Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
Yes, this is what you do. But we are taught to cast our cares upon Him. Your first step should have been to pray. It should have come naturally to you as you should have been carrying on a conversation with God when you found out the battery wasn't working. Had you, He would have taken care of the problem for you.
You decided you would solve your problem apart from God, and live independently of Him. How does this please God? Not only didn't you hear His voice, you weren't even listening. Not only didn't you see what God was doing, you weren't even looking for Him. In short, you are in charge of your life.
Someone being led by God would know that the dead battery wasn't happenstance. God can keep a battery working as long as He likes. And those being led of God also know that...this is the day the LORD has made. That is, each new day is a creation of God. Each day is unique and different from everyone that came before or will follow. And that particular day has God's designs for us personally. The dead battery was simply an opportunity for God to exercise His love and care for us. You never gave Him the opportunity to do so. You were so busy running your own life that you missed God.

NKJ 1 Pet. 5:5-7 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

This is a lesson with commands to be properly submissive to others. It firstly speaks of an authority structure God has created, youth in humble submission to elders. The reasoning drawn from Scripture is that God gives grace to the humble - those in proper submission to proper authority and then in proper submission to the interests of others. The command to humble yourselves under God's might hand is speaking in this context, to be properly submissive to what He has structured and ordained. He is the one who will exalt us when He determines to do so, so don't be prideful and exalt yourself or you'll find yourself being opposed to God's mighty hand instead of being given His grace. If you truly want to understand the final part of the command that you use to say God will charge everyone's car battery if they just pray, then you'll need to chase the reference back to the Psalms and into how Jesus spoke of a similar concept. I'd suggest you retain the context of God exalting in His time and not being anxious about it.​

NKJ 1 Thessalonians 5:17 pray without ceasing,

NKJ Luke 11:1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."​

Most literally the command to pray without ceasing means to not lack - to not be deficient - in prayer.​
Prayer is indeed important. God determines what to answer, how and when to answer, and what not to answer, which is in itself an answer.​
It's presumptuous of you to say God will always charge your dead battery. The typical progression of this guidance is to then say, as you have essentially done, that if God does not charge your battery, then there must be something wrong with your faith and suggest you are harboring unconfessed sin.​
I was walking through a beautiful outdoor shopping complex one time in the heart of Orange County CA where at the time TBN had it's headquarters in the area. I noticed a man walking in my direction with a sling on his arm. I then recognized him to be a very well-known TV personality who had a healing ministry. Reach out and touch your TV screen and receive God's healing and send us a love gift.​
I was near enough to ask him why the sling. I chose to hold my peace and thanked our Lord for showing me the nonsense done in His name.​
What is it you are choosing to expose yourself to that is ordering your thinking?​
NKJ Psalm 118:24 This is the day the LORD has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it.

I'll let the NET Bible notes explain this, so it's not me. I don't expect you'll consider either of us, but here it is:​
NET Notes (Psa 118:24) 30 tn Heb "this is the day the LORD has made." Though sometimes applied in a general way, this statement in its context refers to the day of deliverance which the psalmist and people celebrate.​
Men have made many religious traditions from reading the Word of God. Then they created little to large sectarian societies who assume their traditions.

After entering the Faith as a newborn temporal adult, I soon came to realize how many biblically unlearned people and charlatans there are. I simply have since chosen to pursue the accurate interpretation of the "Word of Truth."

NKJ 2 Tim. 2:15-16 Be diligent to present yourself approved (genuine, valuable) to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.​

My batteries stay pretty well-charged these days, Cameron. And I have studied and taught some things about "godliness."
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,006
402
83
I doubt you can prove with Scripture where such contradictions exist. I'm prepared to look at your evidence but won't agree to accepting your interpretations. Convince me. Merry-go-round once again?

Really? Were the ancient Hebrews in Egypt free or enslaved? Your entire ubiblical hypothesis certainly seems to rest upon the assumption that there is in the bible and in the real world such a thing free slaves.

Moreover, the concept that true spiritual freedom is a two-edged sword is clearly found in Rom 6:22. The saints have explicitly been set free from [the power, control of] sin and have become " (servants to God). If I paraphrased this passage to read:

"But now you have been set free FROM sin and are now free to serve God, this would not change the sense of the passage. "Freedom to" is implied in the "slaves or servants of God".

In our glorified states in eternity, we will all become perfect servants of God since we will finally be set completely free from the presence of sin. This freedom FROM...will give us perfect freedom TO...

A simple concept really....since there no such animal as freedom in bondage or a free slave.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
So, the drawing of God to you is simply divine revelation? There's no experiental drawing?

Your view above is lopsided because you emphasize the need for the Word of God to the exclusion of his Holy Spirit. Yet, scripture is quite clear: God's elect have been born of the Spirit AND the Word.

You referenced John 6:44. I pointed you to pick up some context and let our Lord explain Himself to you.

The discussion of the work of the Spirit is another one. However, you may want to this parallelism - this correlation - between the Word of God and the Spirit of God as explained in the Word of God by the Spirit of God:

NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.​
Then consider:​
NKJ Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;​

NKJ Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​
NKJ Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.​
You negate the correlation of the Word and the Spirit and the power of God to your own peril in accuracy.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
It's you sir who avoid biblical truth

I just read this first sentence and did not yet go beyond. Since it brought to mind the formality of a dual (and made me smile), I'm going to have to step back in favor of choosing something else to do for a bit. I'll return later to receive the slap of the glove and the terms of the confrontation. Based upon what I've seen, I have no anxieties of the show-down. My cares have all been cast upon Him as @Cameron143 has advised.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
It is spiritual, but it's not the Holy Spirit. Read John 3 for starters.
Hi, you. The Word of God is too the Holy Spirit. IMG_4511.gif

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

- Hebrews 4:12
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,062
6,873
113
62
NKJ 1 Pet. 5:5-7 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

This is a lesson with commands to be properly submissive to others. It firstly speaks of an authority structure God has created, youth in humble submission to elders. The reasoning drawn from Scripture is that God gives grace to the humble - those in proper submission to proper authority and then in proper submission to the interests of others. The command to humble yourselves under God's might hand is speaking in this context, to be properly submissive to what He has structured and ordained. He is the one who will exalt us when He determines to do so, so don't be prideful and exalt yourself or you'll find yourself being opposed to God's mighty hand instead of being given His grace. If you truly want to understand the final part of the command that you use to say God will charge everyone's car battery if they just pray, then you'll need to chase the reference back to the Psalms and into how Jesus spoke of a similar concept. I'd suggest you retain the context of God exalting in His time and not being anxious about it.​

NKJ 1 Thessalonians 5:17 pray without ceasing,

NKJ Luke 11:1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."​

Most literally the command to pray without ceasing means to not lack - to not be deficient - in prayer.​
Prayer is indeed important. God determines what to answer, how and when to answer, and what not to answer, which is in itself an answer.​
It's presumptuous of you to say God will always charge your dead battery. The typical progression of this guidance is to then say, as you have essentially done, that if God does not charge your battery, then there must be something wrong with your faith and suggest you are harboring unconfessed sin.​
I was walking through a beautiful outdoor shopping complex one time in the heart of Orange County CA where at the time TBN had it's headquarters in the area. I noticed a man walking in my direction with a sling on his arm. I then recognized him to be a very well-known TV personality who had a healing ministry. Reach out and touch your TV screen and receive God's healing and send us a love gift.​
I was near enough to ask him why the sling. I chose to hold my peace and thanked our Lord for showing me the nonsense done in His name.​
What is it you are choosing to expose yourself to that is ordering your thinking?​
NKJ Psalm 118:24 This is the day the LORD has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it.

I'll let the NET Bible notes explain this, so it's not me. I don't expect you'll consider either of us, but here it is:​
NET Notes (Psa 118:24) 30 tn Heb "this is the day the LORD has made." Though sometimes applied in a general way, this statement in its context refers to the day of deliverance which the psalmist and people celebrate.​
Men have made many religious traditions from reading the Word of God. Then they created little to large sectarian societies who assume their traditions.

After entering the Faith as a newborn temporal adult, I soon came to realize how many biblically unlearned people and charlatans there are. I simply have since chosen to pursue the accurate interpretation of the "Word of Truth."

NKJ 2 Tim. 2:15-16 Be diligent to present yourself approved (genuine, valuable) to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.​

My batteries stay pretty well-charged these days, Cameron. And I have studied and taught some things about "godliness."
It's a shame that for all your effort that you have never bumped into God. And as usual, you missed the point. No one is saved for salvation's sake. They are saved to know God, and in experiencing Him find satisfaction and joy and worship Him. As people live in the overflow of this love, the knowledge of the glory of God will fill the earth. We are to be yoked to Jesus in a moment by moment rrelationship to enable this.
The example of the battery was simply to see what your approach to life is. You made clear that you choose for yourself and that you don't believe God will help you in the mundane considerations in life. But that doesn't change the fact that God is a near and present help. Neither does it change the fact that you could have met God in a new and more intimate way. You went to great lengths to show me how creatively and intimately God made each of us. Is He now less disposed to work creatively and intimately in His spiritual children?
I'll stop here because you are clearly upset with me. And I apologize if my clumsy use of language conveyed anything other than a desire for your well-being. Grace and peace.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
A child does imitate the motions of the adult, but not the motivations of the adult. There is outward conformity, but not inward conformity. The heart is still wayward. The motivation is self centered, not other centered. If the heart is never dealt with, the best that can be expected is a form of conformity that lacks an inward reality.
When it comes to God, you end up with a mere practice of religious ritual...a form of godliness, but a denying of the power thereof. This is why many can be raised in religious homes who leave religion and God later on. They have not been converted, only take on an exterior shallow religious shell. They never knew God, or were known by Him. Unless God comes personally and directly to an individual and changes their wayward heart, they are none of His.
Now you are stuffing the word "imitate" with all kinds of content that is not intrinsic to the word, in order to make bible texts using it seem to support total depravity. That is not what imitate means.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,006
402
83
You referenced John 6:44. I pointed you to pick up some context and let our Lord explain Himself to you.

The discussion of the work of the Spirit is another one. However, you may want to this parallelism - this correlation - between the Word of God and the Spirit of God as explained in the Word of God by the Spirit of God:

NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.​
Then consider:​
NKJ Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;​

NKJ Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​
NKJ Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.​
You negate the correlation of the Word and the Spirit and the power of God to your own peril in accuracy.
I don't negate the correlation. But the fact remains that the spiritually deaf, blind and dead cannot understand spiritual truth until their ears are supernaturally unstopped, the scales are removed from their eyes and they are raised from their spiritual tombs. And the fact also remains that one must be born of the Spirit and the Word! See John 3. The Word is not the third person of the Trinity, is it?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,062
6,873
113
62
Now you are stuffing the word "imitate" with all kinds of content that is not intrinsic to the word, in order to make bible texts using it seem to support total depravity. That is not what imitate means.
So what specifically is your objection?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,006
402
83
Hi, you. The Word of God is too the Holy Spirit. View attachment 265232

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

- Hebrews 4:12
No, the Word of God is spoken by and proceeds from the Holy Spirit.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,006
402
83
I just read this first sentence and did not yet go beyond. Since it brought to mind the formality of a dual (and made me smile), I'm going to have to step back in favor of choosing something else to do for a bit. I'll return later to receive the slap of the glove and the terms of the confrontation. Based upon what I've seen, I have no anxieties of the show-down. My cares have all been cast upon Him as @Cameron143 has advised.
You should have. You might have learned why I said that. To postulate that slaves are nonetheless free is to descend in a very dark pit. This is why I believe God who is Light and challenge those who obviously don't.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,383
529
113
Man in his fallen state when devoid of God's power of grace can not have his will free to seek God.

That is settled.

But, what the "dead man" themed theologians keep missing is that God's Spirit is everywhere, and his grace can be applied as God sovereignly chooses as he pleases at any time, anywhere.

Grace puts dead men on spiritual life support. Making them able to see as much as God wants them to see to make them accountable for what will take place in the Final Judgment.

Yes. Man in his fallen state is spiritually dead.

But, God isn't dead.

Is God too weak to make a blind man to see? A deaf man to hear?

Can we get on with life and go beyond this same incessantly obstruction to growth dogma of the Calvinists?

Wasted time.... and dead who think they are alive.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,383
529
113
Most will not understand the [unique] terminology. It'll be interesting to see if any ask about it.
That's why they are forever to be stunted in spiritual growth.
Never growing beyond the crib they see as their fortress.

And, wanting it that way. That's the sad part.

Just the same. What can happen (and has) is that someone takes the time to break it down for them, and they are willing to learn.
That requires concentration that without the filling of the Spirit will fall on deaf ears.

That's why Jesus said....

“Enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and broad is the road leading-away
to destruction— and many are the ones entering through it. How narrow is the gate and constricted
is the road leading-away to life— and few are the ones finding it.

Matthew 7:13-14
Disciples’ Literal New Testament​

The "broad and wide" way describes why we find so many denominations, each created and designed to please the thinking of the flesh of particular believers.

The few that find the Life more abundantly? The life Jesus spoke of? These will find themselves in churches with pastors who are intelligent, independent, and informed. No denominational censorship.

There are many destabilizing problems we face today caused by evil, that can be overcome within the believer's mind having accurate sound doctrinal thinking. Thinking in such a manner that he could find himself resting in the midst of all the chaos around him.. A peace which can be mistaken by others for conceit by those failing to secure the truth they need in order for God to stabilize them and give them peace.

Yet, the Lord Jesus Christ is still on His Throne.

If He wants for there to be a Word of God revival? So it will be.
We need a Word of God revival. Not simply people getting saved being left free to emote in all directions off of the map.

For a season in time. It might happen.


grace and peace....
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
You should have. You might have learned why I said that. To postulate that slaves are nonetheless free is to descend in a very dark pit. This is why I believe God who is Light and challenge those who obviously don't.
So, a slave to their job can never do anything except work at their job? A slave to chocolate cannot possibly ever drsite or eat anything but chocolate? A slave to tradition can never for a second do anything untraditional? And a slave to some master can never possibly obey anyone but his master at any time? This is your working concept of slavery you apply to the Bible ?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,383
529
113
I know exactly what the kenosis of Christ means. And it's still a non sequitur to the topic.

https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html

And the question of whether or not Christ could be tempted is another question involving the doctrine of the Impeccability
of Christ.

https://www.monergism.com/impeccability-christ

You can sort these out for yourself and actually learn something -- or not. I have no time for rabbit trails.


Good job in contradicting yourself and scripture. Bad Trees can still choose to do Good? Men with evil hearts CAN choose to speak good of God, in spite of what Christ taught? That is your definition of free? God-hating Man who is free from holiness, righteousness and goodness, is yet at the same time free to make good, righteous, holy choices? Really? And in your universe, this is perfectly logical? Man is free to make these kind of choices even though he is in bondage to sin and to his spiritual father the devil -- and to the world for that matter!? Mankind is totally immersed in Darkness (Death) from within and from out, but yet he can free himself from this bondage just making good choices? In your world unregenerate man is a free slave! I had nor idea you were such a fan of oxymorons. No wonder you were so dismissive of my Exodus argument which is a type of spiritual redemption!

And you keep ducking the real issue which is: Is God a free moral agent, since He cannot sin? And I say, YES! And so will all the saints in their glorified states in the next age be free moral agents -- totally free as their Creator is! There will be no slavery in the eternal order.

And you keep appealing to Natural Revelation as your go-to defense not understanding what Paul wrote! Evil men suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they do not want to retain God in their knowledge! A perfectly logical statement given the wicked disposition of men's hearts! Don't you know that men have this kind of wicked disposition of heart because apart from Christ they CAN DO NOTHING!?

And, yes, man is still morally responsible because all men have the knowledge of Good and Evil! And men drink evil like water!
Why are you here to disrupt?
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
Really? Were the ancient Hebrews in Egypt free or enslaved? Your entire ubiblical hypothesis certainly seems to rest upon the assumption that there is in the bible and in the real world such a thing free slaves.
The reality is, as I've said many times and have even posted Scripture to address you, there were Hebrews in physical slavery who were free in their minds to think about God, do things that they understood to be right vs. wrong according to God, and cry out for physical freedom such that God heard them.

Freedom from sin is far from the issue at this juncture.

Your unbiblical hypothesis begins with a complete misunderstanding of spiritual death and what God is able to do and has done within the minds of men under sin to divinely give them information they can retain by choice. I think His word has power you know not of.

You really should grasp this concept of free slaves. If that's how you want to state it, I can understand and deal with the concept even though you use it pejoratively.

The rest of your post simply bypasses the biblical reality of what I've just said and mixes in ultimate freedom of sin, which is not the issue of freedom we're dealing with here. What we're dealing with is part of the process God has instituted in His Creation in taking it back to the unfallen, free-from-sin state.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
It's a shame that for all your effort that you have never bumped into God

It's more than a shame that you choose to think yourself qualified to say what my experiences with God have been and what my relationship with God is. At quick glance I see no responses to posted Scriptures, so I'm not proceeding to address more of your error at this time.