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Romans 11:30-36
For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor? or who has first given to him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
God is the Creator of ALL THINGS. To say that there are some things that exist outside of his will is a denial of his omnipotence and as well as his omniscience, because it assumes there are things outside of his sphere of control.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
All things display the glory of God. Whether it's his mercy and goodness toward us, or his justice and judgment against sin. Romans 9 really explains these concepts quite well.
Romans 9:14-24
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor? or who has first given to him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
God is the Creator of ALL THINGS. To say that there are some things that exist outside of his will is a denial of his omnipotence and as well as his omniscience, because it assumes there are things outside of his sphere of control.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
All things display the glory of God. Whether it's his mercy and goodness toward us, or his justice and judgment against sin. Romans 9 really explains these concepts quite well.
Romans 9:14-24
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
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Saying that people have a "free choice" to choose God contradicts Romans 9:16-18
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
“chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
“chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
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It is interesting....because even millions (if time is even involved with God) years ago God KNEW all that would happen. Including that jesus would have to die even.
But, if he didn't allow sin, we would not even be born because we were born into sin and sinners technically. So...think about that and allow your head to get big!!!!
But, if he didn't allow sin, we would not even be born because we were born into sin and sinners technically. So...think about that and allow your head to get big!!!!
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John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
We make choices every single day, but that doesn't mean that God isn't the author of them. How can Moses choose his own destiny, and then be the vessel God uses to deliver the Jews from bondage in Egypt, just as he had promised?
What if Moses would have chosen not to suffer with the Jews, would that nullify God's earlier promise of deliverance?
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
We make choices every single day, but that doesn't mean that God isn't the author of them. How can Moses choose his own destiny, and then be the vessel God uses to deliver the Jews from bondage in Egypt, just as he had promised?
What if Moses would have chosen not to suffer with the Jews, would that nullify God's earlier promise of deliverance?
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I agree with all you say, but just because God knows the future does not negate the choice we make to serve Him. We may not know how it all works together, but I know we cannot choose God unless He draws us.
Somewhere along the line He gives us a choice. I think of it as a choice to not serve Him. That is why we fix our hearts so we give ourselves no choice for tomorrow. We may wake up fickle one day and not choose right.
Somewhere along the line He gives us a choice. I think of it as a choice to not serve Him. That is why we fix our hearts so we give ourselves no choice for tomorrow. We may wake up fickle one day and not choose right.
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I agree with all you say, but just because God knows the future does not negate the choice we make to serve Him. We may not know how it all works together, but I know we cannot choose God unless He draws us.
Somewhere along the line He gives us a choice. I think of it as a choice to not serve Him. That is why we fix our hearts so we give ourselves no choice for tomorrow. We may wake up fickle one day and not choose right.
Somewhere along the line He gives us a choice. I think of it as a choice to not serve Him. That is why we fix our hearts so we give ourselves no choice for tomorrow. We may wake up fickle one day and not choose right.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Notice how in the above passage there is no mention of any human being making a choice? these whom He called, He also justified.
and who did He call? Those He predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
and who did He predestine? those whom He foreknew: the elect.
Ephesians 1:3-6
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
If he chose us in Him before the creation of the world, then our destiny was predetermined by God. Our choice to follow him was actually his choice to make us his children.
There was no act of "free will" involved.
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This is getting complicated lol!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
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This is getting complicated lol!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
I think just because Yah knows what will happen this is not the reason it happens. How could Yah make judgement if He forced people to make certian decisions? How could satan be punished if Yah forced satan to rebell. Each has their own free will, but Yah knows what each being will choose. Again the fact He knows what will happen is not the reason a choice is made, He knows the choice. Those in Nineveh repented
I think this passage in Ezekiyl shows the is choice.
Isayah 44:22, "“I shall wipe out your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like a mist. Return to Me, for I shall redeem you.”
Ezekiel 18:20-32, “The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. All the transgressions which he has done shall not be remembered against him – in his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and does unrighteousness, according to all the abominations that the wrong one has done, shall he live? All his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. For his trespass which he has committed, and for his sin which he has committed, for them he shall die. And you said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Yisra’yl, is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness, and does unrighteousness, and he dies in it, it is because of his unrighteousness which he has done that he dies. And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself alive. Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. And the house of Yisra’yl have said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Yisra’yl? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I judge you, O house of Yisra’yl, every one according to his ways,” declares the Master יהוה. “Repent, and turn back from all your transgressions, and let not crookedness be a stumbling-block to you. Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’yl? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” declares the Master יהוה. “So turn back and live!”
Proverbs 1:24-33, “Because I called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one inclined, And you spurned all my counsel, And would not yield to my reproof, Let me also laugh at your calamity, Mock when your dread comes, When your dread comes like a storm, And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. Let them then call on me, but I answer not; Let them seek me, but not find me. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of יהוה, They did not accept my counsel, They despised all my reproof, Therefore let them eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled with their own counsels. For the turning away of the simple kills them, And the complacency of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me dwells safely, And is at ease from the dread of evil.”
Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He has made it all, beautiful in its time. Even the ages He has put in their hearts, except that no one finds out the work that Yah does from beginning to end.”
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This verse came to my mind when you asked this question.
Rom. 15:
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 15:
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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This is getting complicated lol!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
But if God chose Moses because he knew he would obey, then it was impossible for Moses to disobey since God is all knowing.
So where exactly did Moses make the choice himself?
As i'm writing this i am starting to understand it better.
God knew that Moses would obey and therefore it was impossible for Moses to disobey, but Moses didn't know that. For Moses it was still a choice....or was it?
Man my brain hurts!
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Satan was created perfect in his ways without sin, but he rebelled and sinned.
Ecc 7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
People were made upright to do good, but they sought out their own ways, which we are born innocent with no sin on our record until we sin, which all humans will do.
God created everything good, but the evil came from the fallen angels, and rebellious people.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The Bible says God did create evil, but this is not directly for He created all things good, but the fallen angels and people have sinned, which is a result of God creating everything, so it comes from His creation but He did not do it directly by His Spirit.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Satan was created perfect in his ways without sin, but he rebelled and sinned.
Ecc 7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
People were made upright to do good, but they sought out their own ways, which we are born innocent with no sin on our record until we sin, which all humans will do.
God created everything good, but the evil came from the fallen angels, and rebellious people.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The Bible says God did create evil, but this is not directly for He created all things good, but the fallen angels and people have sinned, which is a result of God creating everything, so it comes from His creation but He did not do it directly by His Spirit.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
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The story of the prodigal son is a great parallel to draw on when thinking on this matter. God did not give sin to people....Satan's rebellion and his angels give sin to this who willingly accept and choose to do it, God cannot tempt man of evil nor will he condone sin to man. But there's a reason Jesus spoke about the prodigal son, and why it's important. The son, got selfish, and rebelled against his father and his house, and wanted what was his, and ran off and lived very lavishly and found himself eventually eating with the hogs, which is a good parallel to us when we fall out of fellowship with the Lord, but the son eventually came to himself, and realized that things were right under his fathers house and that even his servants had it better than he was in his rebellion and lifestyle, and the son returned home. Here's the biggest parallel, the father saw his son coming back and ran out to meet him and welcomed him home with open arms and loving care and support. Nothing EVER changed the fact that he was his father's son, just as when we become children of God, nothing will EVER change the fact that we are His, and His alone, though we will be tempted, and yes we will make mistakes, but nothing can take away the fact that we are His children. So God does not give sin to people....people making the choice to walk away from fellowship with God, that opens the door to sin, God does not provide that.
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