If the Father is God and Jesus is God, Does that mean that God sacrificed himself to himself in order to appease himself. I find this to be confusing, I mean why didn't an all knowing God create a different plan where his son didn't need to be brutally murdered. Why did God need a plan to redeem us in the first place? If he is all powerful then he should not need to devise a plan at all, He should simply wish for it to be and it would be, no plan or bloodshed required. I don't mean to sound like a doubting Thomas,these are just things i think about. What are your thoughts on the subject?
Did God sacrifice himself to himself?
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God isn't ANY form of:
Tritheism
Triadism
Trinitarianism
Bitheism
Diadism
Binitarianism
Unitarianism
Sabellianism
Arianism
Adoptionism
Gnosticism
The Transcendent God spoke forth the substance of Himself as an Immanent Man. That Logos pierced and divided asunder His Spirit out from Himself to indwell mankind for redemption. Jesus is the prosopon (personal presence and appearance in the sight of another) of God. The "real"ization of the Transcendent God... God made "real". The embodiment of God's substance, procreated as the Son from realm to realm. The eternally-pre-existent internal Logos became the external Son within creation that came into existence with the act of the utterance. The Son inherits all that is the Father's, including His Soul and Spirit. In eternity, Jesus is the finite point of presence for God's omnipresence.
Transcendence condescended to Immanence, then ascended to Transcendence; born from above that we might also be. Firstborn of all creation; firstborn among many brethren; firstborn from the dead. In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead... bodily. The express image of His substance. God manifested in the flesh. Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
The eternal, intangible, invisible Transcendent God created the temporal in which to be tangible and visible as an Immanent Man. "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life (psuche - soul life) for his friends." God gave His "Self" to us. Laid it down.
Tritheism
Triadism
Trinitarianism
Bitheism
Diadism
Binitarianism
Unitarianism
Sabellianism
Arianism
Adoptionism
Gnosticism
The Transcendent God spoke forth the substance of Himself as an Immanent Man. That Logos pierced and divided asunder His Spirit out from Himself to indwell mankind for redemption. Jesus is the prosopon (personal presence and appearance in the sight of another) of God. The "real"ization of the Transcendent God... God made "real". The embodiment of God's substance, procreated as the Son from realm to realm. The eternally-pre-existent internal Logos became the external Son within creation that came into existence with the act of the utterance. The Son inherits all that is the Father's, including His Soul and Spirit. In eternity, Jesus is the finite point of presence for God's omnipresence.
Transcendence condescended to Immanence, then ascended to Transcendence; born from above that we might also be. Firstborn of all creation; firstborn among many brethren; firstborn from the dead. In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead... bodily. The express image of His substance. God manifested in the flesh. Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
The eternal, intangible, invisible Transcendent God created the temporal in which to be tangible and visible as an Immanent Man. "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life (psuche - soul life) for his friends." God gave His "Self" to us. Laid it down.
That is the mystery of God my brother. You should not question the Lord our God. The fact is that God did require that the Son of God give His life for ours. It is wrong to question God or say that His plan was not perfect. It is the Love of God that required justice. It was required that Jesus die for the sins of the whole World because God required a sacrifice. Jesus payed the price of sin which is death.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,fully God and fully man in harmony.
God's Spirit cannot fit in a body,for the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God.
When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh it means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
We are the same as Jesus if we have the Spirit,but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes,the fulness of the Godhead bodily,and it pleased the Father that in the man Christ Jesus all fulness shall dwell,and He has the Spirit without measure,where the saints have partial attributes.
Therefore the man Christ Jesus is God's personal human body,and the visible relationship that the invisible God will have with His children forever,as God glorified that human body,and sits on the throne in heaven,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus being on the right hand of God means that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power for a certain period of time,not Jesus sits on a throne next to the Father,for there is only one throne in heaven and Jesus sits on that throne,who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The Bible says that God gave us His human life.
The Bible says that God purchased the Church with His own blood.
The Bible says to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.
The Bible says that the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father and in another passage of scripture it says Jesus shall present the Church to Himself.Jesus is fully God and fully man,and only a sinless man can reconcile sinful mankind back to a holy God.No man is sinless so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and God became that sinless man to save mankind.Jesus as a sinless man reconciled the world to Himself as God,because Jesus is fully God and fully man.
God said without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins,and a sinless man had to reconcile us to God whose blood is superior to animals,who cannot commit suicide to do it,but people who do not accept the truth will take that life.
All sin resides in the flesh and our blood is tainted,so the blood of Jesus saves us,and Jesus came in the flesh to condemn the flesh that is sinful.
God's Spirit cannot fit in a body,for the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God.
When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh it means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
We are the same as Jesus if we have the Spirit,but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes,the fulness of the Godhead bodily,and it pleased the Father that in the man Christ Jesus all fulness shall dwell,and He has the Spirit without measure,where the saints have partial attributes.
Therefore the man Christ Jesus is God's personal human body,and the visible relationship that the invisible God will have with His children forever,as God glorified that human body,and sits on the throne in heaven,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus being on the right hand of God means that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power for a certain period of time,not Jesus sits on a throne next to the Father,for there is only one throne in heaven and Jesus sits on that throne,who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The Bible says that God gave us His human life.
The Bible says that God purchased the Church with His own blood.
The Bible says to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.
The Bible says that the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father and in another passage of scripture it says Jesus shall present the Church to Himself.Jesus is fully God and fully man,and only a sinless man can reconcile sinful mankind back to a holy God.No man is sinless so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and God became that sinless man to save mankind.Jesus as a sinless man reconciled the world to Himself as God,because Jesus is fully God and fully man.
God said without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins,and a sinless man had to reconcile us to God whose blood is superior to animals,who cannot commit suicide to do it,but people who do not accept the truth will take that life.
All sin resides in the flesh and our blood is tainted,so the blood of Jesus saves us,and Jesus came in the flesh to condemn the flesh that is sinful.
S
Okay, while you are correct here, I think maybe you should note that the person asking this question is fifteen years old, and that most of those terms might possibly be a bit too complex.
How about this: Since the OT days when God required animal sacrifices in order to atone for man's sins, they were always merely a covering and never a complete forgiveness. And when you sinned again, you needed to sacrifice another animal to atone for that next sin. But, with the number of sins mankind committed nearly infinite in number, the only possible sacrifice that could completely and for all time forgive all sins would be one that was greater, that was indeed infinite in cost and value. And, the only thing that qualifies as infinite in every way would be God Himself.
So, God accepted the sacrifice of His only begotten Son as the sacrifice, the infinite sacrifice that would forgive all sins if you believed that it would.
As far as a plan, well, God made us in His own image, and since God has free will, so too do we. But, in order to have free will, we must also have a choice. Do we choose to serve and love God, or something else? So, He gave us the choice to make concerning salvation, so that He could know that we are choosing Him because we want to ... not because we were forced to.
Hope that helps.
How about this: Since the OT days when God required animal sacrifices in order to atone for man's sins, they were always merely a covering and never a complete forgiveness. And when you sinned again, you needed to sacrifice another animal to atone for that next sin. But, with the number of sins mankind committed nearly infinite in number, the only possible sacrifice that could completely and for all time forgive all sins would be one that was greater, that was indeed infinite in cost and value. And, the only thing that qualifies as infinite in every way would be God Himself.
So, God accepted the sacrifice of His only begotten Son as the sacrifice, the infinite sacrifice that would forgive all sins if you believed that it would.
As far as a plan, well, God made us in His own image, and since God has free will, so too do we. But, in order to have free will, we must also have a choice. Do we choose to serve and love God, or something else? So, He gave us the choice to make concerning salvation, so that He could know that we are choosing Him because we want to ... not because we were forced to.
Hope that helps.
M
If the Father is God and Jesus is God, Does that mean that God sacrificed himself to himself in order to appease himself. No. I find this to be confusing, I mean why didn't an all knowing God create a different plan where his son didn't need to be brutally murdered.God the FATHER came to earth AS the Son, Jesus Christ. God, HIMSELF is the one that died on the Cross. And because He IS GOD, and is everywhere at once, He has the ability and power to be BOTH God the Father and God the Son. When Jesus was cruxified, it was HE that sacrificed HIMSELF, not TO, but FOR US. Why did God need a plan to redeem us in the first place?His PLAN was that WE would have a CHOICE ...to be able to chose to love and obey Him or to chose not too. His PLAN was that EVIL would be available as one of our choices. Knowing that EVIL (the kingdom of darkness and death) was set to kill, steal and destroy that which God created, He had to have a set plan of redemption that would allow US to chose Him and His ways so that we could be with Him forever. If he is all powerful then he should not need to devise a plan at all, He should simply wish for it to be and it would be, no plan or bloodshed required. Sounds simple, doesn't it? But then not one person would truly LOVE God. We would just be, basically, robots that did what we were told, with no say in the matter, no free will, no true love for the Creator.I don't mean to sound like a doubting Thomas,these are just things i think about. What are your thoughts on the subjects? Not my thoughts, but His, by His Spirit and His character. Hope that helps!
Maggie
Maggie
"God said without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins,and a sinless man had to reconcile us to God whose blood is superior to animals,who cannot commit suicide to do it,but people who do not accept the truth will take that life." You say that God says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin? why? Doesnt God make the rules?
S
God does indeed make the rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we fully understand why He did, or how exactly the rules work, especially since we are so limited in our thinking compared to the Almighty that we couldn't completely realize the reasons for them anyway.
I've been pondering that myself lately, how God has said several times that life is in the blood, even as far back as the murder of Abel, where God says that Abel's blood is crying out. How exactly does that work? I can't tell you, as far as I can see, blood is simply a liquid used to carry oxygen to cells, and carbon dioxide out, as well as as being a biological transport system, but clearly God knows a great deal more than I do. Could our souls be located in out blood somehow? I don't know.
I mean, God's thoughts are so big that any one of the least of His thoughts would probably cause our brains to explode. Here's another one: Does God have a sense of humor? I suspect that He does if we do, as we are made in His image, but what would God find funny? Could we even comprehend it?
My point is, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that we don't know all the answers, and simply accept what God has said concerning life and salvation.
I've been pondering that myself lately, how God has said several times that life is in the blood, even as far back as the murder of Abel, where God says that Abel's blood is crying out. How exactly does that work? I can't tell you, as far as I can see, blood is simply a liquid used to carry oxygen to cells, and carbon dioxide out, as well as as being a biological transport system, but clearly God knows a great deal more than I do. Could our souls be located in out blood somehow? I don't know.
I mean, God's thoughts are so big that any one of the least of His thoughts would probably cause our brains to explode. Here's another one: Does God have a sense of humor? I suspect that He does if we do, as we are made in His image, but what would God find funny? Could we even comprehend it?
My point is, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that we don't know all the answers, and simply accept what God has said concerning life and salvation.
Bolded above...
Leviticus 17:11 "For the life (nephesh - soul) of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."
Hebrews 4:12 "...piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow..."
Marrow (muelo) produces blood, wherein is soul-life. Joints is the articulated parts of the body. Joints-marrow is body-soul. The dividing asunder of soul-spirit, body-soul.
Spirit (pneuma) is breath. God breathed life. The blood oxygenates the body.
Leviticus 17:11 "For the life (nephesh - soul) of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."
Hebrews 4:12 "...piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow..."
Marrow (muelo) produces blood, wherein is soul-life. Joints is the articulated parts of the body. Joints-marrow is body-soul. The dividing asunder of soul-spirit, body-soul.
Spirit (pneuma) is breath. God breathed life. The blood oxygenates the body.
Hi truthseeker,
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth...
If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)
1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
-----------------------------
1 John 3:16 (KJV)
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Romans 5:8 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth...
If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
-----------------------------
1 John 3:16 (KJV)
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Romans 5:8 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
I agree with truthseeker. These responses are still inadequate. He wants to understand the mechanics of atonement as do I. Simply saying, "It's a car," does not answer how the car operates. And unfortunately the mechanics of atonement not only deal with the flesh but with the spirit as well since the spirit that has not been atoned for will die. And since the spirit is difficult to understand one will have a difficult time explaining the mechanics of atonement to the most intricate extent.
I feel that truthseeker's real concern is much more specific than, "Why did God choose atonement?" I feel a better wording of his concern might be, "What is the most practical and logical reason for God choosing atonement over other methods of fixing his creation (assuming he is omnipotent and could do so at any time)?"
An example of an answer that would at least address his question but still would leave something to be desired is: death is chosen by God to warn those in his eternal kingdom not to make the same mistake Satan did by going against God's will (which is that all his creation should have life to the fullest). Before, Satan had no experience with death to act as an aversion to sin against God, but now we know death through first-hand experience and will not make the same mistake Satan did once that tempter - Satan - is gone from the world.
I feel that truthseeker's real concern is much more specific than, "Why did God choose atonement?" I feel a better wording of his concern might be, "What is the most practical and logical reason for God choosing atonement over other methods of fixing his creation (assuming he is omnipotent and could do so at any time)?"
An example of an answer that would at least address his question but still would leave something to be desired is: death is chosen by God to warn those in his eternal kingdom not to make the same mistake Satan did by going against God's will (which is that all his creation should have life to the fullest). Before, Satan had no experience with death to act as an aversion to sin against God, but now we know death through first-hand experience and will not make the same mistake Satan did once that tempter - Satan - is gone from the world.
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God has many members.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Jesus christ is God right hand
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Jesus is my friend he is God right hand.
Just cause im Gods eyes doesnt mean im God
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Jesus christ is God right hand
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Jesus is my friend he is God right hand.
Just cause im Gods eyes doesnt mean im God
The facts are against you young man. Don't you think God would have done it another way if there was another way? There was no other way. God did what He wanted to do even though it required alot of Love. God is love and part of Love is self sacrifice. You cannot change what already happened by thinking things. You should be thankful that Jesus died for you, not question if there is another way.
P
He is that bread that came from heaven, the bread is the word of life and is from the Father, the Father dwelt (lived) in the Son, for all the fullness of the Godhead lived in him.
He is the comforter (Holy Ghost) the Spirit of Christ is he, He that has the Son has the Father also... He is the lamb of God and all scripture as was prophesied by the Holy Prophets spoke of him, from Moses to Malachi, the psalms bear witness of who he is, He is the Messiah (God come in the flesh).
As Abraham explained to his son when he asked... "Father where is the sacrifice", Abraham replied that God would provide his own sacrifice, and so we have this type and shadow to confirm the plan of God through the ages. The book of Rev. declares him to the lamb slain from the foundation (beginning) of the world... John said of him... That our hands have handled the WORD OF LIFE and do bear witness of that light that entered the world.
The bread from heaven is the Spirit of the Father, who is the Holy Spirit and not the third person of the trinity. He enrobed himself in the flesh and the flesh is the Son who is the image of the invisible God... Hear O' Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, he was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not... All the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in him and as the Angel explained to Mary... " that Holy thing (One) which is in thee is of the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therfore Jesus is the outward visible image of the indwelling invisible Father... Know ye not that the Father dwell (LIVE) in me and I in him, I and my Father are One!
He is the comforter (Holy Ghost) the Spirit of Christ is he, He that has the Son has the Father also... He is the lamb of God and all scripture as was prophesied by the Holy Prophets spoke of him, from Moses to Malachi, the psalms bear witness of who he is, He is the Messiah (God come in the flesh).
As Abraham explained to his son when he asked... "Father where is the sacrifice", Abraham replied that God would provide his own sacrifice, and so we have this type and shadow to confirm the plan of God through the ages. The book of Rev. declares him to the lamb slain from the foundation (beginning) of the world... John said of him... That our hands have handled the WORD OF LIFE and do bear witness of that light that entered the world.
The bread from heaven is the Spirit of the Father, who is the Holy Spirit and not the third person of the trinity. He enrobed himself in the flesh and the flesh is the Son who is the image of the invisible God... Hear O' Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, he was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not... All the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in him and as the Angel explained to Mary... " that Holy thing (One) which is in thee is of the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therfore Jesus is the outward visible image of the indwelling invisible Father... Know ye not that the Father dwell (LIVE) in me and I in him, I and my Father are One!