Did God sacrifice himself to himself?
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Who created sin is a much easier question to answer. Just to expand on Laodicea's post here:
God gave his creations free will. Satan had free will, and he was an angel. If he did not have free will then he would have obeyed God implicitly. So it appears God even gave his angels free will. If one has free will then they can have a will apart from God's. This is where sin came from, since sin by definition originates from a will apart from God's. Every time you choose a will apart from God's you, yourself, create sin.
But the reason why I thought my previous point was inadequate to address atonement was because I believe we will receive a will that is aligned with God's once we receive our new bodies. So, just like God, we will have no desire to sin since it would only be offending ourselves. Did Jesus sin? No. And if it were possible for Jesus to sin then it would be possible for us to sin in our new bodies. This is how much alike Jesus we will be in God's eternal kingdom.
So my previous point about God using death to warn others not to sin might be an added aversion to sin, but would seem unnecessary since I believe we will be as much aligned with God's will as Jesus is. And, while I believe Jesus is theoretically capable of sin, I don't believe he is in all practicality capable of it.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
God gave his creations free will. Satan had free will, and he was an angel. If he did not have free will then he would have obeyed God implicitly. So it appears God even gave his angels free will. If one has free will then they can have a will apart from God's. This is where sin came from, since sin by definition originates from a will apart from God's. Every time you choose a will apart from God's you, yourself, create sin.
But the reason why I thought my previous point was inadequate to address atonement was because I believe we will receive a will that is aligned with God's once we receive our new bodies. So, just like God, we will have no desire to sin since it would only be offending ourselves. Did Jesus sin? No. And if it were possible for Jesus to sin then it would be possible for us to sin in our new bodies. This is how much alike Jesus we will be in God's eternal kingdom.
So my previous point about God using death to warn others not to sin might be an added aversion to sin, but would seem unnecessary since I believe we will be as much aligned with God's will as Jesus is. And, while I believe Jesus is theoretically capable of sin, I don't believe he is in all practicality capable of it.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
God is an all-powerful God but he is also a moral God. I believe I have an answer for you in the form of five points:
1. If God just changed Satan into a benevolent being, then he would have had to do away with Satan's free will. Satan's will is against God's.
2. God requires the death of the sinner. Why? Because sin ultimately leads to death. Satan's sin can be seen all over the world today: wars, lies, thieving, murdering. Although it sounds hypocritical at first, killing a murderer to do away with death is a logical option. Otherwise the murderer, with his free will, will just murder again. Sin leads to death, so the sinner must die to cause death to cease.
3. If God required a death penalty of sinners with no atonement, then he would have no creation because all of his creation would die.
4. If he did not kill himself to make atonement for our lives then he would be holding himself to a different standard than he held us to and this would be hypocritical. God does not like hypocrisy.
5. Atonement means "buying back". If Christ had sinned then Christ would have died for his own sins, and we would have died for our own sins as well. Christ's sacrifice then would have no atoning value. This is why Christ had to be sinless. Otherwise he would have died a sinner's death in vain.
1. If God just changed Satan into a benevolent being, then he would have had to do away with Satan's free will. Satan's will is against God's.
2. God requires the death of the sinner. Why? Because sin ultimately leads to death. Satan's sin can be seen all over the world today: wars, lies, thieving, murdering. Although it sounds hypocritical at first, killing a murderer to do away with death is a logical option. Otherwise the murderer, with his free will, will just murder again. Sin leads to death, so the sinner must die to cause death to cease.
3. If God required a death penalty of sinners with no atonement, then he would have no creation because all of his creation would die.
4. If he did not kill himself to make atonement for our lives then he would be holding himself to a different standard than he held us to and this would be hypocritical. God does not like hypocrisy.
5. Atonement means "buying back". If Christ had sinned then Christ would have died for his own sins, and we would have died for our own sins as well. Christ's sacrifice then would have no atoning value. This is why Christ had to be sinless. Otherwise he would have died a sinner's death in vain.
S
Well, the thing is, you can question with the correct attitude, and an incorrect one. Jeremiah would often ask questions of God by starting out with the premise that God was awesome and wonderful, but then would ask how such things as he was seeing could be. He fully acknowledged the power and control of God while he did so though.
Then you have questioning for the sake of questioning, in which the intent isn't the discernment of God's will, but rather why He's doing what He's doing when you have a better plan than He does.
Then you have questioning for the sake of questioning, in which the intent isn't the discernment of God's will, but rather why He's doing what He's doing when you have a better plan than He does.
Y
I love your question. It is as simple as it is complicated. Your question shows that you are indeed thinking about it. The term 'doubting Thomas' means only that you do not understand. Remember, 'Thomas' was one of the disciples who followed Jesus. Are you one who follows Jesus and still struggles to understand? You are in the good company of the first Apostles!
Your own life has to play a part in this picture for you to understand what took place and why. If you only look outwardly, and do not see evidence of spiritual matters of things happening within you; you will not see why Jesus was brutally murdered because of your sins. How could you be one of the angels in Heaven if you trusted yourself more than you trusted God?
This is not a statement of condemnation. It is the beginning of understanding. The beginning of understanding that God so loved the world (lost in sin), He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Keep asking questions, but use your own life to understand as you search for answers.
Your own life has to play a part in this picture for you to understand what took place and why. If you only look outwardly, and do not see evidence of spiritual matters of things happening within you; you will not see why Jesus was brutally murdered because of your sins. How could you be one of the angels in Heaven if you trusted yourself more than you trusted God?
This is not a statement of condemnation. It is the beginning of understanding. The beginning of understanding that God so loved the world (lost in sin), He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Keep asking questions, but use your own life to understand as you search for answers.
B
Hi truthseeker,
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth...
If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth...
If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)
L
The wages of sin is death that has not changed and because we have all sinned then we should all die but, Jesus took our punishment upon Himself and died in our place, and because He is God eternal then He was able by His death to put away our sins eternally. All we have to do is to choose and surrender to Him.
L
Hi truthseeker,
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth... If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)
1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
-----------------------------
1 John 3:16 (KJV)
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Romans 5:8 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
First off, God is Holy in a way that we can't even perceive and we are rotten sinners but He meant it this way from the beginning and had a plan from the foundation of the world that He will manifest His love through the sacrifice of himself in the flesh (the Son of God, Jesus Christ)
This he predestined everything and did it on purpose so that we may know Him as He is today, full of grace and truth...
If He did not predestined everything this way we would have not known His great love towards us...(think about it)1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
-----------------------------
1 John 3:16 (KJV)
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Romans 5:8 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Y
actually, the statement is correct; not because someone might think God could not have done it any other way;
But that this is what He has done; none can question it. It is because of this the statement is correct. Ask Job what God said when He Corrected Job on the level of a friend. Very few have obtained this kind of fellowship with God.
But that this is what He has done; none can question it. It is because of this the statement is correct. Ask Job what God said when He Corrected Job on the level of a friend. Very few have obtained this kind of fellowship with God.
I agree with Laodicea on this one. My post above was not for the sake of explaining how we would become incapable of sinning but rather for the sake of explaining the logical reasons behind Christ dying for us. Christ died to atone for our lives. If he didn't then we would die and not even have the chance to become incapable of sinning. Correct me if I'm wrong, truthseeker, but I don't think Christ's sacrifice was supposed to make us incapable of sinning. If that were the case then no Christian would ever sin.
Christ's sacrifice was to keep us from death. This is the purpose of atonement. Later on, since we have chosen God's will, God will change our own wills so that they will be aligned with his. And we will never again want to sin. But right now our will, though wanting to be changed, is not yet changed and we are still capable of sin.
If you still want me to explain atonement then I can, but I thought I had explained it? If you're still a bit hazy on it though, just say the word, because I believe I understand not only why God chose atonement but how atonement works. But I don't think the purpose of atonement is to make us incapable of sinning. God will do that later.
Christ's sacrifice was to keep us from death. This is the purpose of atonement. Later on, since we have chosen God's will, God will change our own wills so that they will be aligned with his. And we will never again want to sin. But right now our will, though wanting to be changed, is not yet changed and we are still capable of sin.
If you still want me to explain atonement then I can, but I thought I had explained it? If you're still a bit hazy on it though, just say the word, because I believe I understand not only why God chose atonement but how atonement works. But I don't think the purpose of atonement is to make us incapable of sinning. God will do that later.
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Essentially God could have bought us back through whatever means he wanted to buy us back from death. But atonement through the sacrifice of a sinless life was the only suitable means to do it. He could have just said, "Even though I require every sinner to pay the death penalty for their sins, I don't want to pay that price to buy you back from death because death is too high a price for me." But then God, while requiring us to pay the price of death, would be requiring himself to pay a lesser price. He would be a God of double standards, and since he has already said in the Bible that he dislikes such things he might not only be a hypocritical God but a lying God. And so in buying us back with a price that was less than death he would sully his character.
Why atonement was needed to be made in the form of a sacrifice was a moral issue. Again, he could have used other means to keep us from dying, but since sin required death a sacrifice was the only moral way to do it.
Why atonement was needed to be made in the form of a sacrifice was a moral issue. Again, he could have used other means to keep us from dying, but since sin required death a sacrifice was the only moral way to do it.