DELAYED NO LONGER, IN YOUR DAYS!!!

[KJV1611]

Well maybe we can find a way to move forward anyway. I have come to enjoy our discussions - outside of the KJ debate. I personally believe that the NASB is a more accurate translation than the KJ is. But I have found places where it seems that they have used a synonym for a word, that would have caused a more direct connection to another verse had they used the same word that was in the other verse. I know that was a bit wordy, but I think you know what I mean. But I do appreciate the NASB's approach in regard to italicizing words that are implied, writing Lord, LORD, etc. to show which word was translated as Lord, and writing all caps to indicate a quote from the OT (however, the problem with that approach is that people assume that if it is not all capitals, then it is not a quote from the OT.

I am rambling.

Maybe you can make your points in KJ and if there is an item of disagreement, I will check out the KJ,the Interlinear, confer with someone at my church that can read Greek (I don't know if any of them can read Hebrew. And I am pretty sure that none of them can read Aramaic).

I will look into taunt/proverb and a/the, but I will tell you now that Isaiah 14 sounds like a taunt to me

Point 2 from the NASB... that was hard for me to do lol.
4 that you will take up this [b]taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,
“How the oppressor has ceased,
And how [c]fury has ceased!
5 “The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of rulers
6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes,
Which [d]subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.
7 “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet;
They break forth into shouts of joy.
8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’



The king of Babylon, the oppressor has ceased and his fury has ceased. Why did it cease?
Because the Lord has broken the staff of the wicked (the king of Babylon), the scepter (the king of Babylon) of rulers, which was used to strike the peoples in fury, which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.

The whole earth is at rest and is quiet and they break forth in shouts of joy. Why?
Because the lord has broken the staff of the wicked... the king of Babylon. The staff and the scepter are the king of Babylon. The king of Babylon is the power behind the wicked. He is the power behind the rulers.

Jesus is never known as an oppressor.
God has never broken Jesus.
Jesus was never the scepter of the rulers.
Jesus never subdued the nations in anger and with unrestrained persecution.

 

[JimmieD]

How about this for Russia?

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

I guess I missed the word "Russia" there.

Waters are not flowing from this Temple for it has not been built yet.

John 2:19 Jesus replied,“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.” 2:20 Then the Jewish leaders[SUP] 44 [/SUP] said to him, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,and are you going to raise it up in three days?” 2:21 But Jesuswas speaking about the temple of his body. 2:22 So after he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scriptureand the sayingthat Jesus had spoken.


John7:37 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day,Jesus stood up and shouted out,“If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 7:38 let the one who believes in me drink.Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’”

 

[Timeline]

Point 2 from the NASB... that was hard for me to do lol.
4 that you will take up this [b]taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,
“How the oppressor has ceased,
And how [c]fury has ceased!
5 “The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of rulers
6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes,
Which [d]subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.
7 “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet;
They break forth into shouts of joy.
8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’



The king of Babylon, the oppressor has ceased and his fury has ceased. Why did it cease?
Because the Lord has broken the staff of the wicked (the king of Babylon), the scepter (the king of Babylon) of rulers, which was used to strike the peoples in fury, which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.

The whole earth is at rest and is quiet and they break forth in shouts of joy. Why?
Because the lord has broken the staff of the wicked... the king of Babylon. The staff and the scepter are the king of Babylon. The king of Babylon is the power behind the wicked. He is the power behind the rulers.

Jesus is never known as an oppressor.
God has never broken Jesus.
Jesus was never the scepter of the rulers.
Jesus never subdued the nations in anger and with unrestrained persecution.

First I want to acknowledge that I understand that it was no little thing that you quoted from the NASB (and also that I am aware that you do not accept it as the word of God - not saying that in criticism, but admiration and acknowledgment of your desire to calmly and respectfully discuss scripture).

Okay, how did the Pharisees, Sadducees, Lawyers, etc. see Jesus. He did not oppress in the manner in which we think of it, but they were, plainly in scripture, held back by Jesus. Jesus verbally shattered their position. He made people think less of them - And they hated Him for it. Jesus made them look like fools, in front of the people, with such simple words - it was beautifully simple responses and not complex, well structured phrases. They wanted to kill Jesus, but because Jesus was well respected and they had been reveled to be foolish, they couldn't touch Him...until He was ready.

We can also note the reference to "trees calling out", which clearly places symbolism into this proverb/taunt. And whether or not Jesus did more than oppress with wisdom, I would also like to note Matt 3:10 and Luke 3:9 (The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.) Two of the gospels start with "the axe is already laid at the root of the trees".

Another interesting scripture (though it may be off topic) is Mark 8:24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.” Interestingly this miracle is a two part miracle. Jesus seems to partially heal his sight, then he sees "men walking around like trees", then his vision is completely restored.

I am not sure about the "scepter of the rulers", but I will point out that Israel/Judah had a man that rose to second/third in command in each of the kingdoms in which they were in captivity: Joseph, Moses(? not really second in command), Mordecai, and Daniel (there may be more, but that is all that I can think of right now). Now I know that they weren't God, but come on, God backed them.

 

[KJV1611]

Ok, lets keep going.

“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the [e]spirits of the dead, all the[f]leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 “They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.’

Sheol is excited to meet the king of Babylon.
Sheol arouses the spirits of the dead and raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
They respond "Even you (king of Babylon) have been made weak as we are, you have become like us... keep in mind these are the dead in hell.

Maggots are spread out as you bed beneath you and worms are your covering???

I don't think hell was excited to see Jesus.
Jesus was not made week like the souls of the dead in hell. Yes he was made a little lower than the angels, but Jesus was not weak in any way shape or form.

Jesus never lay on a bed of maggots and worms were never his covering, in fact the bible tells us that Jesus' body never saw corruption.

 

[Timeline]

Ok, lets keep going.

“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the [e]spirits of the dead, all the[f]leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 “They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.’

Sheol is excited to meet the king of Babylon.
Sheol arouses the spirits of the dead and raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
They respond "Even you (king of Babylon) have been made weak as we are, you have become like us... keep in mind these are the dead in hell.

Maggots are spread out as you bed beneath you and worms are your covering???

I don't think hell was excited to see Jesus.
Jesus was not made week like the souls of the dead in hell. Yes he was made a little lower than the angels, but Jesus was not weak in any way shape or form.

Jesus never lay on a bed of maggots and worms were never his covering, in fact the bible tells us that Jesus' body never saw corruption.

This is where I have a problem, but not in the way that you seem to think.

This is a taunt (again, according to the NASB), so the problem is not the evil things that they are saying (let the reader understand - it is bad, but "fits" the taunt). The problem, to me anyway, is that they seem to have insight that they shouldn't have had. When it says that the spirits are aroused, it reminds me of Matt 27:52-53 [SUP]52 [/SUP]The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Although, they could very well be referring to Ezekiel 37(which they would not have known at the time that Isaiah was written, but they would have been aware of when Jesus was crucified).

Ez. 37:7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath (this is very interesting - He prophesies to "the breath"), ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” [SUP]10 [/SUP]So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Matthew, as well as the rest of the NT, is unclear on what happened to these "saints" that rose at the crucifixion and went into Jerusalem - Where they an "exceedingly great army"? If so, what did they do? How long did they wait before they did whatever they did? And all of this is left to speculation - unless, of course, we can put other scripture together (that was actually intended to go together), but that gets tricky. Because so many people (I am sure that I am included) apply one prophesy incorrectly to another prophesy. But that is our quest (of course, with the understanding that we are saved through Jesus Christ despite our misunderstanding/understanding of how prophesy was (or will be) fulfilled.

 

[Timeline]

I would also like to thank you once again, because discussing scripture and prophesy in this way can help me iron out problems with ideas that I currently have. Though I will tell you that it would be quite an accomplishment to convince me that all prophesy was not fulfilled in Jesus and immediately after through the Apostles. I currently believe that the destruction of Jerusalem (70AD-ish) was the final confirmation/sign of the end to the Old Testament. Not that there is not wisdom and explanation in it, but that we were introduced to a/The New Way.

 

[Timeline]

Job 25:6
How much less man, that maggot, And the son of man, that worm!”

Then Bildad the Shuhite answered,[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Dominion and awe belong to Him
Who establishes peace in His heights.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Is there any number to His troops?
And upon whom does His light not rise?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How then can a man be just with God?
Or how can he be clean who is born of woman?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“If even the moon has no brightness
And the stars are not pure in His sight,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]How much less man, that maggot,

And the son of man, that worm!”

I do realize that these are the words of Bildad, but if you read through ALL the responses in Job, there is a lot of insight and foreshadowing. I personally don't agree with the early writing of Job, but quite frankly, I haven't invested a lot of time in placing a time period for Job.

I know that this doesn't really fit into the scripture at hand, but it is interesting still:
Psalms 22:1-8 A Psalm of David
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But I am a worm and not a man,A reproach of men and despised by the people.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]All who see me sneer at me;They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Well, it kind of does fit regarding the taunt/sneer, but in Isaiah 14 it reads, "And worms are your covering"

 

[Timeline]

I would also like to include something that I just realized from the King James:

[SUP] [/SUP]That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

It doesn't say "taunt" but it does say "take up this proverb "against" the king of Babylon". Which makes me think that there might be something in the Proverbs, but right now nothing is coming to mind. I do realize that not all proverbs are in Proverbs, but there is a good chance that something might be there.




I am at work so I need to go pretend to do something, I will check back in with you later. Your username is at the bottom of the main page, but I just started wondering if you are really up and when do you sleep - though some might think the same of me.

 

[Timeline]

I would also like to include something that I just realized from the King James:

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

It doesn't say "taunt" but it does say "take up this proverb "against" the king of Babylon". Which makes me think that there might be something in the Proverbs, but right now nothing is coming to mind. I do realize that not all proverbs are in Proverbs, but there is a good chance that something might be there.




I am at work so I need to go pretend to do something, I will check back in with you later. Your username is at the bottom of the main page, but I just started wondering if you are really up and when do you sleep - though some might think the same of me.

There is an Interlinear Bible in our Church Library and I took a look at our scripture of discussion. I am even more convinced than I was before, but I will continue to look into it. I read the Interlinear to my wife (thinking it was much clearer than the NASB, but my wife said that they read the same - but what does she know).

There were some interesting differences between the Interlinear, KJ, and NASB.

 

[KJV1611]

Job 25:6
How much less man, that maggot, And the son of man, that worm!”

Then Bildad the Shuhite answered,[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Dominion and awe belong to Him
Who establishes peace in His heights.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Is there any number to His troops?
And upon whom does His light not rise?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How then can a man be just with God?
Or how can he be clean who is born of woman?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“If even the moon has no brightness
And the stars are not pure in His sight,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]How much less man, that maggot,

And the son of man, that worm!”

I do realize that these are the words of Bildad, but if you read through ALL the responses in Job, there is a lot of insight and foreshadowing. I personally don't agree with the early writing of Job, but quite frankly, I haven't invested a lot of time in placing a time period for Job.

I know that this doesn't really fit into the scripture at hand, but it is interesting still:
Psalms 22:1-8 A Psalm of David
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But I am a worm and not a man,A reproach of men and despised by the people.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]All who see me sneer at me;They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Well, it kind of does fit regarding the taunt/sneer, but in Isaiah 14 it reads, "And worms are your covering"

I agree a lot Job is foreshadowing of Jesus, just as much as is in the Psalms and yes I think both call Jesus a worm. But I think the worm describes his human side.. not that that matters because Jesus is still referred to as a worm imo. So I can see how this could go either way (Jesus or Lucifer) in Isaiah.

 

[john832]

I guess I missed the word "Russia" there.



John 2:19 Jesus replied,“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.” 2:20 Then the Jewish leaders[SUP] 44 [/SUP] said to him, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,and are you going to raise it up in three days?” 2:21 But Jesuswas speaking about the temple of his body.2:22 So after he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scriptureand the sayingthat Jesus had spoken.


John7:37 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day,Jesus stood up and shouted out,“If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 7:38 let the one who believes in me drink.Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’”

Yes and I suppose you think that if the Bible mentions Persia, it could not possibly be speaking of Iran.

 

[Timeline]

I agree a lot Job is foreshadowing of Jesus, just as much as is in the Psalms and yes I think both call Jesus a worm. But I think the worm describes his human side.. not that that matters because Jesus is still referred to as a worm imo. So I can see how this could go either way (Jesus or Lucifer) in Isaiah.

I was reading from an Hebrew/Greek/English Interlinear bible that is our "church" library and I found it to be more straightforward than the NASB or KJ. But, as I am sure that you will appreciate, there were several things that the NASB did not include that I found a little suspicious.

For example, in verse 4 the NASB says, "“...How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! And in the KJ it says, "...How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The interlinear says that "gold" should be there, but don't recall the word "city". I wrote it down but I don't have the paper with me. Anyway, both versions seemed to eliminate or slightly change the some of the words, but the NASB seemed to be a little worse about it. I felt like the KJ "pushed" the Hell aspect, but I guess I need to dig a little more before determining how these verses would be most accurately translated.

I can clearly see how the understanding of the translators effected how they translated the verses. I don't hold it against them, unless, of course they intentionally changed words or left them out in order to alter the meaning of the verse. Ultimately, the general idea is the same.

 

[KJV1611]

I was reading from an Hebrew/Greek/English Interlinear bible that is our "church" library and I found it to be more straightforward than the NASB or KJ. But, as I am sure that you will appreciate, there were several things that the NASB did not include that I found a little suspicious.

For example, in verse 4 the NASB says, "“...How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! And in the KJ it says, "...How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The interlinear says that "gold" should be there, but don't recall the word "city". I wrote it down but I don't have the paper with me. Anyway, both versions seemed to eliminate or slightly change the some of the words, but the NASB seemed to be a little worse about it. I felt like the KJ "pushed" the Hell aspect, but I guess I need to dig a little more before determining how these verses would be most accurately translated.

I can clearly see how the understanding of the translators effected how they translated the verses. I don't hold it against them, unless, of course they intentionally changed words or left them out in order to alter the meaning of the verse. Ultimately, the general idea is the same.

Yes, the golden city is earthly Jerusalem... The oppressor ceased and the golden city ceased. When Jesus came, satan was cast out of heaven and earthly Jerusalem came to an end.

I believe that every word in the bible matters, that's why I believe in divine preservation. If there's no divine preservation then we can not possible know what God intended, we are at the mercy of the translators... i.e. we really have no idea what God intended. I believe golden city is put there so we will know what Isaiah is talking about. This passage is about Christ, but it's Christ casting satan out of heaven and ending the kingdom for earthly Jerusalem.

 

[Timeline]

Yes, the golden city is earthly Jerusalem... The oppressor ceased and the golden city ceased. When Jesus came, satan was cast out of heaven and earthly Jerusalem came to an end.

I believe that every word in the bible matters, that's why I believe in divine preservation. If there's no divine preservation then we can not possible know what God intended, we are at the mercy of the translators... i.e. we really have no idea what God intended. I believe golden city is put there so we will know what Isaiah is talking about. This passage is about Christ, but it's Christ casting satan out of heaven and ending the kingdom for earthly Jerusalem.

Well, I still believe that anyone can be saved by reading the NASB, KJ, NKJ, ESV, and even the NIV - they just might know what "in the world" the prophecies are about

 

[Timeline]

Well, I still believe that anyone can be saved by reading the NASB, KJ, NKJ, ESV, and even the NIV - they just might know what "in the world" the prophecies are about

Actually, I am not sure if I am thinking about the right version when I said ESV - I haven't really read it much. I don't care for the "paraphrase" bibles at all.