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Thanks again. . .(gaming again?)
Ps 110:1 is not a "counterpart" to Mt 22:44 or Ac 2:34.
It is Mt 22:44 and Ac 2:34.
Counterparts would be 2Co 3:17, 18 and Ac 16:17; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11.
Nope. . .it follows that it represents the Father only when your OT example (Ps 110:1)
is quoted in the NT.
It does not extend to all NT uses of kurios.
Mt 22:44 and Ac 2:34 are Ps 110:1, where "LORD" is YHWH, and "Lord" is Adonai.
And I'm still waiting for you to show it.
Methinks to truly avoid committing hypocrisy again,
you're tossing the wrong example out from discussion.
I'm thinkin' that's not where the dead-ends are. . .
Your translation of Ac 8:39 is inadequate, at best.
Present another NT verse which corroborates that translation.
You're off topic (gaming again).
The topic is: In the NT, kurios means "Lord," and theos means "God."
The issue is not whether Jesus is God (theos). . .He is.
The issue is whether kurios in the NT means God (the Father).
The subject is: kurios (Lord) in 2Co 3:17,18: "The Lord is the Spirit."
1) It means the Lord Jesus Christ.
2) It is not saying the Lord is the Holy Spirit.
3) It is stating the co-equal relationship of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Ps 110:1 is not a "counterpart" to Mt 22:44 or Ac 2:34.
It is Mt 22:44 and Ac 2:34.
Counterparts would be 2Co 3:17, 18 and Ac 16:17; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11.
Nope. . .it follows that it represents the Father only when your OT example (Ps 110:1)
is quoted in the NT.
It does not extend to all NT uses of kurios.
Mt 22:44 and Ac 2:34 are Ps 110:1, where "LORD" is YHWH, and "Lord" is Adonai.
And I'm still waiting for you to show it.
Methinks to truly avoid committing hypocrisy again,
you're tossing the wrong example out from discussion.
I'm thinkin' that's not where the dead-ends are. . .
Your translation of Ac 8:39 is inadequate, at best.
Present another NT verse which corroborates that translation.
That Jesus is Theos was already proven in my Titus example on the merits of the established rules of Greek grammar completely independent of your denial of it.
theos translates God.
Just learn to accept this fact.
theos translates God.
Just learn to accept this fact.
The topic is: In the NT, kurios means "Lord," and theos means "God."
The issue is not whether Jesus is God (theos). . .He is.
The issue is whether kurios in the NT means God (the Father).
The subject is: kurios (Lord) in 2Co 3:17,18: "The Lord is the Spirit."
1) It means the Lord Jesus Christ.
2) It is not saying the Lord is the Holy Spirit.
3) It is stating the co-equal relationship of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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Show us...
Which it does.
Who, besides you, ever asserted that it does...?
I showed you the example that you asked for....now deal with it...
That would be 'Kurios' in the Greek.
No different than Theos in the NT being the translation from Yahweh in the Hebrew.
You really don't know anything regarding the original languages, do you...?
Are you ready to admit that Moses dealt with Yahweh?
You've already exposed yourself for NOT knowing any Greek whatsoever....so this would be yet another meritless assertion on your part.
Perhaps you can tell us of the Greek article in that verse?
No, you can't...
Show us the lexical definitions...
You finally admit this.
I have shown that it does.
That's NOT even what the Greek states...rotflol!!!
Exegete it step by step...instead of assuming....this should be fun to watch since you are Greek illiterate...
Which it does.
Who, besides you, ever asserted that it does...?
I showed you the example that you asked for....now deal with it...
That would be 'Kurios' in the Greek.
No different than Theos in the NT being the translation from Yahweh in the Hebrew.
You really don't know anything regarding the original languages, do you...?
Are you ready to admit that Moses dealt with Yahweh?
You've already exposed yourself for NOT knowing any Greek whatsoever....so this would be yet another meritless assertion on your part.
Perhaps you can tell us of the Greek article in that verse?
No, you can't...
Show us the lexical definitions...
You finally admit this.
I have shown that it does.
That's NOT even what the Greek states...rotflol!!!
Exegete it step by step...instead of assuming....this should be fun to watch since you are Greek illiterate...
1
Of course you don't understand The Trinity because it is a "Mystery". The Bible says in 1 Tim 3:16 - 1 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV)
"16*And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
This statement agrees with The Gospel of John. In Chapter 1, we read "1*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". As you might know Jesus Christ is The Word of God, He Created everything.
Please read the entire Colossians 1, in verse 15 we read "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation. 16*For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17*And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18*And He is the head of the body, the Church, who is the beginning, The First Born from the dead, that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE."
QUOTE=Eagleridge;903541]This is a very sensitive subject matter but I feel needs to be exposed - the Bible lets us know that "Holy men of God" were inspired by the Holy Ghost to write the Books that make up the Bible - I do not pretend to be one of them but ...I was born again (water and Spirit) 30 years ago and live my life in the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and I specify that because there are 2 doctrines - God's and man's interpretation(s) of God's - the latter, subject to the influences in our lives (parents, teachers, friends, environment etc.) - prompts the question: "How can we know what God's doctrine is?" Let me begin......there are also..... 2 "kinds" of Christians ...those that readily believe that God is ONE but....made up of 3 entities (no other way to put it) ....the Trinity....not found in the Bible...and in the time of Christ on earth not even conceived....that's why the disciples had no trouble believing what they'd been taught to believe all their lives, from infancy......told day after day..."Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is ONE Lord".....why do you think Jehovah had them say that to their children from the day they were born? Because He knew that the time would come, when man would believe a "man doctrine" that would teach that He was a triune entity.....and that day didn't come until 300 years after Christ was risen at a council in Nicea by a group of men (no mention that they were holy men of God)....The Bible tells us that "God is the same, yesterday, today and forever." So tell me this; why would He tell his people for thousands of years that He was ONE (use terms like "no other beside me, I ALONE, before Abraham I AM etc.") ....never even imply that He had a Son and...and a Holy Ghost?????? with Him...and come along at a council 300 years (no less) after Christ left the earth only to tell them that "by the way, there are 3 of us here but we still only make up ONE)? say what?... a change? but I thought He didn't change ...Oops ....then we have those that believe that God really is ONE who MANIFESTED Himself as a man so that he could reconcile the world back to himself on a cross (shed blood - a Spirit cannot shed blood but, a man can) - Just like He was able to manifest Himself as a burning bush, an angel, a bird, a pillar of fire, a cloud by day, a fourth in the fiery furnace, He manifested himself as a MAN but didn't change who he was - the terms Father and Son are terms used to accomodate our finite minds - that's why the Bible tells us that he was BEGOTTEN in time (at some point in time God became Man in the person of Jesus Christ) but wait.....I'll tell you why most people don't get all that....it has to be revealed....the natural mind cannot grasp it (I Cor 2:14) ...these things have to be REVEALED to those that really want to know the TRUTH (the whole TRUTH) and not some interpretation of IT. I have so much more on the subject...if you want more.....and you have the heart of a seeker...let me know..I'll e-mail you some fascinating insights into this erroneous TRINITY......Paul [/QUOTE]
"16*And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
This statement agrees with The Gospel of John. In Chapter 1, we read "1*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". As you might know Jesus Christ is The Word of God, He Created everything.
Please read the entire Colossians 1, in verse 15 we read "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation. 16*For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17*And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18*And He is the head of the body, the Church, who is the beginning, The First Born from the dead, that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE."
QUOTE=Eagleridge;903541]This is a very sensitive subject matter but I feel needs to be exposed - the Bible lets us know that "Holy men of God" were inspired by the Holy Ghost to write the Books that make up the Bible - I do not pretend to be one of them but ...I was born again (water and Spirit) 30 years ago and live my life in the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and I specify that because there are 2 doctrines - God's and man's interpretation(s) of God's - the latter, subject to the influences in our lives (parents, teachers, friends, environment etc.) - prompts the question: "How can we know what God's doctrine is?" Let me begin......there are also..... 2 "kinds" of Christians ...those that readily believe that God is ONE but....made up of 3 entities (no other way to put it) ....the Trinity....not found in the Bible...and in the time of Christ on earth not even conceived....that's why the disciples had no trouble believing what they'd been taught to believe all their lives, from infancy......told day after day..."Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is ONE Lord".....why do you think Jehovah had them say that to their children from the day they were born? Because He knew that the time would come, when man would believe a "man doctrine" that would teach that He was a triune entity.....and that day didn't come until 300 years after Christ was risen at a council in Nicea by a group of men (no mention that they were holy men of God)....The Bible tells us that "God is the same, yesterday, today and forever." So tell me this; why would He tell his people for thousands of years that He was ONE (use terms like "no other beside me, I ALONE, before Abraham I AM etc.") ....never even imply that He had a Son and...and a Holy Ghost?????? with Him...and come along at a council 300 years (no less) after Christ left the earth only to tell them that "by the way, there are 3 of us here but we still only make up ONE)? say what?... a change? but I thought He didn't change ...Oops ....then we have those that believe that God really is ONE who MANIFESTED Himself as a man so that he could reconcile the world back to himself on a cross (shed blood - a Spirit cannot shed blood but, a man can) - Just like He was able to manifest Himself as a burning bush, an angel, a bird, a pillar of fire, a cloud by day, a fourth in the fiery furnace, He manifested himself as a MAN but didn't change who he was - the terms Father and Son are terms used to accomodate our finite minds - that's why the Bible tells us that he was BEGOTTEN in time (at some point in time God became Man in the person of Jesus Christ) but wait.....I'll tell you why most people don't get all that....it has to be revealed....the natural mind cannot grasp it (I Cor 2:14) ...these things have to be REVEALED to those that really want to know the TRUTH (the whole TRUTH) and not some interpretation of IT. I have so much more on the subject...if you want more.....and you have the heart of a seeker...let me know..I'll e-mail you some fascinating insights into this erroneous TRINITY......Paul [/QUOTE]
Like 2Co 3:17, 18, they present Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one, in co-equal relationship.
Agreed. . .kurios is YHWH in the OT Ps 110:1, quoted in the NT.
Agreed. . .the word kurios always means "lord" in the NT,
and the word theos always means "god" in the NT.
And as theos refers to the Father over 1300 times in the NT,
so likewise, kurios refers to the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, hundreds of times in the NT.
When you show that I have denied it.
Please present another NT verse which corroborates your meaning in your differing translation.
Falls to you to refute it.
Agreed. . .kurios is YHWH in the OT Ps 110:1, quoted in the NT.
Agreed. . .the word kurios always means "lord" in the NT,
and the word theos always means "god" in the NT.
And as theos refers to the Father over 1300 times in the NT,
so likewise, kurios refers to the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, hundreds of times in the NT.
When you show that I have denied it.
Please present another NT verse which corroborates your meaning in your differing translation.
Falls to you to refute it.
Again...and?
Detail to us how this supposedly diminishes Jesus' deity.
All you do is bring forth Trinitarian English renderings without explaining them....and then you want us to tell you how it supposedly supports your worldview.
If you were confident, then you would explain to us how this has bearing on Jesus being Theos, as already proven to Elin, as a fact of Greek grammar.
You people are such scriptural light-weights...and yet you think that your reference-less assertions actually mean anything at all...
you are bringing up another issue....I never mentioned anything about Jesus deity....what I am showing you in the scripture is.....we see God the Father and our Lord Jesus in the transference of power ...no one else...where is the trinity in that????
there is no three way split....from Father to Son ..then back to Father....
then you tell me who gave Jesus all power...and why did he not give the third person some power??? or is there no transferring of power???
1 Corinthians 15:26-28King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
there is no three way split....from Father to Son ..then back to Father....
then you tell me who gave Jesus all power...and why did he not give the third person some power??? or is there no transferring of power???
1 Corinthians 15:26-28King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
And this diminishes Jesus' deity, how, exactly...?
Btw...you forgot to mention that the Holy Spirit comes forth from The Son....again, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was sent by The Son.
Study up.
Oh....you still think they are the same thing......................NOT...
And?
You want to defend this Trinitarian passage.....or just let me tell you what it means....?
You couldn't explain your way out of a.....wet.....paper....bag.....
Btw...you forgot to mention that the Holy Spirit comes forth from The Son....again, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was sent by The Son.
Study up.
Oh....you still think they are the same thing......................NOT...
And?
You want to defend this Trinitarian passage.....or just let me tell you what it means....?
You couldn't explain your way out of a.....wet.....paper....bag.....
My gerbil puts forth more effort...
No.
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
No.
G2316
θεός
Theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number:
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with
G3588) the supreme Divinity
Citing in TDNT:
3:65, 322
No.
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
No.
G2316
θεός
Theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number:
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with
G3588) the supreme Divinity
Citing in TDNT:
3:65, 322
Re: My gerbil puts forth more effort...
Since kurios means Lord Jesus Christ hundreds of times, it would be helpful if
you supplied three NT verses where the NT writers' use of kurios
is translated "God" (preferably not from the KJV),
even though that would not be an indication of its general usage,
as is the number of times it is translated "lord."
Since theos means "god" hundreds and hundreds of times it would be helpful if
you provided three NT verses each where the NT writers' use oftheos
is translated the Son and Holy Spirit
(preferably not from the KJV, which I find to be less accurate),
even though that would not be an indication of its general usage,
as is the number of times it is translated "god."
And I'm still waiting for you to show the OT counterpart of 2Co 3;17, 18.
Since kurios means Lord Jesus Christ hundreds of times, it would be helpful if
you supplied three NT verses where the NT writers' use of kurios
is translated "God" (preferably not from the KJV),
even though that would not be an indication of its general usage,
as is the number of times it is translated "lord."
Since theos means "god" hundreds and hundreds of times it would be helpful if
you provided three NT verses each where the NT writers' use oftheos
is translated the Son and Holy Spirit
(preferably not from the KJV, which I find to be less accurate),
even though that would not be an indication of its general usage,
as is the number of times it is translated "god."
And I'm still waiting for you to show the OT counterpart of 2Co 3;17, 18.
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For the 1,000th time...
And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him. Judas said to Him, not the Iscariot, Lord, what has happened that You are about to reveal Yourself to us and not at all to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. I leave peace to you; My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be timid. You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it occurs, that when it shall occur you may believe. I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, even as the Father commanded Me, so I do. Rise up, let us go from here.(John 14.16 – 31)
As context reveals, that while The Comforter is sent in Jesus’ name, He is most definitely NOT Jesus.
Further, you just hamstrung yourself as context shows that Father, Son and Spirit are present with the believers.
This is The Trinity!
And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.(John 15.26)
And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him. Judas said to Him, not the Iscariot, Lord, what has happened that You are about to reveal Yourself to us and not at all to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. I leave peace to you; My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be timid. You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it occurs, that when it shall occur you may believe. I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, even as the Father commanded Me, so I do. Rise up, let us go from here.(John 14.16 – 31)
As context reveals, that while The Comforter is sent in Jesus’ name, He is most definitely NOT Jesus.
Further, you just hamstrung yourself as context shows that Father, Son and Spirit are present with the believers.
This is The Trinity!
And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.(John 15.26)