Did Christ do enough to save us?
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Do you understand irony? A lot of summaries when you look at them are a lie.
It is why you have to be prepared for a fuller explanation to see if you agree or
not with the meaning someone is putting on a idea.
Christ did enough to save us, if we do what we are told to do.
If Christ saved us without our involvement, we are universalists or believers in election
without choice.
Now if you are not in either of these two groups, you believe salvation involves
you response as well.
So I was being culturally provocative, because in our culture, Jesus saves is true,
assuming our response is part of this summary.
But there are those who do not accept this, so I had to exclude it in the summary.
And spelling out what I mean for some is very condescending, but it appears some
are not bright enough to understand this point.
It is why you have to be prepared for a fuller explanation to see if you agree or
not with the meaning someone is putting on a idea.
Christ did enough to save us, if we do what we are told to do.
If Christ saved us without our involvement, we are universalists or believers in election
without choice.
Now if you are not in either of these two groups, you believe salvation involves
you response as well.
So I was being culturally provocative, because in our culture, Jesus saves is true,
assuming our response is part of this summary.
But there are those who do not accept this, so I had to exclude it in the summary.
And spelling out what I mean for some is very condescending, but it appears some
are not bright enough to understand this point.
N
I'm not disagreeing with your logic, peterjens. And honestly I think you're very gutsy for posting this at all.
The problem with posts like this to me is: God created everyone to be an individual. Life would be quite boring if He hadn't, in fact (to me). So for you to call other people's belief heresy is no different that the heretics of CHrist's day trying to call Him out (they didn't know He was God and thought He was just another person). We aren't called to tell everyone else their beliefs are wrong or to call them names, but simply to love them. Through us loving people, we are showing them God because God IS Love.
Telling people their beliefs is heresy isn't very loving to me, and will illicit a strong reaction from many....even other believers who may agree with you in theory, but disagree with your methods.
Anyways, that's my two cents about these sorts of posts. You're free to your way of doing things.
Peace
The problem with posts like this to me is: God created everyone to be an individual. Life would be quite boring if He hadn't, in fact (to me). So for you to call other people's belief heresy is no different that the heretics of CHrist's day trying to call Him out (they didn't know He was God and thought He was just another person). We aren't called to tell everyone else their beliefs are wrong or to call them names, but simply to love them. Through us loving people, we are showing them God because God IS Love.
Telling people their beliefs is heresy isn't very loving to me, and will illicit a strong reaction from many....even other believers who may agree with you in theory, but disagree with your methods.
Anyways, that's my two cents about these sorts of posts. You're free to your way of doing things.
Peace
Language. It does not matter if I said yes or no to this question. Without explanation
I could mean the same or opposite things.
What I am pointing out is in this community assumptions no longer hold true, and the
actual faith being expressed needs to be expanded.
Some say the faith we believe in is a gift, so not our own, others that faith comes because
we are now born again so now have faith as its fruit. I do not know, but faith has to be
there. And our participation cannot be downplayed to the degree the believer does not
matter, because the whole point of the cross, is the Lord is saying we matter so so so
much to God and He is giving us so much as a friend, servant and Lord.
I am beginning to think our gnostic denegration of the individual has made us too
extreme in seeing how much God values us and desires we walk with Him.
I could mean the same or opposite things.
What I am pointing out is in this community assumptions no longer hold true, and the
actual faith being expressed needs to be expanded.
Some say the faith we believe in is a gift, so not our own, others that faith comes because
we are now born again so now have faith as its fruit. I do not know, but faith has to be
there. And our participation cannot be downplayed to the degree the believer does not
matter, because the whole point of the cross, is the Lord is saying we matter so so so
much to God and He is giving us so much as a friend, servant and Lord.
I am beginning to think our gnostic denegration of the individual has made us too
extreme in seeing how much God values us and desires we walk with Him.
The protestant reformation was about the interpretation of scripture and the role
of the church.
So I know this is not that revolutionary.
Being baptist, methodist, puritan, anabaptist would all hold with obedience to Gods word.
Without obedience, how could one claim to be saved or to know Christ?
The problem is people have been preaching rebellion under a different name and it is not
being challenged. And the response shows you have just accepted this rebellion without
realising it is a denial of the cross and belief in Christ.
Salvation has always been about a two way conversation. We are the branches, we are
part of the body and part of Christ. We are significant, and if you ignore this reality, you
ignore what Christ is saying. You are my friends, I have told you everything.
of the church.
So I know this is not that revolutionary.
Being baptist, methodist, puritan, anabaptist would all hold with obedience to Gods word.
Without obedience, how could one claim to be saved or to know Christ?
The problem is people have been preaching rebellion under a different name and it is not
being challenged. And the response shows you have just accepted this rebellion without
realising it is a denial of the cross and belief in Christ.
Salvation has always been about a two way conversation. We are the branches, we are
part of the body and part of Christ. We are significant, and if you ignore this reality, you
ignore what Christ is saying. You are my friends, I have told you everything.
I'm not disagreeing with your logic, peterjens. And honestly I think you're very gutsy for posting this at all.
The problem with posts like this to me is: God created everyone to be an individual. Life would be quite boring if He hadn't, in fact (to me). So for you to call other people's belief heresy is no different that the heretics of CHrist's day trying to call Him out (they didn't know He was God and thought He was just another person). We aren't called to tell everyone else their beliefs are wrong or to call them names, but simply to love them. Through us loving people, we are showing them God because God IS Love.
Telling people their beliefs is heresy isn't very loving to me, and will illicit a strong reaction from many....even other believers who may agree with you in theory, but disagree with your methods.
Anyways, that's my two cents about these sorts of posts. You're free to your way of doing things.
Peace
The problem with posts like this to me is: God created everyone to be an individual. Life would be quite boring if He hadn't, in fact (to me). So for you to call other people's belief heresy is no different that the heretics of CHrist's day trying to call Him out (they didn't know He was God and thought He was just another person). We aren't called to tell everyone else their beliefs are wrong or to call them names, but simply to love them. Through us loving people, we are showing them God because God IS Love.
Telling people their beliefs is heresy isn't very loving to me, and will illicit a strong reaction from many....even other believers who may agree with you in theory, but disagree with your methods.
Anyways, that's my two cents about these sorts of posts. You're free to your way of doing things.
Peace
No place in Scripture remotely suggests patronization of false teachers. Rather, open rebuke for this is the running theme and treatment for this throughout the Scriptures. Note Galatians 1:8-10 concerning the changing of the Gospel to a false gospel, and how solemn and severely these are dealt with for their error.
Before 'love' is brought back up, pitting it against the Scriptures, please keep in mind this is Scriptures way of 'loving' false teachers; they are to be rebuked and held accountable and called upon to repent of their error. Patronizing them or their teachings isn't close to being Biblical, and would make us partakers with them, note in Galatians how Paul treated Peter; that is a biblical example of love of the truth, hatred for heresy, and love of a straying brother.
We should all reexamine the Scriptures on how we specifically deal with the false teachers and false teachings, and it isn't to commend them for being gutsy or to patronize them either. Sentimentalism has no place in dealing with this. Forgive me for being 'gutsy' but I'm making a proper and biblical stand for the truth.
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Now please show me any church were to do nothing with Christ is all a believer
needs to do to be saved.
I would say there is literally only the universalist groups who believe we are all
saved, so nothing really matters, just a question of time.
What I have noticed is the subtle attack against anyone who holds any conditions
on salvation, as if this is true spirituality, when actually it is the opposite and a
tactic of the enemy.
But it simply does not work if you challenge its foundations, because they are
founded on people who do not read their bibles or are really interested in faith
at all, just guilt appeasement.
needs to do to be saved.
I would say there is literally only the universalist groups who believe we are all
saved, so nothing really matters, just a question of time.
What I have noticed is the subtle attack against anyone who holds any conditions
on salvation, as if this is true spirituality, when actually it is the opposite and a
tactic of the enemy.
But it simply does not work if you challenge its foundations, because they are
founded on people who do not read their bibles or are really interested in faith
at all, just guilt appeasement.
True faith in Christ WILL produce works FACT! Everything you mentioned about what takes place is not prescriptive in order to become a Christian it is descriptive of somebody who is a Christian.
How can one repent without Gods intervention?
How can one obey without Gods intervention?
The signs of repentance and obedience to Christ are simply the fruit of a heart thats already been changed and transformed. This is how one CAN repent and do all those things you mentioned. I understand what your saying but Jesus sufficiency on the cross is enough, period.
John 19:30 "...It is finished"
How can one repent without Gods intervention?
How can one obey without Gods intervention?
The signs of repentance and obedience to Christ are simply the fruit of a heart thats already been changed and transformed. This is how one CAN repent and do all those things you mentioned. I understand what your saying but Jesus sufficiency on the cross is enough, period.
John 19:30 "...It is finished"
I think my answer to your point is simple, we need to define what is believed and whether
this aligns with faith or not. Only when you understand what people mean on a true ethical
and clear way can a judgement be made.
A large part of the theology here comes from an undisciplined, non scholarly group who spread
their teaching through videos, books and web sites. A whole group pick up the ethics without
it being actually declared.
I find it is useful to get a description of the points being held to, to have a discussion, no matter
how it goes and then draw conclusions. Now a number in this group have already called me an
anti-Christ, evil, etc. so until they change their accusations, I assume they still believe that.
As discussion progress an aspect of theology will come out, so I will then expand that
to see where it leads. Part of this is also discovering the Lords heart on these subjects,
which has blessed me greatly. One thing I have learnt you can never stop the Lord or truth
only follow, and Praise His Holy name.
this aligns with faith or not. Only when you understand what people mean on a true ethical
and clear way can a judgement be made.
A large part of the theology here comes from an undisciplined, non scholarly group who spread
their teaching through videos, books and web sites. A whole group pick up the ethics without
it being actually declared.
I find it is useful to get a description of the points being held to, to have a discussion, no matter
how it goes and then draw conclusions. Now a number in this group have already called me an
anti-Christ, evil, etc. so until they change their accusations, I assume they still believe that.
As discussion progress an aspect of theology will come out, so I will then expand that
to see where it leads. Part of this is also discovering the Lords heart on these subjects,
which has blessed me greatly. One thing I have learnt you can never stop the Lord or truth
only follow, and Praise His Holy name.
As I discuss this with people, and look at my own life, I am not sure labels help.
We know the road we are on, we know where we are headed so we go there.
People come and argue and say we never started the path, or have left the path and they
are on the right path now and we should join them.
So I would rather just put it all together, and say this is our walk.
A common experience is people come to faith, struggle, fall away, come back, deal with issues,
go cold, warm up etc. Where we are, and was this experience real salvation or that, becomes a
bit arbitary, but I think it is important to talk about the whole, which I am attempting to do.
We know the road we are on, we know where we are headed so we go there.
People come and argue and say we never started the path, or have left the path and they
are on the right path now and we should join them.
So I would rather just put it all together, and say this is our walk.
A common experience is people come to faith, struggle, fall away, come back, deal with issues,
go cold, warm up etc. Where we are, and was this experience real salvation or that, becomes a
bit arbitary, but I think it is important to talk about the whole, which I am attempting to do.
Christ is the Savior of the world,and His blood washes away our sins,and we receive the Spirit,and are saved.
But after we are saved then the responsibility falls on us to maintain that salvation,for God will not twist our arm to do right,but we must make the decision to keeping doing right.
Some will say that once we are saved we are always saved,and it is true that if we sin it can be forgiven,but the Bible says that if a person holds unto a sin they do not want to get rid of then the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away,and they erred from the truth,and are a sinner,and has to be converted,and it will save their soul from death,and the Bible says it would have been better if they had not known the truth than to turn from the holy commandments given to them,and they will be cut off if they do not continue in the goodness of God,and these people were saved,so why is there warnings.
The best defense for a person that believes in once saved always saved is not to put forth that sin does not effect our relationship with God,for it does,but if they said we might hold unto sin during our time with Jesus,but God will see to it that it is given up before we depart from this earth,but why the warnings if we will give up all sin before we depart from this earth.
God did not give warnings that those that hold unto a sin have eternal life,but they will not have it so good on earth,but if they hold unto a sin they will be cut off.
So the best defense is to say God will see to it that we give up all sin before we depart from this earth,but why the warnings of people being saved being cut off,and that is because they did not continue in God's goodness.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Why the warnings towards the people that are saved.
But after we are saved then the responsibility falls on us to maintain that salvation,for God will not twist our arm to do right,but we must make the decision to keeping doing right.
Some will say that once we are saved we are always saved,and it is true that if we sin it can be forgiven,but the Bible says that if a person holds unto a sin they do not want to get rid of then the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away,and they erred from the truth,and are a sinner,and has to be converted,and it will save their soul from death,and the Bible says it would have been better if they had not known the truth than to turn from the holy commandments given to them,and they will be cut off if they do not continue in the goodness of God,and these people were saved,so why is there warnings.
The best defense for a person that believes in once saved always saved is not to put forth that sin does not effect our relationship with God,for it does,but if they said we might hold unto sin during our time with Jesus,but God will see to it that it is given up before we depart from this earth,but why the warnings if we will give up all sin before we depart from this earth.
God did not give warnings that those that hold unto a sin have eternal life,but they will not have it so good on earth,but if they hold unto a sin they will be cut off.
So the best defense is to say God will see to it that we give up all sin before we depart from this earth,but why the warnings of people being saved being cut off,and that is because they did not continue in God's goodness.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Why the warnings towards the people that are saved.