Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

That's the problem with you posting snippets of verse and my responding to your snippet, without checking context of your snippet.
John 11:25-27

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that is believing in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever is living and is believing in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Jesus is alluding to himself being the resurrection and life raising all the dead saints on the last day.
The souls believing in Jesus on that day, though his body were dead, will rise again and live physically.
And those alive on that day, will be changed in the twinkling of an eye without dying.

It's not about regeneration at all.

So, v.26 is saying "whosoever WILL be living [on the last day] and will be believing in me...?

Really? I see parallels in the passage.

V.25 He who now believes in me will live [physically] even though he dies [physically].
V. 26 and whoever [spiritually] lives [now] and believes in me will never [spiritually] die.

This makes a lot more sense since even the spiritually alive will physically die one day. Furthermore, on the last day, faith will be replaced by SIGHT! Faith and Hope all pass away beginning on the Last Day. The only thing that remains forever is love. Look up the biblical definition of Faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

So, v.26 is saying "whosoever WILL be living [on the last day] and will be believing in me...?

Really? I see parallels in the passage.

V.25 He who now believes in me will live [physically] even though he dies [physically].
V. 26 and whoever [spiritually] lives [now] and believes in me will never [spiritually] die.

This makes a lot more sense since even the spiritually alive will physically die one day. Furthermore, on the last day, faith will be replaced by SIGHT! Faith and Hope all pass away beginning on the Last Day. The only thing that remains forever is love. Look up the biblical definition of Faith.

"Believes in me" seems redundant, if one chooses your interpretation. And your version does not account so well for the Greek tenses John uses. But I realise that those points are irrelevant to you, so long as you can squeeze the verse into your systematic.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am out for coffee right now and not able to look up verses to support any thoughts I might have on what the Bible says about death, but obviously there is more than one type of death spoken of, for there is physical death and there is what we call spiritual death, and there is also the first death which all experience, and the second death which is everlasting for those who suffer it (believers escape the second death). Jesus spoke of death as sleep and some revile thinking along those lines as if Jesus was a liar. Such people mock the idea of death being likened to sleep, and claim that sleep is a metaphor for wakefulness... which is pretty strange, if you ask me.

" Born once, die twice; born twice, die once."

What you call spiritual death, is never called spiritual death by scripture. I've presented my definitions with biblical support. I look forward to the other posters where who are using some other definition supporting their definitions from scripture.

 

[PaulThomson]

Please excuse me for finding somewhat hilarious the fact that you pick and pick and pick at others for not sticking to exactly what the Bible says while you adamantly and repeatedly refused to admit how frequently you go beyond what the Bible actually explicitly states while making rationalizations for doing so.

Hell hath no fury...

 

[Rufus]

I looked. There is no verse in the entire Bible where "never" and "glory" both occur.

Why would God give or share any of his eternal glory with any of his moral creatures when man (especially) was created for God's OWN glory -- and when the chief end of man is to live his entire life for the Glory of God? Seems to me that God would be quite zealous for his own glory since there is no one greater than him. And he would not only zealous for his own glory but JEALOUS as well. God is a Jealous God. This is why he was so angry at Israel for their idolatry. What do idol worshipers do, if not give glory to idols that God alone deserves? Is your understanding of scripture this shallow?

Then we have these to ponder:

Isa 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NASB

And,

Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

And,

Ezek 38:23
23 "And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord."'
NASB

And,

Ps 138:2
2 I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.
NIV

How is possible that a God whose own Name is exalted above ALL things would ever share his glory with his clay pots, with the sons of men who are but worms compared to him?

Yes, there is no text that says "never", but show me a text that says "maybe I will".

 

[Rufus]

What you call spiritual death, is never called spiritual death by scripture. I've presented my definitions with biblical support. I look forward to the other posters where who are using some other definition supporting their definitions from scripture.

So, tell us: What kind of death did Adam die on the day he sinned?

 

[PaulThomson]

Why would God give or share any of his eternal glory with any of his moral creatures when man (especially) was created for God's OWN glory -- and when the chief end of man is to live his entire life for the Glory of God? Seems to me that God would be quite zealous for his own glory since there is no one greater than him. And he would not only zealous for his own glory but JEALOUS as well. God is a Jealous God. This is why he was so angry at Israel for their idolatry. What do idol worshipers do, if not give glory to idols that God alone deserves? Is your understanding of scripture this shallow?

Then we have these to ponder:

Isa 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NASB

And,

Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

And,

Ezek 38:23
23 "And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord."'
NASB

And,

Ps 138:2
2 I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.
NIV

How is possible that a God whose own Name is exalted above ALL things would ever share his glory with his clay pots, with the sons of men who are but worms compared to him?

Yes, there is no text that says "never", but show me a text that says "maybe I will".

I know you hate considering context, but what is the glory of God that the context of Is. 42:8 is indicating God will not share? And given that the imperfect form of Hebrew verbs are tenseless, so the same form can mean I was not giving, I am not giving, and I will not be

So, v.26 is saying "whosoever WILL be living [on the last day] and will be believing in me...?

No. It's saying, "whoever is living" at the time being referenced by the context. We disagree on which time is being referenced by the context.

 

[rogerg]

Hello, Roger … What’s your understanding of Ephesians 1:13-14?
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Hi selahsays - I believe that Eph 1:13 - 14 is speaking about the after-affects, or the results of salvation, with the hearing of the word of truth being spiritual hearing of it, not human hearing - and believing through that (although all of His elect will/must believe - but God chose to employ that mechanism to achieve it). Were it all not of Him, then none of it would/could none be to the praise of His glory. BTW, I believe the redemption of the purchased possession occurs on the last day which results in the actual redemption of the elect.
If you see it differently, please let me know.
Hope this helps and makes sense. If not, let me know and I'll try to explain further.

Thanks,
Roger

 

[PaulThomson]

Why would God give or share any of his eternal glory with any of his moral creatures when man (especially) was created for God's OWN glory -- and when the chief end of man is to live his entire life for the Glory of God? Seems to me that God would be quite zealous for his own glory since there is no one greater than him. And he would not only zealous for his own glory but JEALOUS as well. God is a Jealous God. This is why he was so angry at Israel for their idolatry. What do idol worshipers do, if not give glory to idols that God alone deserves? Is your understanding of scripture this shallow?

Then we have these to ponder:

Isa 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NASB

And,

Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

And,

Ezek 38:23
23 "And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord."'
NASB

And,

Ps 138:2
2 I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.
NIV

How is possible that a God whose own Name is exalted above ALL things would ever share his glory with his clay pots, with the sons of men who are but worms compared to him?

Yes, there is no text that says "never", but show me a text that says "maybe I will".

So, you are resorting to an argumnt from silence. Another logical fallacy.

I know you hate considering context, but what is the glory of God that the context of Is. 42:8 is indicating God will not share? And given that the imperfect form of Hebrew verbs are tenseless, so the same form can mean I was not giving, I am not giving, and I will not be giving.

It could be translated as "For my own sake, for my own sake, I am doing it: for how should my name be polluted? And I am not giving my glory to another." And this does not necessarily imply the idea of "I will never". In fact, "I will not give my glory to another" does not imply "never" if God is referring to the immediate circumstances and the near future.

 

[PaulThomson]

Were it all not of Him, then none of it would/could none be to the praise of His glory.

There is no logic to that statement.

 

[Magenta]

What you call spiritual death, is never called spiritual death by scripture.

I know... that is why I said, "what we call spiritual death." Your nit picking knows no bounds. Nor do your denials.

Hell hath no fury...

Exactly why I have you on ignore. Your pretenses and avoidance and false accusations never end.

A reminder that you specifically asked me to show you where you went beyond what the text explicitly states.

Your dishonesty in this regard compounds with every denial from you.

So, you are resorting to an argumnt from silence. Another logical fallacy.

You do it a lot. Cue another denial from you...

 

[PaulThomson]

Why would God give or share any of his eternal glory with any of his moral creatures when man (especially) was created for God's OWN glory -- and when the chief end of man is to live his entire life for the Glory of God? Seems to me that God would be quite zealous for his own glory since there is no one greater than him. And he would not only zealous for his own glory but JEALOUS as well. God is a Jealous God. This is why he was so angry at Israel for their idolatry. What do idol worshipers do, if not give glory to idols that God alone deserves? Is your understanding of scripture this shallow?

Then we have these to ponder:

Isa 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NASB

And,

Isa 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

And,

Ezek 38:23
23 "And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord."'
NASB

And,

Ps 138:2
2 I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.
NIV

How is possible that a God whose own Name is exalted above ALL things would ever share his glory with his clay pots, with the sons of men who are but worms compared to him?

Yes, there is no text that says "never", but show me a text that says "maybe I will".

Is. 42:8 introduces "my glory I will not give to another" with "I am Yahweh". Yahweh means the ever-existing. By implication the first of all beings. The Hebrew word for "another" means "following, second or third..." God will not credit primacy to any that came after Him. His ever-existence is His unique glory.

And Is. 48:11 is followed by "I am He. I am the first. I am also the last." Again, God's primacy, by reason of His ever-existence, is in view.

God is sharing many other aspects of His glory with men through Jesus. Jesus ha=s been given all that is the father's and is taking what all the Father gave Him and distributing it to us. But not His ever-existence. He remains the first.

 

[PaulThomson]

I know... that is why I said, "what we call spiritual death." Your nit picking knows no bounds. Nor do your denials.


Exactly why I have you on ignore. Your pretenses and avoidance and false accusations never end.

A reminder that you specifically asked me to show you where you went beyond what the text explicitly states.

Your dishonesty in this regard compounds with every denial from you.


You do it a lot. Cue another denial from you...

Accusation alluding to alleged crimes that are not forensically proven are water off a duck's back. If you have a genuine complaint, you should be able to document it, and not just allege crimes without evidence.

Argumentum ad hominem is the resort of those who can't rally a cogent argument to defend their claims.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 6:23~ The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Magenta]

Accusation alluding to alleged crimes that are not forensically proven are water off a duck's back. If you have a genuine complaint, you should be able to document it, and not just allege crimes without evidence.

Argumentum ad hominem is the resort of those who can't rally a cogent argument to defend their claims.

That's why I countered your ad hom. Of course you will deny and/or excuse your offense once again. It's your MO.

 

[Magenta]

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[Magenta]

Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622

 

[Magenta]

Ezekiel 18:4 plus 32

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 10:25~ When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

 

[Magenta]

John 3:16