Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

Besides your reply being a non sequitur to what I posted, you are absolutely wrong about Jesus not coming as God incarnate at his first advent. How could he unequivocally have claimed to be the Son of God, and the Father himself refer to him as his Son in whom he is well pleased, if Jesus had parked his divinity in God only knows where? Or do you think that Jesus was just God's adopted Son...like any of God's saints?

You are failing to understand what the following means.

Who, being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God ​

something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

And being found in appearance as a man,​

he humbled himself​

by becoming obedient to death—​

even death on a cross! ​

​

Philippians 2:6-8​

He was always being God in hypostatic union. (Soul and Deity)
But, to become as a man?
He needed to deny Himself of His right to function in His powers of Deity.

Who, eternally being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God ​

something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

Just because He was God incarnate?
That does not mean He functioned in the power of God when choosing to make himself be as a man.
For he chose for His soul to only experience what its like to be a man. His Deity went into neutral in
reference to influencing nor empowering His humanity. He did it, making Himself to function as a sinless man.


For he chose for His soul to only experience what its like to be a man.
A sinless man. He laid down his life as God, and maintained the status of being humanity in power.

Some fail to realize.. If He functioned as God in power while making Himself be as a man?
The following verse would not be true.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize ​

with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted ​

in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." Hebrews 4:15​

Why must those who believe he functioned as God be untrue?

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” ​

For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. ​

James 1:13​

Figure it out for yourself.
If God can not be tempted?
How was Jesus functioning while He was on earth?
As God? Impossible! God can not be tempted!
Or, as a man? Yes... But, without sinning.

But we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." ​

grace and peace ..........

 

[studier]

In demonic possession one is so surrendered to some "guidance system" that one obeys it without discriminating and choosing oneself what one will do. This may account for the consistently automatic programmed responses one encounters from some people, who simply absorb indiscriminately the ideas of a system and allow those ideas to pour out of themselves with no evidence of real critical thinking and questioning of those ideas going on. Perhaps a religious spirit has built a stronghold in their mind and is channelling itself through them.

This may be why some believe that forsaking choosing, and merely flowing with their automatc thought patterns, is the same thing as walking in the Spirit. This may be why some believe it is unnecessay to spend time considering seriously any material that is not in agreement with their system, and persistently avoid rrsponding candidly to questions and ideas put to them for their thoughtful response. We may sometimes be dealing with religious spirits that have taken over a person' mind, if the person has surrendered the discriminative faculty that is supposed to choose between options, and is running on autopilot.

Honestly, I've never encountered this extreme of an anti-choice point of view and such an inability to recognize choices being stated as proof there are no choices.

It dismantles the entire structure and concept of volitional commands.

With that said, I do recognize that there comes a point where what I'll just call for now the flow of life - the outworking of Christ in us - becomes more abundant. I'll use a description of maturity to explain what I mean:

Paraphrased points from Heb. 5:13-14

• The Infant/Child Christian: has a lack of knowledge and capacity - is unlearned and unskilled in the Word of Righteousness.
• Mature Christian: has the faculties/capacities for discernment that have undergone discipline/have been trained (gymnazō) for the ability to differentiate/distinguish and evaluate both good and bad/evil
  • In contrast to the infant - the mature are skilled and learned in the Word of Righteousness.

This is a simple concept our gym & sports oriented society should easily grasp:

• The beginner has little skill or discipline - little knowledge and capacity.
• The mature has been trained and disciplined and has learned and skilled faculties
• This is gym language
• The more we become trained, the better we get and the easier is the task
• One of the fascinating things about repetition training is how something can become habitual and easy. The pros make things look easy.
• In the maturity of the faculties, differentiating between good and evil becomes easier, more natural. From these trained faculties, our decisions / choices become much easier. We are thinking and doing more like Christ, conformed more to His likeness.

Conceptually it's not that difficult to understand. It's a concept that is mirrored in our everyday life. I'm sure someone could improve on my explanation, but, again, we have the guidance and wording of the Word to keep us in check.

 

[studier]

We can choose to walk in the flesh or choose to walk in the Spirit.
We have a choice. Free Will. Like Paul

Simple.

 

[PaulThomson]

without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Without faith in what? What does the context say? Heb. 11:1-10

 

[PaulThomson]

Cameron143 said:
How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?

PaulThomson said:
How would you answer this? - How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child. Do you really believe a child can imitate her parents?

God isn't interested in what you can do apart from Him. Your best efforts are falling short of the goal. And dependency upon Him is what faith is all about. He's not looking for you to try your best. He's looking for people who humble themselves and take His yoke upon them.

The Christian life isn't about doing things primarily, although one will do things. It is primarily about being conformed to the image of Christ. We can't do this, but God can. And He does so as we humble ourselves and walk after Him.
Sheep are followers, and not deciders. They do the bidding of the Shepherd. Being a Christian is about a life entangled with Christ. It's in Him that we live, and move, and have our being. We learn to hear His voice and move through life as He directs. That's what walking in the Spirit is. It's not that people can't choose as they please. It's that choosing as you please is rebellion. Following as He pleases is obedience. People who choose for themselves are not following.

You mocked the idea that someone could imitate God without God living through them. I asked you to answer the question, "How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child?"

You gave no answer. You just allowed you guidance system to run automatically and uncritically and to say whatever it felt like saying, unconnected to the question asked.

 

[studier]

7. I believe we call someone's will at any moment, the desire/s that they have prioritised as possibly worthy of having the number one position in that moment. Jesus will at various points in Gethsemane was conflicted: 1. to avoid the cross and 2. to do the Father's will. But the one He chose to act upon in the end was to do the Father's will.

It's very simple and very clear that the reality of desiring above all and choosing to do the will of God is what this is all about. It was not done in the first Adam. It was done perfectly in the second Adam. The perfection in Christ's willful actions - His perfect volitional obedience = His perfect Faith in and Love for our Father and for us is our model. Learning and freely making choices to do what pleases God is really the point of all of this. It's at the heart of living in Love for Him and for one another. It's being conformed to God's perfect Son.

Stripping human will out of the equation is horrendous according to the Text I study.

Your explanation of your process of choosing to believe was interesting. Thanks for explaining it. Having read you for awhile now, I doubt you'd say that God did not draw you to His Son and did not provide you with and ultimately teach you the information that made sense to you as the best choice. It seems He even assisted you to make the final choice.

By now there are probably several who have charged you with heresy and works salvation. I'm a bit behind. I guess I'll see.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, it is Christ Jesus within us that makes us acceptable.

We now have an unblemished record >>> justified.

This may sound controversial at first, but I would say that even those who have not accepted Christ and do not have Christ Jesus within them are acceptable - i.e. able to be accepted - and will be accepted, if they come to God with faith in God.

 

[PaulThomson]

No one walking in the Spirit is making choices, but are yielding to the choices of the Spirit. Trusting God...walking by faith...is a choice...to lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways to acknowledge Him...to accept the choices of another...

Do you mean - No one walking in the Spirit insists on his own preferences, but is subjecting his choices to the choices of the Holy Spirit. Trusting God...walking by faith... is a choice... to lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways to acknowledge Him...to accept the choices of the Holy Spirit as better than your own preferences when those two conflict ?

 

[PaulThomson]

Have you ever been led? When you are led, you aren't making choices. Someone else is making the choices for you. And so long as you continue to do as they say, you are being led. The moment you stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led by someone else and have gone your own way. You are leading yourself.

You are choosing to keep following. If you then choose to stop following, and you choose to stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
When I am being led by someone, my attention is constantly attracted to things around me, and I need to keep choosing to follow the person leading me.

Then you aren't in the Spirit. You are walking by sight.

So, do you believe one cannot be tempted, or notice anything but God, if one is walking in the Spirit?

 

[PaulThomson]

They take their eyes off the Shepherd and stop listening to His voice. They go their own way.

So, your previous statement is not correct.

Cameron143 said:
Sheep are followers, and not deciders. They do the bidding of the Shepherd.

 

[PaulThomson]

But whose faith is it? From whence come Paul's faith? Could it possibly be the gift of faith that is freely gifted to God's elect and that comes through Christ?

My friend has bought a great washing machine, and she has gifted me a new washing machine of the same model and it's user manual. I have read the gifted manual, and in giving me the manual she has given me her faith in my new machine. Is the woman doing my believing for me? Did she give me an exact replica of her own faith, or did she give me a similar faith to her own?

 

[studier]

People who insist on making their own choices in their own way in their own time are not yielded to God.

Yielding ourselves is a choice.

Who leave the choice with Him.

Which is a choice.

We aren't supposed to be running our own lives and deciding for ourselves

Parents train a child to be competent.

We are to deny ourselves, pick up the cross that God has placed before us, and follow

A choice.

Followers aren't decides. They are those who respond to the will of another.

A choice.

There is nothing about the Christian life that is to be separated from Christ. We can do nothing apart from Him. It's not that we can't choose for ourselves. But our choices are uninformed are what end up separating us from God.

So we do make choices. Amazing.

Try the phrase "informed consent." It was coined for a reason.

The informed choice is what God Consciousness per Romans 1 is all about.

The informed choice about Jesus = Christ is what the Gospel is all about. The information provided by God is what is believed. God is the first mover and primary in all things. He leads. We follow having chosen to do so.

God is raising His children to be competent choosers to both will and DO all of His will. That's the renewal of the mind. That's maturity. Thinking with the mind of Christ and choosing ultimately quite naturally to speak and to act accordingly.

The Christian life is to be lived in the power of God. We are not supposed to have a form of godliness and deny its power. We are to lose our life that we might gain the life of Christ.

Try to write any of this with words that don't denote choice.

If someone is arguing about making choices, they do not know what it is to walk in the power of the Spirit. They are clinging to their own independence from God, and not submitting to Him. They are living in their own strength, and the joy of the Lord is not their strength. They are living far below what is available to them in Christ.

Actually, we know walking in Spirit is commanded and is a choice. Alternatively, we know that sin is a choice to do the opposite of walking in the Spirit. Do you believe sin is a choice? Probably not since walking in Spirit as commanded is not a choice. Do you accept responsibility for anything?

 

[TMS]

Truth mixed with error = the TULIP analogy. Twisting the bible to fit the concepts.

Especially the error of Limited Atonement.

 

[studier]

I like that some of the posters here can propose ideas as starting points to real thinking and can reasoning together amicably towards a more convincing final position, without the seed idea being immediately denounced as heretical, because it does not fit into some heretic-hunter's ruling system. I appreciate that willingness to live with the uncertainty of incomplete theories and to patiently wait for more clarity.

Agreed. It may not seem like it but I'm constantly watching for those who will engage in actual Scripture and apply their minds and energy to understanding its meaning.

I know all this circular debating is a part of the reality, but it's not an enjoyable process.

I had a languages professor who initiated the common process of going through commentaries. I was auditing so had a side discussion with him explaining that I had little interest in that path. I understood it but didn't like being clouded with a multitude of opinions and would rather refer to some as I determined the need or desire.

He ended up telling me he understood, and confided in me that for him the process had become one of reading them mostly to see what not to think.

These forums are kind of the same thing. There are definitely some much appreciated bright spots, but much of the content is what not to think and how not to assist each other to get to the truth. It always goes back to what does the Word actually say and mean. Why so many choose not to actually discuss Scripture in as much depth as we can reach is an obvious tactic and practice revealing many problems.

 

[TMS]

We are unable to do good without God. But I'm fairly sure that everyone has felt guilt before.

Guilt is the holy Spirit working on our hearts. We would not feel it without the goodness of God.
If everyone has felt guilt, everyone is a priority for salvation. He wouldn't waste His time on the unelected. God is trying to save all.

What we do (our choice) will make the difference.

 

[TMS]

It is always this verse, sigh.

John is addressing the fact the Spirit of Jesus within us cannot sin, those who do not have the Spirit of Jesus within them still sin.

I agree
When the Spirit is in us or we are walking in the Spirit we are going to do what is righteous.

But who chooses... do we have choice. ??

Can I choose to follow my flesh rather then the Spirit.

I can choose which way I want to walk. The Spirit does all the good in us and we can not do anything good without the Spirit. But the gift is there for all.

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. .
....24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[studier]

Have you ever been led? When you are led, you aren't making choices. Someone else is making the choices for you. And so long as you continue to do as they say, you are being led. The moment you stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led by someone else and have gone your own way. You are leading yourself.

I'm continually being led having first made the informed choice to be led and to follow. Then I find myself constantly having to make decisions and choosing to continue being led and not be deceived and not to stray.

Someone else is not making choices for us. That Someone is teaching and training and disciplining us to think with a mind that knows truth and righteousness and wills and does His will with the capacities He provides.

The same is true in a relationship with God. His sheep hear what He is saying and follow or do what He says. They aren't making moment by moment choices but simply watch the Shepherd and going where He goes and doing what He says.

Study the adulthood of the New Man in Christ. The sheep analogy is one of several that must be harmonized. Men aren't sheep. Mature/Spiritual men aren't infants. Sheep don't put on the full armor of God as battle array. Sheep don't think and reason with the mind of Christ. Jesus is not just the Great Shepherd. Jesus is also the Great High Priest, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the Prophet greater than Moses and all the things the various names for God signify. God is our Father - the Father of a humanity.

There are many lessons in our Text and in life. Look at all of them.

This is only possible for someone in intimate relationship with God. Praying without ceasing is merely an ongoing conversation with God to maintain the relationship

Praying as commanded. Thus ultimately done in loving obedience by choice.

Intimate relationship is entered into by choice and maintained by choosing to be constantly vigilant using the tools and gifts we've been given and that have been developed within us to do so, while the One we're in intimate relationship with is doing the same with the inherent perfection that is His essence as He trains and develops us into being His mature intimate sons.

No one walking in the Spirit is making choices,

Stated and rejected previously. A gross misunderstanding of the reality. While walking in Spirit I'm led to choose not to proceed with the rest of your paragraph.

 

[Genez]

I haven't read most past quotes but it is clear that people will keep going around in circles.

I am sad that calvanists have swallowed such a great deception.

The Calvinistic view is that the covering of justification makes us acceptable in God’s sight even if we do continue willfully sinning. They believe that the atonement saves us in this life from the results of sin but not from the sin itself. In effect, the message is declaring that the atonement does not so much change the nature of the Christian in relation to sin as it changes the nature of sin in relation to the Christian.

For some reason, after accepting Jesus, sin is not the same deadly factor it was before. By committing sin as an unconverted person we are doomed to destruction, but committing the same sins after being “saved” cannot prevent salvation.
1Jn 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I John

Chapter 3
1~~Concentrate on how great a love {complex}
the Father has given to us
{Royal Family of God}
that we should be designated students/children of God!

And we are!
{students of God under divine authority and training}

Therefore, the world {cosmic system}
does not understand us
because it {the world/cosmic system}
did not understand Him.
{Jesus Christ on earth in the incarnation}

2~~Beloved {Royal Family}
we are now students/children of God,
and what we will be
{in phase III - Eternity Future}
has not yet been revealed.

We know, however,
that if He should appear
- maybe He will, maybe He will not {in our lifetime} -
we shall be like Him
{not equal, but similar}
because we shall see Him
{resurrected Christ}
just as He is.

{Purity verses Lawlessness - Verses 3-4}
3~~And, everyone {mature believers}
who keeps on having
this hope in him . . . purifies himself
just as He
{that Unique Person of the Universe - Humanity of Jesus Christ}
is pure.

{Note: This verse is indicating that just as Jesus did NOT sin in the prototype Divine Dynasphere,
no one can sin while residing IN the Divine Dynasphere.}

4~~Everyone {believer}
who commits/does sin
also produces/does lawlessness.
{steps out of the Divine Dynasphere (DD) into the Cosmic System}

In fact, sin IS lawlessness.

5~~Indeed you know that
He {Christ} was revealed {1st Advent} . . .
in order that He might carry our sins . . .
and, in fact, sin is not in Him.
{He remained in the Divine Dynasphere}

6~~When anyone
{positive believer}
resides in It
{neuter gender - the Divine Dynasphere},
he is not sinning.

When anyone sins
{no rebound/residence in the Cosmic System} . . .
he {believer still in view here}
has not seen Him {Christ}
nor does he come to know Him.
{no Occupation with Christ}

{Note: This is a 'Key Phrase'! We all sin, but when we are in the Divine Dynasphere we are Not Sinning.
When we sin we immediately move to the cosmic system and 'live by the flesh' and 'not by the Spirit'.}

7~~My dear children/students
{John's non-resident congregation},
let no one deceive you.

When anyone performs righteousness
{function inside the Divine Dynasphere},
he is honorable . . .
just as HE {Christ} keeps on being honorable.

8~~When anyone
{a believer in view}
commits/does a sin . . .
he has become an agent of the devil/accuser/slanderer
because the devil has sinned from the beginning.

For this reason the Son of God appeared/revealed
that He might destroy/void/nullify
the works of the devil.

9~~And at the moment when anyone
is born from God {salvation on},
he is not sinning
{at the point of entering the Divine Dynasphere (DD)}
because His seed
{God the Holy Spirit}
keeps residing in it {the DD}.

Furthermore, he is not able to sin {inside the DD},
because he has been born from God.

{Note: At the moment of salvation you are not able to sin because you are in the Divine Dynasphere.
When from your own volition you decide to sin, you immediately are in the Cosmic System.}

10~~By this, students of God
{believers Walking in the DD}
and disciples of the devil
{believers in the cosmic system}
are manifest/apparent/obvious.

Anyone who does not manufacture integrity/righteousness/dikaiosune
and anyone who does not love his fellow believer . . .
is not from God.
{a believer but outside the DD}

 

[studier]

You haven't really defined "free" either. What do you mean when you say that man's will is "free"? That the will is autonomous? Or that a will cannot be free unless it has the power to make opposing moral choices -- to choose between good or evil, for example?

Not in that post. I've initiated the conversation about the meaning of "free" a few times but could not get too far with it. So, I'll see what you've got to say. I'll also look to see if you responded at all to what that post was about. I'll be flowing freely from paragraph to paragraph saying what comes to mind.

Or could the will be something far more profound than that? God is a free moral agent, yet his will is severely restricted morally. How is this so, you might ask? Answer: I posit that God's will is perfectly free FROM evil, corruption and darkness since His nature is holy, righteous, good and light; therefore, His will is perfectly free TO always make moral choices that accord just as perfectly with his nature; and this is why he cannot lie, cannot deny himself, cannot be tempted, etc.

Well, I wouldn't ask, because I agree that the concept does have limitations. I also recall saying this to another poster who as I recall was saying there are no limitations to freedom.

I can see the set-up coming re: "nature."

Sadly, the inverse is true of fallen man. While man is also a free moral agent, his will is imperfect in every respect since he is free FROM holiness, righteousness and goodness ; for man's nature is evil, profane and darkness itself; therefore, his will is free TO only make moral choices that accord with his evil nature, and this is the reason why man cannot not sin. He cannot not sin because his will is in bondage to his sin nature. For any free moral agent to be truly free in the biblical sense, he must be exactly like God, i.e. free FROM free Evil so that he is free to do Good always. Any man in Adam, therefore, is a type of God by contrast just as Adam himself is type of Christ by contrast.

As I said, the set-up.

We've already gone through this several times. Unregenerate man can in fact choose to accept God based upon the General Revelation that God reveals in him. This man under sin can not only choose to accept or reject this spiritual knowledge, but is held responsible for his choice.

Thus you are defining freedom in your own limited sense based upon your erroneous view of what God has left unregenerate man under in not only able to do but responsible to do. IOW, you are placing limitations on freedom that are not biblical. God has left unregenerate man with the freedom and ability to choose to accept or to reject Him based upon the spiritual information God has provided to him and made certain he knows.

Freedom from evil is another discussion.

My biblical proof for my premise is threefold. First, in eternity God's glorified saints will be totally free from the presence of sin from within and without, which will make all his saints perfectly free to love and obey and glorify God forever and ever. Yet, are we to suppose that we'll become something less than free moral agents, unlike our Creator and Redeemer? Will we become programmed robots because we've been set from evil and won't be able to sin?

Your premise as I see it is incorrect. You're inserting a definition of "free" that is not applicable to unregenerate man who is not free from evil but is free to choose to accept or reject God pursuant to the General Revelation God has made certain he has. So, now you're trying to prove an incorrect premise.

While we're here, since I'm totally opposed to the theory that men do not choose and are not free to choose within the limits of freedom God has created and implemented, I do not find your rhetorical questions of interest. I do think they are good questions for some others participating in this thread.

Secondly, an important question must be asked about Truth: What did Jesus mean when he said, "...and the truth shall set you free" (Jn 8:32)? Free from and/or to do what?

The context that many do not seem to pay attention to, especially the world that often quotes it as a famous saying by at best a wise man, is freedom from sin for His disciples who [choose to and do] remain in His Word.

To stay on track, this does not prove your erroneous premise that unregenerate man has no freedom to choose to accept or reject divine revelation God has made certain he knows.

Thirdly, a very similar question must be asked about what Jesus said about himself: "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed" (Jn 8:36). Again, the Son sets his disciples free from and/or to do what?

Again, for [true] abiding disciples who [choose to and do] remain in His Word, they will be free from sin and and remain in His house forever as sons.

To stay on track, this does not prove your erroneous premise that unregenerate man has no freedom to choose to accept or reject divine revelation God has made certain he knows.

For me the answer is simple and as plain as day: The Truth and the Son (just like God and Moses with he ancient Hebrews in Egypt) both set their people free FROM bondage so that they and we would be truly free TO worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We shouldn't forget that when the Hebrews were enslaved to Pharaoh for 400+ years they basically became just like the king's own people (seed): pagan idol worshipers.

And you have posited this before and continue to neglect the fact that there were people in slavery in Egypt that had chosen to believe in God and to maintain that belief in God and to do what they believed God who had been absent for generations would have them do. At some point(s) they even called out and He heard them.

This theory that unregenerate man cannot choose to believe in God who has made certain that all men know certain spiritual information about Him and are free and responsible to accept Him and be thankful to Him is completely empty and opposed to the Biblical Text. You are taking a theory back into Scripture and negating facts vividly and clearly presented.

In conclusion: TRUE spiritual/moral freedom or liberty consists of freedom from all evil, from within and without, which is the only way we can be free to always make holy, righteous and good choices in our thoughts, words and deeds. Anything less than what I have just said is not freedom in the biblical and spiritual sense. In fact, anything less amounts to bondage!

In conclusion, the erroneous premise is carried though to reach a conclusion that is not applicable to the real argument.

While spiritually dead unregenerate man under sin is not free from sin, such man is still free in the sense of having not only the ability but the resultant responsibility unto God to choose to accept the revelation of God that God in all His undefeatable glory has made certain that such man knows. Man is not only free to accept this divine revelation about God, but conversely free to reject it and thereby choosing to reject God. Since man is free to choose to accept or to reject God, man will bear the responsibility of the choice he has freely made and he will have no excuse for choosing wrongly.

If we want to define freedom, then we must define it within the discussion we are actually having.