Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unbelief, but attributing the works of Jesus to Satan, and not the Holy Spirit...Matthew 12:24-31. This was the very sin the Pharisees just committed.

It's saying that Satan is greater than the Holy Spirit.

For the Pharisees (who saw themselves as being of God) saw Jesus doing greater works than they could do, yet attributed his works to Satan. They being of God could not do them. And, claiming Jesus did greater works than God could have them to do...

Matthew 12:27
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges.

Jesus was slapping them right across their self-righteous superiority complex faces!
For the Pharisees and their sect could not cast out demons!

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.” Matthew 9:33

That was why Jesus said it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! For they who claimed to be God's people doing God's works?
Were claiming that Satan has greater power than God in regard to casting out demons!

The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

The pharisees could not cast out demons.
By calling Jesus of Beelzebub, they were mocking themselves, who claimed were of the true God!

And, that.... Is why it was blasphemy!

 

[Genez]

All that is fine, but people know what love is. Peter was assured of Jesus' love for him. For someone who has no relationship, much of what people are attempting to pass as love is anything but, despite what someone says. No one ever had to tell me they were loving me, even when a loving act proved hurtful.

And having belief come with a purpose is nothing new; Paul said as much...Ephesians 2:10. That doesn't negate the commandment to believe.

You limit what love is to only the nice side of what it is.

When love disciplines and rebukes, you keep failing to see God's love anymore.

​

Proverbs 9:8-9​

​

Do not rebuke a scoffer, or he will hate you;
Rebuke a wise person and he will love you.
Give instruction to a wise person, and he will become still wiser;
Teach a righteous person and he will increase his insight.​

​

Which one are you?
Which one do you want to be?

 

[Cameron143]

You limit what love is to only the nice side of what it is.

When love disciplines and rebukes, you keep failing to see God's love anymore.

​

Proverbs 9:8-9​

​

Do not rebuke a scoffer, or he will hate you;​

Rebuke a wise person and he will love you.​

Give instruction to a wise person, and he will become still wiser;​

Teach a righteous person and he will increase his insight.​

​

Which one are you?
Which one do you want to be?

You don't pay attention. I admitted that a loving act can be hurtful. I simply distinguished it from acts that are hurtful which are not loving. Are you so ready to argue that you can so easily dismiss what someone actually posts?
Like many things, you seem to be most tolerable in small doses. Grace and peace.

 

[Genez]

You don't pay attention. I admitted that a loving act can be hurtful. I simply distinguished it from acts that are hurtful which are not loving. Are you so ready to argue that you can so easily dismiss what someone actually posts?
Like many things, you seem to be most tolerable in small doses. Grace and peace.

I do not read ALL your posts.
I only respond to the one in front of me.

 

[Cameron143]

It's saying that Satan is greater than the Holy Spirit.

For the Pharisees (who saw themselves as being of God) saw Jesus doing greater works than they could do, yet attributed his works to Satan. They being of God could not do them. And, claiming Jesus did greater works than God could have them to do...

Matthew 12:27
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges.

Jesus was slapping them right across their self-righteous superiority complex faces!
For the Pharisees and their sect could not cast out demons!

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.” Matthew 9:33

That was why Jesus said it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! For they who claimed to be God's people doing God's works?
Were claiming that Satan has greater power than God in regard to casting out demons!

The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

The pharisees could not cast out demons.
By calling Jesus of Beelzebub, they were mocking themselves, who claimed were of the true God!

And, that.... Is why it was blasphemy!

I don't see the blasphemy being them saying that Satan is greater than God; although I believe that is blasphemous. I see the blasphemy being them saying God, in essence, is Satan. By aligning Jesus with Satan, this is, in effect, what they were saying.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not read ALL your posts.
I only respond to the one in front of me.

It was in the post you copied and responded to.

 

[stilllearning]

I don't see the blasphemy being them saying that Satan is greater than God; although I believe that is blasphemous. I see the blasphemy being them saying God, in essence, is Satan. By aligning Jesus with Satan, this is, in effect, what they were saying.

I would have to agree. Especially when we look at the culture of that time and the cult of the flies and Beelzebub being the lord of the flies.

Gonna try as I can and make this short.....LOL anyway we know Baal Zebub was a Philistine god. In 2 Kings forget the name of the king but he fell through some lattice was injured and laid up so he sent servants to ask the oracles of Baal Zebub in Ekron if he was gonna recover. God of course sent Elisha to his servants with the message because their is no God in Israel do you enquire of Baal Zebub the god of Ekron. Then let him know he was going to die.

So anyway Baal Zebul or Zebub was a term used by Israel to mock this baal. Depending how they used it could mean lord of flies or lord of dung. In time of course the Greeks came and they would assimilate religions or gods in their pantheon with gods of conquered lands.

So there was a cult of flies associated with Beelzebub. More or less they saw flies as deadly, filthy, and such. So when they would offer sacrifice they would believe that the lord of flies would cast out the flies to keep them from swarming on the blood or the sacrifice.

The Jews had of course come to see the gathering of flies in a religious manner as demonic or evil spirits since they brought death, disease, and such.

So yeah they were declaring that Christ was aligned with the profane, the demonic, and declaring he had the power to do so because he was aligned with the profane. He was castings out demons because he was empowered to do so by alignment.

It was in their very purposeful use of the words cast out and Beelzebub.

 

[Cameron143]

I would have to agree. Especially when we look at the culture of that time and the cult of the flies and Beelzebub being the lord of the flies.

Gonna try as I can and make this short.....LOL anyway we know Baal Zebub was a Philistine god. In 2 Kings forget the name of the king but he fell through some lattice was injured and laid up so he sent servants to ask the oracles of Baal Zebub in Ekron if he was gonna recover. God of course sent Elisha to his servants with the message because their is no God in Israel do you enquire of Baal Zebub the god of Ekron. Then let him know he was going to die.

So anyway Baal Zebul or Zebub was a term used by Israel to mock this baal. Depending how they used it could mean lord of flies or lord of dung. In time of course the Greeks came and they would assimilate religions or gods in their pantheon with gods of conquered lands.

So there was a cult of flies associated with Beelzebub. More or less they saw flies as deadly, filthy, and such. So when they would offer sacrifice they would believe that the lord of flies would cast out the flies to keep them from swarming on the blood or the sacrifice.

The Jews had of course come to see the gathering of flies in a religious manner as demonic or evil spirits since they brought death, disease, and such.

So yeah they were declaring that Christ was aligned with the profane, the demonic, and declaring he had the power to do so because he was aligned with the profane. He was castings out demons because he was empowered to do so by alignment.

It was in their very purposeful use of the words cast out and Beelzebub.

Good lesson, and relatively short. Good to see you posting again. Your post made me think of the book Lord of the Flies.

 

[Genez]

You don't pay attention. I admitted that a loving act can be hurtful. I simply distinguished it from acts that are hurtful which are not loving. Are you so ready to argue that you can so easily dismiss what someone actually posts?
Like many things, you seem to be most tolerable in small doses. Grace and peace.

Looks like the Lord God is to be the arbitrator on this one....

 

[Cameron143]

Looks like the Lord God is to be the arbitrator on this one....

If He reads the posts it shouldn't prove difficult.

 

[Genez]

I would have to agree. Especially when we look at the culture of that time and the cult of the flies and Beelzebub being the lord of the flies.

Gonna try as I can and make this short.....LOL anyway we know Baal Zebub was a Philistine god. In 2 Kings forget the name of the king but he fell through some lattice was injured and laid up so he sent servants to ask the oracles of Baal Zebub in Ekron if he was gonna recover. God of course sent Elisha to his servants with the message because their is no God in Israel do you enquire of Baal Zebub the god of Ekron. Then let him know he was going to die.

So anyway Baal Zebul or Zebub was a term used by Israel to mock this baal. Depending how they used it could mean lord of flies or lord of dung. In time of course the Greeks came and they would assimilate religions or gods in their pantheon with gods of conquered lands.

So there was a cult of flies associated with Beelzebub. More or less they saw flies as deadly, filthy, and such. So when they would offer sacrifice they would believe that the lord of flies would cast out the flies to keep them from swarming on the blood or the sacrifice.

The Jews had of course come to see the gathering of flies in a religious manner as demonic or evil spirits since they brought death, disease, and such.

So yeah they were declaring that Christ was aligned with the profane, the demonic, and declaring he had the power to do so because he was aligned with the profane. He was castings out demons because he was empowered to do so by alignment.

It was in their very purposeful use of the words cast out and Beelzebub.

But, at the same time. They were claiming to be of God. And in effect. Were saying Balazebub was stronger than their God.
For they could not cast out demons. That is why Jesus rubbed it in by asking by whom do they cast out demons.

The Pharisee's wrong confession was saying in effect that God is weaker than Balazebub. Both of you seem to be missing that point.

They could not cast out demons!


And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.” Matthew 9:33

That was why Jesus said it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! For they who claimed to be God's people doing God's works?
Were claiming that Satan has greater power than their God in regard to casting out demons!

The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

Can you see the connection now?

And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges." Matthew 12:27

They could not drive them out!!!! They became the inferior god in their put down of Jesus!

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.” Matthew 9:33


Here we go...... Got to do some errands.

 

[PaulThomson]

They weren't saved...

Agreed

they didn't have the testimony of the Spirit.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

The works Jesus did by the Spirit testified to the Jews who Jesus was. They did have the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' words didn't just come out of the ether. He is responding to the Pharisees, and the claim they made.

Agreed. But we disagree on what part of their response He was responding to. You say He was responding to the symptom of their unbelief. I say He was responding to the cause of the symptom.

The disagreement has been over whether the atonement covers all sins for all persons, and if it does, then how can those forgiven of all sins be still excluded from the Kingdom? We read in John 15:
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hates me hates my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Clearly, hearing what Jesus has been saying and seeing what Jesus has been doing, in some way has made them guilty of sin where they were not held responsible before hearing and seeing Jesus. How did hearing and seing make them guilty of sin? Jesus said that "the words I am speaking are spirit and life."

He also said, "Jhn 12:
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believes on me, believes not on me, but on him that sent me.

45 And he that sees me sees him that sent me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I am not judging him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, [through the Holy Spirit) he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And, John 14:
10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I am speaking to you I am speaking not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

And John 5:
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jesus' works and words were given Him from the Father by the Holy Spirit. To reject as from God those word and works that the Holy Spirit was supplying and using to testify that Jesus is the Christ and bring people to faith in Christ, is the unforgivable sin. No one who does that can be in the faith and dwelling in God's Kingdom. Rejecting the Holy Spirit's witness via Jesus' words and miracles can be expressed in protesting " These works are being done by the Devil." But there are any number of responses that are also possible that dismiss the Holy Spirit's conviction in favour of the status quo.
"It's sleight of hand."
"It's a scam to get your tithes."
"It's hypnotism."
"It's just clever salesmanship."
"It's emotional manipulation."

But the single root unforgivable sin beneath them all is unbelief, trusting in things other than Jesus once the Holy Spirit has made Jesus' reality obvious to a soul through words and deeds.

 

[Cameron143]

Agreed



John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

The works Jesus did by the Spirit testified to the Jews who Jesus was. They did have the testimony of the Holy Spirit.



Agreed. But we disagree on what part of their response He was responding to. You say He was responding to the symptom of their unbelief. I say He was responding to the cause of the symptom.

The disagreement has been over whether the atonement covers all sins for all persons, and if it does, then how can those forgiven of all sins be still excluded from the Kingdom? We read in John 15:
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hates me hates my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Clearly, hearing what Jesus has been saying and seeing what Jesus has been doing, in some way has made them guilty of sin where they were not held responsible before hearing and seeing Jesus. How did hearing and seing make them guilty of sin? Jesus said that "the words I am speaking are spirit and life."

He also said, "Jhn 12:
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believes on me, believes not on me, but on him that sent me.

45 And he that sees me sees him that sent me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I am not judging him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, [through the Holy Spirit) he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And, John 14:
10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I am speaking to you I am speaking not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

And John 5:
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jesus' works and words were given Him from the Father by the Holy Spirit. To reject as from God those word and works that the Holy Spirit was supplying and using to testify that Jesus is the Christ and bring people to faith in Christ, is the unforgivable sin. No one who does that can be in the faith and dwelling in God's Kingdom. Rejecting the Holy Spirit's witness via Jesus' words and miracles can be expressed in protesting " These works are being done by the Devil." But there are any number of responses that are also possible that dismiss the Holy Spirit's conviction in favour of the status quo.
"It's sleight of hand."
"It's a scam to get your tithes."
"It's hypnotism."
"It's just clever salesmanship."
"It's emotional manipulation."

But the single root unforgivable sin beneath them all is unbelief, trusting in things other than Jesus once the Holy Spirit has made Jesus' reality obvious to a soul through words and deeds.

No cloak for their sin...what does that indicate to you?

 

[Genez]

If He reads the posts it shouldn't prove difficult.

He read the posts before the foundation of the earth...

 

[Cameron143]

He read the posts before the foundation of the earth...

And He read them today.

 

[Genez]

And He read them today.

Before the foundation of the earth, He knew you would like to pester people in a cute way.

 

[PaulThomson]

No cloak for their sin...what does that indicate to you?

No cloak for their unbelief/blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That's the one sin that condemns, because the atonement covers everything else

 

[Cameron143]

No cloak for their unbelief/blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That's the one sin that condemns, because the atonement covers everything else

No cloak for their sin simply means their sin is uncovered, and not that it wasn't already there. In other words, existing sin was simply exposed.
None of this is my argument for a limited atonement. For that, I argue the justice of God. Here I was only concerned to identify the unpardonable sin. And that is not unbelief in general, but a specific action which ties Jesus power to Satan, and not the Holy Spirit.
I might take your point of view if they had called Jesus Beelzebub. But that would be blasphemy against Jesus. Blasphemy against the Spirit is where the Spirit is associated with Satan.
Now I don't disagree that the act of associated the Spirit with Satan evidences unbelief; it certainly does. But it evidences many things. It is evidence of rebellion, wickedness, and a litany of other things.

 

[PaulThomson]

No cloak for their sin simply means their sin is uncovered, and not that it wasn't already there. In other words, existing sin was simply exposed.
None of this is my argument for a limited atonement. For that, I argue the justice of God. Here I was only concerned to identify the unpardonable sin. And that is not unbelief in general, but a specific action which ties Jesus power to Satan, and not the Holy Spirit.
I might take your point of view if they had called Jesus Beelzebub. But that would be blasphemy against Jesus. Blasphemy against the Spirit is where the Spirit is associated with Satan.
Now I don't disagree that the act of associated the Spirit with Satan evidences unbelief; it certainly does. But it evidences many things. It is evidence of rebellion, wickedness, and a litany of other things.

No cloak for their sin (singular) simply means their sin (singular) is uncovered, and not that it wasn't already there. In other words, existing sin (singular) was simply exposed. That sin is unbelief in Christ IMHO.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
John 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin (i.e. a sin, not sins), and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin (i.e. a sin, not sins) , because they believe not on me;

The only sin that kept an Israelite from leaving Egypt with Moses was unbelief. The only sin that kept an Israelite from inheriting the promised land was unbelief. The only sin that will keep a human being from leaving the world and inheriting the Kingdom of God is unbelief.; 'because they believe not on Me". Jesus does not say "Of sin, because they indentify the Holy Spirit's works as done by Satan.

 

[Cameron143]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
John 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin (i.e. a sin, not sins), and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin (i.e. a sin, not sins) , because they believe not on me;

The only sin that kept an Israelite from leaving Egypt with Moses was unbelief. The only sin that kept an Israelite from inheriting the promised land was unbelief. The only sin that will keep a human being from leaving the world and inheriting the Kingdom of God is unbelief.; 'because they believe not on Me". Jesus does not say "Of sin, because they indentify the Holy Spirit's works as done by Satan.

All fair points, but that doesn't comport to the context of the passage. But I have enjoyed the discussion. Much grace.
One final thought: when someone does believe, is their unbelief forgiven?