation.

More quotes by Calvinists proving they believe God is the author of evil.

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer. https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/

 

[Magenta]

The statements made by the theologians in your post are truly disturbing ...

Sister Magenta, you are truly contending for the faith and the God of the Bible, unlike these men who actually liken God to the mythological gods of the pagans

Thank you, UnderGrace. Unlike some, I know you are genuinely interested in truth. It is disturbing to a great extent that there are those who put the doctrines of men above the revealed written Word of God, just as it is disturbing for some to say, gosh I have never seen anyone say this!!! And then when you show a multitude of people saying the very things they claim they have never seen, they deliberately turn a blind eye.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well, that was rude. I was explaining Calvinism to you, but you are obviously not interested in what is truly involved.

I wasn't trying to be rude...I just saw that your answer to my post was to instruct me that God does not will, do, like or make men do evil. And since I never said He did, I couldn't see where reading the post would be worthwhile. But why were you trying to explain Calvinism to me??? What does Calvinism have to do with God working all things to our good...? I wasn't even aware that anyone thought the thread was about Calvinism...maybe I'm just dense...anyway, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just saying that from your first sentence, you seemed to me to be thinking I needed to understand that God does not will, do, cause, or like evil - and since I never stated that He does, I just stopped reading, thinking that it would not be profitable to read the rest. It's okay that you wanted to explain what Calvinism is to me - I just didn't know that's what you were doing, but instead thought that you thought I had said God causes men to do evil, which it would never cross my mind to think or say!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thank you, UnderGrace. Unlike some, I know you are genuinely interested in truth. It is disturbing to a great extent that there are those who put the doctrines of men above the revealed written Word of God, just as it is disturbing for some to say, gosh I have never seen anyone say this!!! And then when you show a multitude of people saying the very things they claim they have never seen, they deliberately turn a blind eye.

You are going to have to show me where I have put the doctrines of men above the word of God. I used many bible examples for my belief that God works even evil intents and plans for our good. I'm quite literally confused as to how I have found myself here...I will go back over my posts and try to ascertain what on earth happened or what I said that was the doctrine of men rather than biblical.

 

[Magenta]

I wasn't trying to be rude...I just saw that your answer to my post was to instruct me that God does not will, do, like or make men do evil. And since I never said He did, I couldn't see where reading the post would be worthwhile. But why were you trying to explain Calvinism to me??? What does Calvinism have to do with God working all things to our good...? I wasn't even aware that anyone thought the thread was about Calvinism...maybe I'm just dense...anyway, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just saying that from your first sentence, you seemed to me to be thinking I needed to understand that God does not will, do, cause, or like evil - and since I never stated that He does, I just stopped reading, thinking that it would not be profitable to read the rest. It's okay that you wanted to explain what Calvinism is to me - I just didn't know that's what you were doing, but instead thought that you thought I had said God causes men to do evil, which it would never cross my mind to think or say!

I don't know why you would think I thought that, when you plainly said you have never seen anyone say such. I went to great lengths to show you people saying the very thing you say you have never seen and you turn a blind eye to it. Now you can keep saying you have never seen it, and I can say it is because you are wilfully blind to it. Agreed? Good. Now, your not knowing that this debate has anything to do with Calvinism is puzzling, since you said you had read most of the other thread, which had a great deal to do with Calvinistic thought and beliefs, especially considering the FACT that it was titled On Death and Dying -- Spurgeon Style. For your information, Spurgeon was a Calvinist.

 

[oldethennew]

it's all about the 'root'!! 'discernment and understanding'! desire heartily to know yourselves and
the'roots/reasons' of your speeking to others...