Did Christ do enough to save us?

[PeterJens]

we do not reject the Word of God, we do reject your ( wrong ) interpretation of it.

I am at a loss.

I speak the words that Christ uttered, with the meaning he gave it yet that
is not right.

I talk of having a clean heart, of forgiving from the heart and walking blamelessly
in purity and holiness, yet that is not right.

I talk of repenting of ones sins, confessing ones sins and being healed of hurts deep
within, yet that is not right.

These are not issues of interpretation, but issues of spirituality and life.
Even your own ranks do these things while denying the theology or obedience behind them.

But if your heart is hard, ofcourse none of this makes sense. Because these are all issues
of the heart, of relationship, of guilt, of getting right with others.

So I do not write this because of you, but for others who might read and understand the
spiritual divide that stands between us, that cannot be bridged unless one establishes a clean
heart. As Jesus says, unless you are born from on High, you cannot understand the things
of Christ or even listen to His voice.

 

[gb9]

no peter, I do understand, I understand that we cannot just pluck out verses and build theology around them. context has to be used.

I also know that before we declare ourselves clean, pure, holy, we have to use the Biblical definition of sin, not just declare so because we feel so. God is not interested in our opinion about ourselves.

 

[garee]

You are following an ethic which says if I talk about myself that is wrong, or others.
I have to talk about Jesus exclusively except he says things like this,


Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matt 6:1-4

Notice the highlighted words. And notice "your righteousness". Jesus is saying we are
righteous, walking in His ways, acceptable and blessed by Him.

So it appears to me you are following a different morality to Christ and a different system
of good and evil.

So I do not understand your reference, because it simply is not sane, but it is imprisoning
and condemning, so you reject the very word of God.

Our righteousness is Christ in us. Not of us, lest any man boast in false pride and make His grace without effect..

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ.No man will be found with a righteousness of their own selves.

Those who say they do have, have received their reward .

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The faith of Christ is the work of Christ as it says, it, Christ's faith is unto all and upon all.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Again through the work of Christ faith which is of God by His work of faith.

What is some believe not (no faith) .Shall their unbelief make the work of the faith of God without effect.(Romans 3:3-4)

The righteousness of Christ is compared to a pearl .


Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:Who, when he had found "one pearl"of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.Mat 13:44

We have that treasure of His righteousness in our heart but would never think it was of us .Those who think do have, have their reward.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency "of the power" may be of God, and not of us

 

[PeterJens]

no peter, I do understand, I understand that we cannot just pluck out verses and build theology around them. context has to be used.

I also know that before we declare ourselves clean, pure, holy, we have to use the Biblical definition of sin, not just declare so because we feel so. God is not interested in our opinion about ourselves.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
John 15:3

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:13-14

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Eph 1:7

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matt 26:28

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-47

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Can we know God without having a pure heart?
I think the answer is no. Without asking Christ into your heart and allowing Him to
change your perspective, how can you ever know God?

And if you do not see the purity of Christ and your need to be cleansed how can you
ever have experienced new birth?

So what appears to be a common theme of those who oppose this view, is their
lack of purity. So it suggests to me, that purity is an alien experience to them

No I am happy to be corrected, but nothing is being indicated that this has happened.
Please do share your purity or sense of a lack of purity, so we can confirm what you
actually know and experience.

I do concede that saying I am a christian, or clean, or forgiven is based on promises
written in scripture, and this could all be false. All of us are constrained by this limitation.

What matters to me is comparing all the aspects of life and coming to a conclusion.
And my conclusion is I believe Christ and the apostles.

 

[Grace777x70]

The fine linen in Revelation is the righteousness of Christ. Our righteous acts do not make us righteous. They could be the fruit of being righteous. There are deeds of righteousness that stem from His life in us.

Deeds do not produce righteousness - the righteousness of Christ alone produces the real deeds that come from a manifestation of His life in us.

Every religion in the world has "good deeds of righteousness" in them. It's the classis "good side and fruit" of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This is where our humanistic thinking creates a self-righteousness/holiness mindset and in reality we are denying the work of Christ. This has the "appearance" of godliness but denies the power of God to reflect the exchanged life that is in the new creation in Christ.

Revelation 19:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

How do we make ourselves ready? By believing in what Christ has done by grace through faith. We receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Having this life of Christ in us will bear much fruit but it is a product of His fruit and life being manifested in us.

 

[PeterJens]

Our righteousness is Christ in us. Not of us, lest any man boast in false pride and make His grace without effect..

I understand your point of view. A washed, holy, pure, blameless man of God is still
a sinner, unrighteous and unworthy.

So everything that talks of righteousness is Jesus's righteousness being imputed on
the believer. This is an interpretation.

The problem with this interpretation, is why then does Paul rebuke believers of
commiting sin and they need to repent? Repentance is to restore righteousness, or holiness.

In the law of Moses, defilement is something you must avoid. You cannot enter
the temple if you are defiled. The pharisees behaved in particular ways to not become
defiled, it was one of their main themes of life.

In Christ defilement equally matters, but the shadow has gone, though the spiritual
realities remain. What comes from the heart defiles one, as James describes

We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
James 3:2

But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 5:14

Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
James 1:4

If you believe you can still walk in sin, knowingly and have fellowship with God,
you are sadly mistaken. We are called saints, Gods Holy people for a reason.

 

[PeterJens]

The fine linen in Revelation is the righteousness of Christ. Our righteous acts do not make us righteous. They could be the fruit of being righteous. There are deeds of righteousness that stem from His life in us.

Deeds do not produce righteousness - the righteousness of Christ alone produces the real deeds that come from a manifestation of His life in us.

Every religion in the world has "good deeds of righteousness" in them. It's the classis "good side and fruit" of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I see how you mix concepts together, confuse them and then draw out your own
condemnation.

Jesus says God's people do righteous deeds.
I have yet to see those not of Gods people doing righteous deeds.

Good deeds exist, deeds of love in life. Giving a toy to a child is a gift of love.
The gift may be given out of confusion, out of a desire to do the right thing,
because the child responds well to these toys, or just from love.

What matters is in Christ we know how to show love.

But I suspect your group do not actually know how to do this, which is why
talking about Jesus is the only thing you can focus, because the gnawing
doubt is the heart which is impure and conflicted knows nothing.

So you think I am the same, which is your belief system. So I must be lying
and a hypocrite, and be full of malice and hatred, not able to admit my total
failure to walk like Christ, and only believe in failure my dependency on Him.

This is why I share, you need to open up your heart and let God in.
And I know it hurts, I know the pain involved, I know the impossible mountains
of struggle and disappointment, because I have had them also.

But God has healed me, and made me whole, which is why I write as I do, and
am speaking like a alien to trapped people. Jesus came to set us free, not a little
bit, but completely, though freedom is to be a slave to righteousness, because in
righteousness is true life, love, brotherhood, sharing, openness, acceptance.

 

[PeterJens]

I humbly thank you for your sharing, which I know costs you all greatly.
I am slow to learn because I am limited by my own understanding and perspectives.

You are expanding my understanding of how you got to where you are, and why
I will never follow you, because I literally cannot, because I have already opened my
heart and know the principles upon which I stand in Christ, Halleluyah.

 

[PeterJens]

we do not reject the Word of God, we do reject your ( wrong ) interpretation of it.

You and I explore our differences. I know from past experiences it takes a long time to
see another's mindset and influences. Some hate this exposure, like it is taking away the
ability to criticise without exposure.

The humerous side of our frameworks, is ofcourse believing one set of ideas, excludes another
and each group believe they are "right" and the otherside "wrong". It is interesting you feel you
need to emphasis this.

In the extreme God is right and we either walk in His ways or are wrong and sinful.
He is willing for us to learn His ways and walk as best we can.

So if you want to love and help me, you need to show me where I am wrong.

If in reality you are just reflecting your heart condition through your theology, then
it would explain why you actually have no argument, because you can only justify your
stand by adding an interpretation to words that are not their.

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 2:24

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
Gal 3:11

You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 2:22-24

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

So walking like Christ is our goal, to walk in His footsteps.
To be able to do this we will need the mind and heart of Christ.

We will have to focus our minds differently, what we value and what
we reject will have to change, how we look at others, what we regard
as a blessing and what we regard as bad behaviour.

Most of all we will need an open loving heart. To take blows and bear
the pain and then forgive those who inflict injury without knowing why.

Glory to Christ, this is our calling.
I am sure this is too far from where you are to register, but to the brethren
it will help.

 

[gb9]

You and I explore our differences. I know from past experiences it takes a long time to
see another's mindset and influences. Some hate this exposure, like it is taking away the
ability to criticise without exposure.

The humerous side of our frameworks, is ofcourse believing one set of ideas, excludes another
and each group believe they are "right" and the otherside "wrong". It is interesting you feel you
need to emphasis this.

In the extreme God is right and we either walk in His ways or are wrong and sinful.
He is willing for us to learn His ways and walk as best we can.

So if you want to love and help me, you need to show me where I am wrong.

If in reality you are just reflecting your heart condition through your theology, then
it would explain why you actually have no argument, because you can only justify your
stand by adding an interpretation to words that are not their.

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 2:24

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
Gal 3:11

You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 2:22-24

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

So walking like Christ is our goal, to walk in His footsteps.
To be able to do this we will need the mind and heart of Christ.

We will have to focus our minds differently, what we value and what
we reject will have to change, how we look at others, what we regard
as a blessing and what we regard as bad behaviour.

Most of all we will need an open loving heart. To take blows and bear
the pain and then forgive those who inflict injury without knowing why.

Glory to Christ, this is our calling.
I am sure this is too far from where you are to register, but to the brethren
it will help.

peter, believe or not, I like you. really. you hunger and thirst for righteousness and have a zeal for God that is to admired.

but, the reason I tell to use the Biblical definition of sin is that is what God uses. so if one wants to call themselves holy, pure, and righteous , then those are the standards one MUST use. hope this makes sense.

 

[PeterJens]

peter, believe or not, I like you. really. you hunger and thirst for righteousness and have a zeal for God that is to admired.

but, the reason I tell to use the Biblical definition of sin is that is what God uses. so if one wants to call themselves holy, pure, and righteous , then those are the standards one MUST use. hope this makes sense.

I thought you were not a legalist?
Have you got a list of standards you use to check and judge people against?

I use the law of Christ. But this just gives me a small insight into a problem.
Love and walking with Christ gives me the washing and freedom in Christ.

It is like when people say sharing about things of God means I have pride,
arrogance, and unbelief.

Pride - holding up something not worthy of praise.
Arrogance - standing for something not entitled to
Unbelief - denying a promise or position in Christ.

What did God say to Peter in regard to unclean animals,

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
Acts 10:15

Unbelief would be to deny this.

So the cross has forgiven our sins, we are washed and temples of the Holy Spirit.

To deny this has happened after believing and walking in faith would be unbelief.

But on the other hand if you have in your head assented to Christ but in your
heart remained closed, then truly you are not Holy or redeemed or clean.

So it would be arrogant to deny your internal realities, or what had taken place
or not in this case.

When we repent and confess our sins, this is a general positional event, because
we do not conceive all our sins or how we should walk until we are pure.

But when washed we are clean.

Your language implies you do not believe this is true. Big difference and very legalistic.

 

[garee]

I understand your point of view. A washed, holy, pure, blameless man of God is still a sinner, unrighteous and unworthy.

No man could be worthy of salivation/redemption, as if one could be found with a righteousness of their own selves. They, I believe have received their reward, as boasting rights.

If God would take in account even one sin, even the least as to the wage, eternal damnation. Who could stand before His throne of grace and receive mercy?

He either forgives all of or iniquities or He forgives none.

David, a sinner crying out as if from the depths of hell. I believe makes that point.

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?But “there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared” .I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Psa 130:1

So everything that talks of righteousness is Jesus's righteousness being imputed on the believer. This is an interpretation.

The scriptures are God’s interpretation to us. We believe what he says as He gives us ears hear to what the Spirit says.

The hearing of His faith that works in us is not of us lest any man boast.

He says it would be foolish to think His work ,the hearing of faith is not imputed us. If He has begun the good work of redemption (his faithfulnes) he will finish it all the way to the end of the age. .

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the “works of the law”, or by the “hearing of faith”?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was “accounted to him” for righteousness. Gal 3:1-6

An imputed righteousness “accounted to him”

If you believe you can still walk in sin, knowingly and have fellowship with God, you are sadly mistaken. We are called saints, Gods Holy people for a reason.

No one is claiming that strawman .We all have sinned and continue to fall short of His glory all the days of our lives.Or we make God out to be the liar.

 

[garee]

What did God say to Peter in regard to unclean animals,

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
Acts 10:15

Unbelief would be to deny this.

Yes it would deny “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

 

[PeterJens]

No man could be worthy of salivation/redemption, as if one could be found with a righteousness of their own selves. They, I believe have received their reward, as boasting rights.

All the note is without merit, because it is not answering my point, just reframing it as
if I am talking about a sinner trying to justify themselves before God.

If you cannot be honest and actually make the jump to what I am talking about,
there is actually no conversation. It is just a waste of time.

God bless, not a good witness to following Christ, God help you.

 

[blessedjohn80]

Faith and religion are real if they go into ones heart.

Now I am not projecting anything onto anyone. I have just been sharing about how
God sees us in Christ. But it seems you cannot cope with this, or accept we can walk
blamelessly before him.

Of course you would say you are not projecting, because that would mean you are imperfect and since you claim you are not, anyone who is contrary to your beliefs you can easily call them out for it. You are consistent in claiming to walk perfectly and consistent that others are not. Based on what? Because of what you see? Or what you don't see? Good works? "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." If the scriptures are true how is it that you see the flesh only?

Seems like your true belief foundations are of the flesh not the spirit.

Listen to this in Revelations

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
Rev 19:7-8

Don't you mean imputed righteous acts of God's holy people? How else were they made clean, is it not by the blood of the Lamb?
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Are you claiming again that man can come to Jesus on his own?

If Gods people are not holy, and the acts are not righteous, who are
these people being spoken about?

Again wrong foundation of truth can lead to blindness. Seems you forgot the meaning of the Holy communion. Remember? "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
What does forgiveness of sins mean? Righteousness, holiness. Both imputed.

I am testifying to Gods provision to all, and how washed and clean His people
truly are.

Praise God! We are clean because of the blood of Jesus. And we partake of that provision and cleanliness through belief and faith!

Strangely you are rejecting Gods work of the cross for His bride and people.
Is this because you have not opened up your heart and let him in?

I believe in imputed righteousness so I don't get your logic at all. You're the one who keeps insisting that good works is necessary to stay saved so I would say you are projecting right now.

I am not condemning you, I am just puzzled at how Gods word does not echo
with your experience.

I'm puzzled how you came to know what my experience is.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm puzzled how you came to know what my experience is.

When two people talk about something, like reaching the top of a mountain,
and the view opens up before you and you go wow.

If you have done this as well, you say, I know that. That is echoing in someone else.

Spiritual things work like this as well, but we obviously have different experiences
else you would know what I am talking about.

So I know your experience is different to mine, I hope you understand this.
I also share this because I know many who relate exactly to what I describe.

 

[blessedjohn80]

I humbly thank you for your sharing, which I know costs you all greatly.
I am slow to learn because I am limited by my own understanding and perspectives.

You are expanding my understanding of how you got to where you are, and why
I will never follow you, because I literally cannot, because I have already opened my
heart and know the principles upon which I stand in Christ, Halleluyah.

This is not a discussion about who follows who. In the first place we are talking about following Christ yet somehow the more you talk the more you reveal what your heart really is. You're basically implying that we should follow you. It's a little scary how one tries to justify himself so much he forgets who he's following.

 

[PeterJens]

This is not a discussion about who follows who. In the first place we are talking about following Christ yet somehow the more you talk the more you reveal what your heart really is. You're basically implying that we should follow you. It's a little scary how one tries to justify himself so much he forgets who he's following.

No clue how you get here.
I follow my Lord. All I am called to do is share my heart and love for Christ.

God bless, "You all I want, You are all I have ever needed Amen"

 

[blessedjohn80]

No clue how you get here.
I follow my Lord. All I am called to do is share my heart and love for Christ.

God bless, "You all I want, You are all I have ever needed Amen"

Right.

Anyway, this wasn't really a good post for you though. Jesus said "It is finished" for a reason. God's "Yes" is definitely a "Yes".

God bless and Peace.

 

[mystic7]

This is a key question. Did Christ do enough to save us?
No.

So bro what more do you think Jesus should have done?
He left His Glory to become a man, to save us from eternal damnation, He gave His Word, which our guide/strength for salvation and He gave His Holy Spirit so we can accomplish His Word.
One area Jesus cannot do as with Satan, is to force your Will. (God Himself cannot do it or allows it) If you believe you will walk in obedience to God’s Word.
The Angels were created sinless, yet they choose to rebel against God. Adam and Eve were created sinless, yet they choose to disobey God. And we know the results of their choice.
God’s greatest gift to man was, He created them as an individual, with his own Will. Not as a programmed robot.
Through signs and wonders (Old Testaments) God tried through Fear, change man’s Will to follow Him. But it didn’t work. The blood of animals was not enough; it became a ritual and meaningless.
Under the new covenant, God gave not only His Son but the Holy Spirit to every believer (unfortunately, my views, most Christians do not know Him).
God is not in the spoon-feeding business, He is the God of our salvation, the Bible is God’s salvation plan for our lives but is by our choice/Will to believe and follow; it only way to go home.