Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

No. He spoke plainly enough in the Sermon on the Mount when He began His ministry. But those who hated God would not receive it, but came at Him to dispute about the legal requirements of the Law vs. Jesus doctrine. So Jesus began to use parables. He said that he did so so that the nay-sayers would not understand.

That kind of Jew had been unwilling to hear God's words spoken to them plainly for centuries, but had chosen to stop their ears and close their eyes. to God's words and signs. Speaking in parables to them gave them nothing to argue theologically against. Are they going to argue about how shepherding works and how seeds are planted and grow? Since it was God's will that Jesus cast out no one who came to Him, and these antagonists were coming to disrupt Jesus' ministry with theological arguments, drawn by the Father, the strategy was to make the adversarial walk away of their own free will, leaving the genuine seekers to ponder on the meaning of the parables and to observe the perfection of the Lamb.

This is your interjection into the passage. Jesus isn't talking about Jews in the past. The prophecy was fulfilled in His time on earth. He clearly says He is doing so because they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom, while others have been given the ability to know.
As He explains the parable, He goes on to state that those who hear and understand are the ones who bear fruit. These are the ones who it has been given to know.
Jesus did fine making the adversaries walk away of their own all the time without the use of parables. A whole group dropped stones and walked away. He silenced the lawyer who questioned Him. He silenced the Pharisees all the time. He didn't need parables to do so. He simply used wisdom, and spoke as one having authority.

 

[Magenta]

I do not feel guilty about how I see someone saying God made them be a Believer and they had no say in the matter like God just did it whether they wanted it or not.

But I do see that You Magenta are offended.

And we are wrong to offend others.

For Offending You Magenta I am sorry.

But the way I see how some claim that God can just make you be something without consent or you being for it seems criminal in my opinion.

And I do not serve a God who is Guilty of such Coercion!

Yes this whole idea of God being reprehensible and acting criminally for carrying out His will and doing all that He pleases and His Word not returning void etc et cetera has been well covered from many angles. I appreciate your apology, although you must have known that bringing rape into the conversation in light of and/or comparing it to God's unilateral moves would be offensive to some. Not unlike having God move first called being kidnapped against one's will, making Him a tyrant, and the offer of repentance fraudulent. In my mind one does not equal the other. But I suppose to some that is the freedom they have: to call God evil for doing what He promised He would do. And now I must return to work ... see you later!

 

[studier]

The Greek word "akuo" can mean "hear" or "listen". So, Jesus could be saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him listen." This makes the most sense to me. "You have ears. Use them to pay attention to what I am saying. Don't just passively hear, in one er and out the other."

Firstly, and once again, it's refreshing to see someone here actually look at Scripture and the meaning of words. I've missed reading you today.

akouō can actually trend into obedience and to understand as well. If authority says, Did you hear me!? - the implication is clear. Do what you're told!

"let him" is how translators have chosen to translate 3rd person imperative commands. Jesus is in effect saying, The one who has ears, hear [this]/listen up (a command)! Your interpretation I've highlighted above catches this pretty well. And from there, being this is a command from God to hear, I'd have no problem personally trending into the understand and do what I say concept.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not feel guilty about how I see someone saying God made them be a Believer and they had no say in the matter like God just did it whether they wanted it or not.

But I do see that You Magenta are offended.

And we are wrong to offend others.

For Offending You Magenta I am sorry.

But the way I see how some claim that God can just make you be something without consent or you being for it seems criminal in my opinion.

And I do not serve a God who is Guilty of such Coercion!

No one said God coerced them. What they have said is God enabled them. The choice is still theirs, but who can resist the wooing of God?

 

[studier]

Isn't forgiveness with a lecture and pushing favored doctrine a wonderful thing...

 

[studier]

No one said

No one? 7,245 posts and no one said...?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes this whole idea of God being reprehensible and acting criminally for carrying out His will and doing all that He pleases and His Word not returning void etc et cetera has been well covered from many angles. I appreciate your apology, although you must have known that bringing rape into the conversation in light of and/or comparing it to God's unilateral moves would be offensive to some. Not unlike having God move first called being kidnapped against one's will, making Him a tyrant, and the offer of repentance fraudulent. In my mind one does not equal the other. But I suppose to some that is the freedom they have: to call God evil for doing what He promised He would do.

Two places in the Bible we see God made the person become something he was not. And in both cases we also see the person them self was already doing what God later become permanent. And in both cases it was used to demonstrate a Message to the Followers of God.

We are talking about salvation and we see all throughout the Israel history they made declarations like I will serve God this day and we see ""nowhere"" that God made them do it. They did it in "Free Will." So to suddenly think God is making people be saved without the person choosing to follow God goes directly against all Biblical examples we have of saved people in the Bible.

And it's like them forcing me to believe a lie against my will at all cost. I will not adhere to such a doctrine.

And Thank You for acknowledging my apology. I do not wish to offend anyone here. Especially to someone who has been so kind to me as You have been.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No one said God coerced them. What they have said is God enabled them. The choice is still theirs, but who can resist the wooing of God?

Personally, I see your point, I really do.

But as someone who follows an organization that keeps track of who they have preached the Gospel to, who has confirmed they believe and now live as a Believer. Sadly, out of 5 billion people around the world they have preached to including all current Church numbers, only 2.5 Billion claim to Believe in God. And of the 3.5 Billion who do not say they reject the message.

Hopefully some of those will change their minds as the Spirit of God works on them. But we know from the Bible only "few" will ultimately be saved and find the Narrow Gate.

 

[Magenta]

Two places in the Bible we see God made the person become something he was not. And in both cases we also see the person them self was already doing what God later become permanent. And in both cases it was used to demonstrate a Message to the Followers of God.

We are talking about salvation and we see all throughout the Israel history they made declarations like I will serve God this day and we see ""nowhere"" that God made them do it. They did it in "Free Will." So to suddenly think God is making people be saved without the person choosing to follow God goes directly against all Biblical examples we have of saved people in the Bible.

And it's like them forcing me to believe a lie against my will at all cost. I will not adhere to such a doctrine.

And Thank You for acknowledging my apology. I do not wish to offend anyone here. Especially to someone who has been so kind to me as You have been.

There is a difference between God making anyone do something as opposed to God enabling someone to do something... and providing for you what is necessary for you to be able to do so... like giving you lungs so you can breathe. By grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of yourself it is a gift from God so that no one may boast. Although to be sure when God made you alive He didn't enable you to come to life, He made you alive. That is what Scripture says. To hear people speak of this phenomena is just perplexing... to make God out to be some kind of a criminal for making you alive. You didn't answer whether or not you believe you are predestined to be conformed to Jesus. Kind of funny that you bring the Israeli history into it when their "yes we will do all that you say" inevitably turned into them disobeying in just about every way possible. Jesus said we could do nothing aside from Him and it is also a fact that in Scripture elsewhere we are told that it is God who moves in us to will and to act according to His good purpose.

 

[studier]

I see the "to make (poiEsai, aorist active infinitive)" in Rom. 9:21 as meaning "to designate", as it does when scripture talks of "making God a liar." (1 John1:9-10)

I hadn't thought of this, so will file it for consideration. poieō is a big project, a very common word.

Some good thoughts about John the B. also. Thanks. Sounds like more of the Sovereignty of God cf. the will of man consideration.

I think God explains Himself well enough for His purposes. Do you have any theories on why God has chosen to communicate with us through ambiguous sentences and paragraphs that allow for various interpretations which Christians end up divided over ?

Agree.

I don't think all is as ambiguous as we may think it is. Just some more revealing and work necessary as time moves forward. But I do think ambiguities and seeming holes end up having made and make us work constantly and intently for millennia, provide seemingly endless opportunities for proper behavior among us even though we don't do all that well at it, make for tremendous training to seek understanding from Him as the battle is waged here for Truth, etc., etc.

I recall coming to grips with some of this when I was studying His Law, which I've started and stopped several times over the years. I read a statement in a fairly lengthy book on Law that prefaced that no one understands God's Law. Some years later I just accepted that to know such things is to know Him which is beyond our capacities so far. We just do our best and He reveals what He wills when He wills. The old adage comes in: The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

I'd love to see the corporate unity living up to the Head per Eph4, but it seems vastly remote unless it's hidden like the remnant was. IOW He knows who are His and where they are and the big picture we see with supposed tens of thousands of denominations is not spiritual reality. As I've also said, the more I know, the more I just rest on the foundation (while working) that I know and believe who He is.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

There is a difference between God making anyone do something as opposed to God enabling someone to do something... and providing for you what is necessary for you to be able to do so... like giving you lungs so you can breathe. By grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of yourself it is a gift from God so that no one may boast. Although to be sure when God made you alive He didn't enable you to come to life, He made you alive. That is what Scripture says. To hear people speak of this phenomena is just perplexing... to make God out to be some kind of a criminal for making you alive. You didn't answer whether or not you believe you are predestined to be conformed to Jesus. Kind of funny that you bring the Israeli history into it when their "yes we will do all that you say" inevitably turned into them disobeying in just about every way possible. Jesus said we could do nothing aside from Him and it is also a fact that in Scripture elsewhere we are told that it is God who moves in us to will and to act according to His good purpose.

The Bible in multiple places says while they heard, not before, but as they were hearing...the Holy Spirit fell upon them....

But some here, 4 specifically, claim before they even heard preaching the Gospel, they were already regenerated. That is literally impossible according to the Bible.

That means they are saying, they didn't even have to BELIEVE Jesus is God because God bypassed every example in the Bible He Inspired in writing just for them.

They just became saved.

NOWHERE in the 66 Books is there any such example of that ever happening, nowhere!


I already told you what was predestined. That Believers in God would be Holy, Blameless, and Adopted because once you are in Jesus [in Him], this is what God designed before the foundation of the Earth.

In other words, the moment I heard the Gospel being preached, the Holy Spirit fell upon me, I Believed and was Regenerated, I became everything described in Ephesians. I became Holy, I became Blameless, I became Adopted Heirs of God. Because I now was in HIM [Christ Jesus].

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible in multiple places says while they heard, not before, but as they were hearing...the Holy Spirit fell upon them....

But some here, 4 specifically, claim before they even heard preaching the Gospel, they were already regenerated. That is literally impossible according to the Bible.

That means they are saying, they didn't even have to BELIEVE Jesus is God because God bypassed every example in the Bible He Inspired in writing just for them.

They just became saved.

NOWHERE in the 66 Books is there any such example of that ever happening, nowhere!


I already told you what was predestined. That Believers in God would be Holy, Blameless, and Adopted because once you are in Jesus [in Him], this is what God designed before the foundation of the Earth.

In other words, the moment I heard the Gospel being preached, the Holy Spirit fell upon me, I Believed and was Regenerated, I became everything described in Ephesians. I became Holy, I became Blameless, I became Adopted Heirs of God. Because I now was in HIM [Christ Jesus].

Do you believe the Holy Spirit falling on someone is the same thing as the Spirit indwelling someone?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Do you believe the Holy Spirit falling on someone is the same thing as the Spirit indwelling someone?

The Bible said when the Holy Spirit fell on the Greeks [Cornelius] they began speaking in tongues. You cannot speak in tongues unless you are filled with the Spirit. So falling on them and them immediately speaking in tongues is the Spirit indwelling them. Or they would have spoke in tongues before that.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Ruach ha-Kodesh fell on all those hearing the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were astonished, because the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.

 

[Rufus]

There's sinning and then there is rejecting God on purpose. That is what hearing from God and not doing as He wants you to do is.

Oh...you mean like what king David did?

A transgressor (wilful sinner) always rejects God on purpose, for your info!

 

[Rufus]

You can't be a doer if you don't first hear what you are supposed to do.

Now that just makes too much common sense, which is why Mr. Shiloh will reject it.

 

[Rufus]

God created ALL humans.
To think that when God speaks that a human cannot hear, Knowing that God knows how to speak to dead people, just shows the ignorance of some claiming to be Christian.

Yeah, God most assuredly knows how to speak to dead people; it's only NR folks like yourself who don't know how he does that.

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible said when the Holy Spirit fell on the Greeks [Cornelius] they began speaking in tongues. You cannot speak in tongues unless you are filled with the Spirit. So falling on them and them immediately speaking in tongues is the Spirit indwelling them. Or they would have spoke in tongues before that.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Ruach ha-Kodesh fell on all those hearing the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were astonished, because the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.

There is a difference between the indwelling of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit.

The baptism of the Spirit is an outward manifestation of the Spirit that is a sign and seal to the believer. It is what happened to the twelve on the day of Pentecost. And it continued to happen throughout the book of Acts. And still happens today. It is the promise of the Father and spoken of in Ephesians 1:13.
The indwelling of the Spirit is inward and nonexperiential. It is a baptism of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is what places one into Christ.
It's 2 different operations of the Spirit. Jesus does the first...He will baptize with the Spirit and fire. The second is the Spirit Himself placing us into Christ.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Oh...you mean like what king David did?

A transgressor (wilful sinner) always rejects God on purpose, for your info!

We know a Sinner lost is always going to reject God so why waste time mentioning it?

It's when Believers do it that's the issue at hand.

Stop throwing sinners under the Bus to keep you company.

Not a good look.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yeah, God most assuredly knows how to speak to dead people; it's only NR folks like yourself who don't know how he does that.

It's good to see you admit that God can speak to dead people.

That was my intention to see if you would admit to it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

There is a difference between the indwelling of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit.

The baptism of the Spirit is an outward manifestation of the Spirit that is a sign and seal to the believer. It is what happened to the twelve on the day of Pentecost. And it continued to happen throughout the book of Acts. And still happens today. It is the promise of the Father and spoken of in Ephesians 1:13.
The indwelling of the Spirit is inward and nonexperiential. It is a baptism of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is what places one into Christ.
It's 2 different operations of the Spirit. Jesus does the first...He will baptize with the Spirit and fire. The second is the Spirit Himself placing us into Christ.

Doesn't matter. No One speaks in tongues without being indwelled. The verse plainly states when the Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues. It only works when you are filled with the Spirit. Otherwise it is just fake.