Did God change from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,710
494
83
#41
People are appearing on this post saying of course scripture is true, they believe it. Yet if I was to say that God gave scripture telling us he blessed the seventh day of the week and asked us to refrain from labor on that day the very earth with shake telling me it was wrong to say or think such a thing. God told us to be physically circumcised and when Christ was crucified scripture told us to be circumcised in our hearts, physical circumcision was obsolete. Scripture does not say that about the Sabbath. Yet we aren't to believe what the old testament tells us. I think Christians are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
258
94
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#42
I've never once heard anyone say "God got saved in the NT". Who are these "many" you claim think this?
Do you go to church, know people who say they are saved but don't go to church? A lot of the people who do not like God in the OT.... Not those words but you know people (Christians) that do not like the God of the OT so they reject it.... Not exact quote... silly.... let me get that gnat for you....lol....
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
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#43
The way you see the Bible demonstrates the root of the problem. It is NOT the journey of human understanding of God. Rather, it is the record of God's self-revelation to humans.

The concepts of "good" and "love" have no meaning at all if God is not the foundation of both. You're just looking at the whole thing backwards. Turn the telescope around.
Or is the way you see the bible the root of the problem? To say God is " good" must mean what we understand as the good. Otherwise the descriptor becomes meaningless. You know a good tree from its fruit. It tastes good; we know the quality of goodness. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? (James 3:11) So if we look at the absolute horror of genocide: the screams, suffering, pain, blood, bodies; children crying for lost parents, parents crying for lost children as they are hacked to death ( sorry for being graphic, but it makes the point) do we see good fruit there?? If this can be conceived of as "good", then anything can be good, and thus the word "good" is emptied of its quality of goodness.

In Star Wars there is a scene where the Sith Lord Palpatine is luring Anakin Skywalker towards the dark side of the Force. Anakin says the jedi use the force for good. Palpatine says, "Good is a point of view Anakin". He empties the word of any meaning. In the end Anakin turns evil and ends up wiping out the jedi at the temple....and losing everything he loved.

So my telescope is fine. God is the beautiful, the good, the true...the source of all good and love. And when I encounter God I am changed ever so slowly into that likeness.

The fruit of the spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, GOODNESS, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
 

ToastAndTea

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2018
231
295
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#44
Human beings are unstable. That is why they commit atrocities and then said, "But God told me to do it! " We don't accept it from the islamic fundamentalists of Isis, so why should we accept it from ancient peoples? In saying "priceless" I was amazed that the person to whom I was responding could see no difference between murder and mass executions. God cannot do whatever he likes to his creation and still claim to be Good and Love. If "good" and " love" are only whatever God decides they are, then they cease to have any meaning to us any more. The very moral relativity that christians decry in the modern culture is now what they belive of God.

However, I see the bible as the journey of human understanding of God. The great jewish scholars had a more nuanced understanding of the genocide passages, an example here:https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/genocide-in-the-torah/
This leads to the highest moral realisation of love itself. We understand him most when we experience his love, and then do our best to share it.
Your understanding of scripture is secular, hence your focus on the human view of love. God's love is not limited to how humans can understand it. Rather He is above and humans are beneath. And yes, God can do what He likes with His creation because He's God. Does this mean He will act in a way inconsistent with His character? No. God can and will do whatever He chooses to do. He is limited only by what He decides is moral or appropriate.

Your statement is extrordinarily blasphemous, actually, when it considers that God is bound to act within a certain way in accordance with a higher standard of morality that you yourself suppose to exist. There is no higher standard of morality than God himself. His actions are always pure and just. And they never inconsistent with His character. If He orders a group He ordained to kill, then it is in accordance with His will and purpose. He is the author of life and it is His divine privilege to take away what He created if He so chooses to do so.
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
100
43
#45
Your understanding of scripture is secular, hence your focus on the human view of love. God's love is not limited to how humans can understand it. Rather He is above and humans are beneath. And yes, God can do what He likes with His creation because He's God. Does this mean He will act in a way inconsistent with His character? No. God can and will do whatever He chooses to do. He is limited only by what He decides is moral or appropriate.

Your statement is extrordinarily blasphemous, actually, when it considers that God is bound to act within a certain way in accordance with a higher standard of morality that you yourself suppose to exist. There is no higher standard of morality than God himself. His actions are always pure and just. And they never inconsistent with His character. If He orders a group He ordained to kill, then it is in accordance with His will and purpose. He is the author of life and it is His divine privilege to take away what He created if He so chooses to do so.
Islamic terrorists would say the same.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,910
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#46
Or is the way you see the bible the root of the problem? To say God is " good" must mean what we understand as the good. Otherwise the descriptor becomes meaningless. You know a good tree from its fruit. It tastes good; we know the quality of goodness. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? (James 3:11) So if we look at the absolute horror of genocide: the screams, suffering, pain, blood, bodies; children crying for lost parents, parents crying for lost children as they are hacked to death ( sorry for being graphic, but it makes the point) do we see good fruit there?? If this can be conceived of as "good", then anything can be good, and thus the word "good" is emptied of its quality of goodness.
You are defining "good" first and then determining whether God fits your definition. That is backwards. If you start with God as He reveals Himself, you will (more likely) come to a right understanding of "good".

In Star Wars there is a scene where the Sith Lord Palpatine is luring Anakin Skywalker towards the dark side of the Force. Anakin says the jedi use the force for good. Palpatine says, "Good is a point of view Anakin". He empties the word of any meaning. In the end Anakin turns evil and ends up wiping out the jedi at the temple....and losing everything he loved.
While I am a fan of the Star Wars franchise, I will not waste time with examples from it to explain biblical concepts.

So my telescope is fine. God is the beautiful, the good, the true...the source of all good and love. And when I encounter God I am changed ever so slowly into that likeness.
God is slow to anger, not 'no to anger'. If you are conformed to your god, you will not be a Christian.
 

ToastAndTea

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2018
231
295
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#48
Islamic terrorists would say the same.
No because unlike the Muslim God, we actually have a relationship with our God and we do what He tells us to do because we love Him and He loves us. That does not me that God orders indiscriminate killing because He feels like it. His anger is always directed at sin. But even in that anger and righteous judgement, there are echoes of God's love and compassion towards humanity. Also, the Muslim and Christian God are completely different so your example falls flat. What you miss is that is possible for God to be both completely loving and completely just.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,910
5,380
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#49
Or is the way you see the bible the root of the problem? To say God is " good" must mean what we understand as the good. Otherwise the descriptor becomes meaningless. You know a good tree from its fruit. It tastes good; we know the quality of goodness. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? (James 3:11) So if we look at the absolute horror of genocide: the screams, suffering, pain, blood, bodies; children crying for lost parents, parents crying for lost children as they are hacked to death ( sorry for being graphic, but it makes the point) do we see good fruit there?? If this can be conceived of as "good", then anything can be good, and thus the word "good" is emptied of its quality of goodness.

In Star Wars there is a scene where the Sith Lord Palpatine is luring Anakin Skywalker towards the dark side of the Force. Anakin says the jedi use the force for good. Palpatine says, "Good is a point of view Anakin". He empties the word of any meaning. In the end Anakin turns evil and ends up wiping out the jedi at the temple....and losing everything he loved.

So my telescope is fine. God is the beautiful, the good, the true...the source of all good and love. And when I encounter God I am changed ever so slowly into that likeness.

The fruit of the spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, GOODNESS, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
By the way, it is laughable for you to quote the Bible in one place, and reject it outright in another.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,514
707
113
#50
Did God change from the Old Testament to the New Testament? I asked my son today do you know why God does not smite people like Sodom and Gomorrah today....? He said no. I explained to him God did not change but He is being patient now that Messiah has come and waiting for people to be saved/ the fulness of Messiah then He will destroy the earth with fire and all who reject Messiah will go to hell.

I know so many Christians who do not like the Old Testament because He is "fire and brimstone" never realizing God did not change He is just waiting until the fullness of Christ.... So many think God got save in the New Testament....

Did God change from the Old Testament to the New Testament?
The Old Testament is the foundation for the New. There is a saying in church circles that goes, the Old Testament is the New Prophesied, and the New is the Old realized. Because Jesus figures prominently in prophecy in the Old Testament.
Both testaments are relevant in our faith.
Islam does teach what you ask of. It's called, Naskh , and that is the idea that when a new teaching comes along it replaces the old that likely pertained to the new in any way.
That is not a teaching in Christianity however. Hope that helps.
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
100
43
#51
By the way, it is laughable for you to quote the Bible in one place, and reject it outright in another.
Why? I can think for myself and say what speaks to me and what does not. Besides we have a different view of scripture. You think God dictated it. I think people wrote it and were reaching to understand the mystery of God; sometimes they were inspired, sometimes they were not. But in my view I am not forced to defend the indefensible of mass murder.
Dino, I,m trying to understand why any christian would accept the genocide of an entire people as godly? I,ve heard it said they were evil. But the children and animals too? In the gospels Jesus says to never pay back evil for evil; do good ( that word again:)) to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. So I really struggle to equate the two.

I,m not trying to be obstinate, but it worries me that by becoming a christian someone can end up defending things they would normally never defend.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,910
5,380
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#52
Why? I can think for myself and say what speaks to me and what does not.
You can indeed, and I can laugh at your inconsistency. :)

Besides we have a different view of scripture. You think God dictated it.
Quote me.

I think people wrote it and were reaching to understand the mystery of God; sometimes they were inspired, sometimes they were not.
Read 2 Timothy 3:16. All of the biblical writers were inspired.

But in my view I am not forced to defend the indefensible of mass murder.
Nor am I, nor is any Christian.

Dino, I,m trying to understand why any christian would accept the genocide of an entire people as godly?
And I'm telling you that you have your concept of "godly" backwards.

I,m not trying to be obstinate, but it worries me that by becoming a christian someone can end up defending things they would normally never defend.
I appreciate your clarity. I am being truthful. I will do you no service by telling you popular untruths.
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
100
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#53
You can indeed, and I can laugh at your inconsistency. :)


Quote me.


Read 2 Timothy 3:16. All of the biblical writers were inspired.


Nor am I, nor is any Christian.


And I'm telling you that you have your concept of "godly" backwards.


I appreciate your clarity. I am being truthful. I will do you no service by telling you popular untruths.
Ok. I,m listening. Tell me how it is godly and how God was exercising his goodness. I want to understand your position.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,179
1,964
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#54
Ok. I,m listening. Tell me how it is godly and how God was exercising his goodness. I want to understand your position.
Christians know that all unforgiven sinners will be cast into the eternal lake of fire.. So God through history demonstrated just how serious rebellion and sin against his will was.. In the OT during the exodus Gods will was to establish the nation of Israel in the land of Canaan and the nations that went out of their way to attack His people would be made an example for all the world to see down through the ages.. That's why God has preserved His word up to this day so we can read about how God ordered the Hebrews to wipe out an entire nation.

Gods message is all sinners will die.. Not just a physical death but the second death in the eternal lake of fire.. As for the deaths of the innocent in that nation that was wiped out.. The innocent ones when they die have access to eternity with God because they never attained the knowledge of good and evil and thus they never sinned.. So their deaths where in fact a great mercy to them.. Who suffers the most when little ones die?? That's right the parents of those little ones.. The parents where fully confronted with the outcome of their evil actions against the Will of God..

Allowing the little ones to live would have caused them to be traumatized by witnessing the death of their parents, they would also never truly be loved by the ones who executed their parents but would have only ever been servants.. A life without love.. A life in servitude.. Better for the little ones to die and be with God in His perfect eternal existence then to suffer a life like that..

So Yes God was Good and is Good.. God is perfect in justice never allowing any unrepentant sinner to go unpunished and not allowing any unjustified person access to His perfect eternal existence..
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
4,136
916
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#55
People are appearing on this post saying of course scripture is true, they believe it. Yet if I was to say that God gave scripture telling us he blessed the seventh day of the week and asked us to refrain from labor on that day the very earth with shake telling me it was wrong to say or think such a thing. God told us to be physically circumcised and when Christ was crucified scripture told us to be circumcised in our hearts, physical circumcision was obsolete. Scripture does not say that about the Sabbath. Yet we aren't to believe what the old testament tells us. I think Christians are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
I think you have made a broad assertion. " I think Christians are speaking out of both sides of their mouth". Who has said we are not to believe the Old Testament? In the Full Word of God is Jesus the not the Supreme Authority whenever HE is speaking? Did Jesus remove the Law or Fulfill it? If something is completed, it is not obsolete, it is fulfilled. Jesus said many times Read in Matt chapter 5 and 6.

Matt 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

" It has been said , or it is written " BUT I says to you" . Jesus raised the standard of what man seen the Law to mean in the following areas:

Adultery
Forgiveness
the Sabbath
The Law

Jesus said all of this because of what the Scribes and Pharisees were doing to the people. Using the law to control the people not lead the people to God, Jesus makes this point in Verse 20 of chapter 5.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Keep the Sabbath and get circumcised if that is what you believe God wants you to do. Just know doing so will be meaningless to God . HE is not impressed with our ability to keep something you have already broken. The action of performing the law by you or I will not save us.
 
Jul 8, 2019
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#56
It's true that God destroyed cities and nations in His anger in OT days, but the OT also says that He was extremely patient with Israel, even though he knew they won't repent. In the same way as He was patient with Israel despite their evil ways he is now being patient with the whole world. He is doing it to prepare the kind of world in which the end times prophecies could be fulfilled.
 

ToastAndTea

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2018
231
295
63
#57
It's true that God destroyed cities and nations in His anger in OT days, but the OT also says that He was extremely patient with Israel, even though he knew they won't repent. In the same way as He was patient with Israel despite their evil ways he is now being patient with the whole world. He is doing it to prepare the kind of world in which the end times prophecies could be fulfilled.
It is also true that God gave time to those who were under judgement, so that they could repent of their sin and be reconciled (even though he could have utterly destroyed them all and started again and again if He'd wanted). But it seems there are instances where evil was so abhorrent that God had no choice but to utterly annihilate certain tribes and groupings because they were "past the point of no return" as it were. Certainly not God's perfect will, but His character demands that He acts in such a way, I think.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,910
5,380
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#58
Ok. I,m listening. Tell me how it is godly and how God was exercising his goodness. I want to understand your position.
The word "godly" means, in colloquial usage, "having or demonstrating the character of God". I can reference a formal definition if you don't like that one. You cannot logically have a concept of "godly" unless you start with God. You haven't done that.

Instead, you have defined "godly" some other way, and then measured God against that standard. In effect, you are standing in judgment of God. A man named Job tried that a long time ago. It didn't go well for him.

As for "good", Jesus Himself said, "No one is good except God alone." In other words, the definition of "good" must be framed around God. It's exactly the same principle as with "godly"; you have made up your own definition, and you're judging God to see if He measures up to it.

Basically, you have invented a concept of "god" that suits your preferences. Some of that comes from Scripture, and apparently some from other sources, but it is not soundly scriptural. You compare the God of the Bible to your concept, and supposedly He fails the test.

Here is my position, which is solidly based on Scripture: Jesus IS God. God is fully and finally manifested in Jesus.

Every act for which you blame God, you place at the feet of Jesus, and you accuse Him of sin.

Here is what I suggest you do:

Drop all preconceived ideas of what "god" means. Read the Bible... all of it, starting in Genesis. Take it at face value for what it says about God. Consider His position and what rights that position entitles Him. Note your questions along the way, but don't fret over finding the answers immediately.

Oh... and sincerely ask God to reveal Himself to you as you read. :)
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
100
43
#59
The word "godly" means, in colloquial usage, "having or demonstrating the character of God". I can reference a formal definition if you don't like that one. You cannot logically have a concept of "godly" unless you start with God. You haven't done that.

Instead, you have defined "godly" some other way, and then measured God against that standard. In effect, you are standing in judgment of God. A man named Job tried that a long time ago. It didn't go well for him.

As for "good", Jesus Himself said, "No one is good except God alone." In other words, the definition of "good" must be framed around God. It's exactly the same principle as with "godly"; you have made up your own definition, and you're judging God to see if He measures up to it.

Basically, you have invented a concept of "god" that suits your preferences. Some of that comes from Scripture, and apparently some from other sources, but it is not soundly scriptural. You compare the God of the Bible to your concept, and supposedly He fails the test.

Here is my position, which is solidly based on Scripture: Jesus IS God. God is fully and finally manifested in Jesus.

Every act for which you blame God, you place at the feet of Jesus, and you accuse Him of sin.

Here is what I suggest you do:

Drop all preconceived ideas of what "god" means. Read the Bible... all of it, starting in Genesis. Take it at face value for what it says about God. Consider His position and what rights that position entitles Him. Note your questions along the way, but don't fret over finding the answers immediately.

Oh... and sincerely ask God to reveal Himself to you as you read. :)
 

Dibby53

Active member
Sep 29, 2019
277
100
43
#60
Thanks Dino

Just to clarify a couple of things : So the word "good", in your understanding, means whatever God decides to do ; regardless of how we normally use the word?

And I wouldn't say that I simply invented a concept of God because I preferred him that way. It was based on my experience of encountering God over the years of seeking. And that experience was a deep, warm, embracing love. It certainly got me to question my preconceived ideas, even biblical ones ( I have read the bible). That is why I can't accept God ordering genocide, because I know from my own experience of God that it would be impossible. I guess you wouldn't consider me a correct christian, or even one at all. If I need to accept that God can do such things to be a christian I,m not sure it is for me. Partly why I,m on this site is to test out what I have found and discovered to see if there is a place for me in christianity. Probably not by the looks of things lol!

However, I have and will continue to ask for God's guidance.