Did God plan for man to fall to prove something to Satan and his angels?
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No! God knew men will fail and be redeemed..it's part of creating a Kingdom for His creations..see Luke 14:28-30 as an example.
If your puny god has to look into the future to see what man is going to do before he makes any resolutions, he learns wisdom and knowledge from men Isa 40:14
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
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@Genez
Thats actually a true statement of which you have no clue, because Adam was Created to spend eternity with God forever in and through the Redemptive Work of Christ, so Adam will join the heavenly choir of Rev 7:9-12
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
See you think God devised this Honor for Himself after He learned what adam was going to do. As He didnt have Wisdom in Himself for this b4 Adam was ever created.
Thats actually a true statement of which you have no clue, because Adam was Created to spend eternity with God forever in and through the Redemptive Work of Christ, so Adam will join the heavenly choir of Rev 7:9-12
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
See you think God devised this Honor for Himself after He learned what adam was going to do. As He didnt have Wisdom in Himself for this b4 Adam was ever created.
God made provision for mankind ... knowing Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God does not have to "prove" anything to satan and his angels.
satan knows Who God is ... and satan knows he cannot conquer God ... what satan can do (and does do very effectively) is seek to devour that which God has created.
God's "plan" overcomes satan ... greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4) ... and it is sad to see mankind reject God because some believe the lies of satan.
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God does not have to "prove" anything to satan and his angels.
satan knows Who God is ... and satan knows he cannot conquer God ... what satan can do (and does do very effectively) is seek to devour that which God has created.
God's "plan" overcomes satan ... greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4) ... and it is sad to see mankind reject God because some believe the lies of satan.
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God has no past or future. He is and He exists outside of time because He is eternal.
Creation has a beginning so it is not eternal: the earth, the heavens, and everything in them are not eternal. They had a start point in time "In the beginning...".
God did not create Adam to sin. God created Him knowing he would sin. But Adam's redemption was already established from the foundation of the world with the Lamb Who was slain.
When you consider someone's character, intent matters. Even our limited law understands that.
To say Adam was designed to sin disparages God's character and is not accurate. I mean, not that God is concerned about being disparaged but, rather, for those who disparage Him, if they love the truth they will want to abandon such mindsets.
Creation has a beginning so it is not eternal: the earth, the heavens, and everything in them are not eternal. They had a start point in time "In the beginning...".
God did not create Adam to sin. God created Him knowing he would sin. But Adam's redemption was already established from the foundation of the world with the Lamb Who was slain.
When you consider someone's character, intent matters. Even our limited law understands that.
To say Adam was designed to sin disparages God's character and is not accurate. I mean, not that God is concerned about being disparaged but, rather, for those who disparage Him, if they love the truth they will want to abandon such mindsets.
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But, God did.
I guess we can rip the book of Job out of your Bible, then? .... Job 1:6-10.
God was definitely out to prove Satan wrong concerning His claim about the integrity of Job.
grace and peace ......
.......
I guess we can rip the book of Job out of your Bible, then? .... Job 1:6-10.
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;
he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household
and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
God was definitely out to prove Satan wrong concerning His claim about the integrity of Job.
grace and peace ......
.......
No. Both in principle and the narrative the answer is both no. In principle God does not test or tempt, God doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, much less Satan whom is the very lowest creation in all of the creation. In narrative also, God expressly told man and woman nto to eat from the tree, and he also told them the consequences upfront. If you're going to test someone or do an experiment on them you don't tell them the consequences.
Gpd's intention with man is to have his family. God foreknew they would fall as God is omniscient, but he did not design them to fall if that makes sense. If anything in his foreknowledge of their fall God made a way to reconcile them (Jesus). This further shows God's real intention. The analogy I like to use is a Father knows his kids will fall at some point and have hardships, but he still has kids anyways in the hopes of having his family in the end. I believe the same is with God. He doesn't want us to hurt, he doesn't want us to sin, but he knows we will and he longsuffers it and he made a path of redemption through Jesus so that in the end he might have his family, which is his original intent.
Gpd's intention with man is to have his family. God foreknew they would fall as God is omniscient, but he did not design them to fall if that makes sense. If anything in his foreknowledge of their fall God made a way to reconcile them (Jesus). This further shows God's real intention. The analogy I like to use is a Father knows his kids will fall at some point and have hardships, but he still has kids anyways in the hopes of having his family in the end. I believe the same is with God. He doesn't want us to hurt, he doesn't want us to sin, but he knows we will and he longsuffers it and he made a path of redemption through Jesus so that in the end he might have his family, which is his original intent.
Hmm what did God say or ask Adam? "Where are you?" "who told you" "did you eat of the tree I told you not to?" He told them not to eat of that tree. That was Gods plan. Be like speculating was it Gods plan for 1/3 of the angels to fall. Sin was found.. in him.
To say "God created man knowing full well that man would fall" is not written its just speculation
You know walking to my little truck one night in Hollywood coming from a meeting (Christian). Just as I was crossing the street He said "RUN" I thought "run? Why I'm not scared". To that He came right back with "When GOD tells you to do something you do not question it you do it". To that I said yes sir. See as I started to run and very happy.. I am on the next street I pass this apartment building double doors wide open pitch black in side.. to people run out jump in this car and are driving back wards after me..
My point is ... when God tells us to do something there is no questioning it. That questing only happens here after the fall. God from what I read never sent Satan into the Garden to lie to deceive them.
Thinking now.. when God talked to Abraham to tell him what He was about to do. He said "I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Why would GOD have to come down to see if He knows all? Yet He does..
To say "God created man knowing full well that man would fall" is not written its just speculation
You know walking to my little truck one night in Hollywood coming from a meeting (Christian). Just as I was crossing the street He said "RUN" I thought "run? Why I'm not scared". To that He came right back with "When GOD tells you to do something you do not question it you do it". To that I said yes sir. See as I started to run and very happy.. I am on the next street I pass this apartment building double doors wide open pitch black in side.. to people run out jump in this car and are driving back wards after me.. My point is ... when God tells us to do something there is no questioning it. That questing only happens here after the fall. God from what I read never sent Satan into the Garden to lie to deceive them.
Thinking now.. when God talked to Abraham to tell him what He was about to do. He said "I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Why would GOD have to come down to see if He knows all? Yet He does..
Some here either do not know what omniscience means.
Or, that God is not omniscient.
The problem is....
How could God create a real life?
(an angel or man)
That is truly a life?
If that that created life were not free to make its own choices independent of God's choice?
.......... This is where the theological tension headache begins.
Omniscience could not create such a real life because omniscience would be causing the choices of what is being created to be created.
Solution?
Omniscience must therefore stop being omniscient while in the process of creating that rational life is taking place.
As to allow for the freedom of the one being created to not have his volition tampered with.
Solution to creating both rational men and angels?
Jesus Christ demonstrated it.
He was capable of departmentalizing His human nature away from His powers of Deity.
And, have all men and angels created by Him while in that altered state, yet still in perfect righteousness!
Philippians 2:6-8
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
He being both fully human and fully God.
Made Himself become as man by denying himself of His powers of Deity!
(denied of Omniscience)
In Christ ...............
Or, that God is not omniscient.
The problem is....
How could God create a real life?
(an angel or man)
That is truly a life?
If that that created life were not free to make its own choices independent of God's choice?
.......... This is where the theological tension headache begins.
Omniscience could not create such a real life because omniscience would be causing the choices of what is being created to be created.
Solution?
Omniscience must therefore stop being omniscient while in the process of creating that rational life is taking place.
As to allow for the freedom of the one being created to not have his volition tampered with.
Solution to creating both rational men and angels?
Jesus Christ demonstrated it.
He was capable of departmentalizing His human nature away from His powers of Deity.
And, have all men and angels created by Him while in that altered state, yet still in perfect righteousness!
Philippians 2:6-8
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
He being both fully human and fully God.
Made Himself become as man by denying himself of His powers of Deity!
(denied of Omniscience)
In Christ ...............
God tells us,he consigned man to disobedience.
So that he could show mercy.
He hardens whom he will. He shows mercy as he wills.
He made a wager with Satan and let Job to suffer the loss of everything but his own life. And this all transpired because God bet Satan Job would hold to his faith.
Is it impossible to believe the first such wager was between God and Satan as to Adam and Eve staying faithful to God's law? Not to eat of the forbidden tree?
If they didn't eat of that,there was no reason for Jesus,the Lamb,to be slain before God created the world.
There was no reason for God to write the names of his Elect in that Lambs book of life before the creation of the world. Unless the fall was planned by God. Who didn't have to put the forbidden tree in the center of his garden.
So that he could show mercy.
He hardens whom he will. He shows mercy as he wills.
He made a wager with Satan and let Job to suffer the loss of everything but his own life. And this all transpired because God bet Satan Job would hold to his faith.
Is it impossible to believe the first such wager was between God and Satan as to Adam and Eve staying faithful to God's law? Not to eat of the forbidden tree?
If they didn't eat of that,there was no reason for Jesus,the Lamb,to be slain before God created the world.
There was no reason for God to write the names of his Elect in that Lambs book of life before the creation of the world. Unless the fall was planned by God. Who didn't have to put the forbidden tree in the center of his garden.