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Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Here is where Jesus/God told gentiles, they are not now, nor were they ever: Under the Law covenant given to Moses.
2 Tim 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God
Romans 2:14 (A) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law
Council at Jerusalem:
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
(NOTE: The James, John & Peter tell the gentiles: They don't need to be circumcised & we NEVER told you, that you're REQUIRED/UNDER Mosaic law covenant)
The Law of Moses was given only to the Israelites. Not Gentiles.
Ex 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that "the LORD doth put a difference between the Nations and Israel".
(NOTE: The LORD put a difference between the Nations/gentiles and Israel)
Gentiles/Heathen/Other Nations were NEVER part of the Mosaic law covenant.
Ex 19:3 God, spoke to Moses saying, Thus shalt thou "say to the house of Jacob" "and tell the children of Israel";
(NOTE: God tells Moses, say to the "house of Jacob/Isreal" and tell the children of Israel. Gentiles have NO PART in this law covenant)
The Mosaic Laws were given by God, to Moses, for ISRAELITES only.
On Mt Sinai, the ISRAELITES (NO Gentiles) agree to """ALL""" the Lord commands them.
Ex 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people (NO Gentiles here), and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And "all the people (NO Gentiles here) answered together", and said, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do"
(NOTE: """ALL""" the Israelites AGREE! NO Gentiles, NONE)
"ALL" the Israelites ADREED!
Exodus 24:7 Moses took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(NOTE: They/Israelites replied in unison, together, """"Naaseh venishma!"""" That is, We will do and we will hear)
Just a few God Given/God Breathed scriptures that poroclaim: Gentiles were NEVER under the Mosaic law covenant.
2 Tim 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God
Romans 2:14 (A) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law
Council at Jerusalem:
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
(NOTE: The James, John & Peter tell the gentiles: They don't need to be circumcised & we NEVER told you, that you're REQUIRED/UNDER Mosaic law covenant)
The Law of Moses was given only to the Israelites. Not Gentiles.
Ex 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that "the LORD doth put a difference between the Nations and Israel".
(NOTE: The LORD put a difference between the Nations/gentiles and Israel)
Gentiles/Heathen/Other Nations were NEVER part of the Mosaic law covenant.
Ex 19:3 God, spoke to Moses saying, Thus shalt thou "say to the house of Jacob" "and tell the children of Israel";
(NOTE: God tells Moses, say to the "house of Jacob/Isreal" and tell the children of Israel. Gentiles have NO PART in this law covenant)
The Mosaic Laws were given by God, to Moses, for ISRAELITES only.
On Mt Sinai, the ISRAELITES (NO Gentiles) agree to """ALL""" the Lord commands them.
Ex 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people (NO Gentiles here), and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And "all the people (NO Gentiles here) answered together", and said, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do"
(NOTE: """ALL""" the Israelites AGREE! NO Gentiles, NONE)
"ALL" the Israelites ADREED!
Exodus 24:7 Moses took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
(NOTE: They/Israelites replied in unison, together, """"Naaseh venishma!"""" That is, We will do and we will hear)
Just a few God Given/God Breathed scriptures that poroclaim: Gentiles were NEVER under the Mosaic law covenant.
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Yes, the Law came from God and was given to the Hebrews through Moses, but we just say "law of Moses" in the interest of simplicity.
You'll feel at home here because in Christian Chat there are many law keepers.
OK, you say Jesus' sacrifice made animal sacrifice no longer necessary, but why was circumcision discontinued?
You'll feel at home here because in Christian Chat there are many law keepers.
OK, you say Jesus' sacrifice made animal sacrifice no longer necessary, but why was circumcision discontinued?
The law of Moses which is God's law was given for many reasons. Mainly this one.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
Jesus the way, the truth and the Life.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deut 30:19
What was set before them that day?
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word (this commandment, thou shall hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
(Deu 30:11-16 KJV)
These text are paraphrased in Romans 10.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)
Christ through which the word (this commandment, thou shall hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.) is in the heart, mind and mouth that we may do it. that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
Jesus the way, the truth and the Life.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deut 30:19
What was set before them that day?
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word (this commandment, thou shall hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
(Deu 30:11-16 KJV)
These text are paraphrased in Romans 10.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)
Christ through which the word (this commandment, thou shall hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.) is in the heart, mind and mouth that we may do it. that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Greetings lightbearer,
Many will argue these points due to perspective. When one is into their "walk" the renewing of the heart and mind is underway! It is a blessed place as those who are underway and no longer kick against the Eternal and His will. Those however who are anchored at the beginning have not yet tasted of the "heavenly gift" and have yet to have the pleasure of your perspective.
The Law that was once antagonistic to us becomes a protagonist! No amount of words can change the perspective, only the Holy Spirit!
I would like to offer another verse to accompany yours above;
Exo 20:6 NIV but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Many, who have studied this verse see the similarities to John 14:21. there is also an interesting translation that sees the English translation like this;
Exo 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love and keep my commandments.
Just a removal of the word "me" doesn't seem to diminish the sentiment at all, only enhance it.
Greetings Marcelo,
It may be helpful to remember that the Northern tribes of Israel, that God divorced, were no longer under the Covenant at Saini. But the Southern Kingdom of Judah was, so they maintained their "covenant guidelines". So, the "Ethnos" of Israel who were called to Christ were no longer held to that "signatory" of the Saini Covenant. While the New Covenant still contained Laws its signatory was different. Some say the signatory for the New Covenant is "Baptism" and that is why many ask "have you been Baptised?" Anywhay this is another debate perhaps, but the point being "signatories"
Now, good gentilic believer/s?
I want you to "think" just what "fulness of the gentiles" could mean.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 10
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
IOW? What would have to take place to provoke Israel to jealousy?
I want you to "think" just what "fulness of the gentiles" could mean.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 10
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
IOW? What would have to take place to provoke Israel to jealousy?
Greetings,
The context of "given"/ Nathan was spoken from the jealous sense that God only ever "gifted" Moses, and by proxy Israel the Law. A gift with conditions Blessings and Curses. The idea that no other men knew these laws or kep
I did not cite the translation because I do not readily remember it. It was cited in a study I had read some time back. I have 30-40 translations and none of them have that exact one either. If I find it I will share it. The only inspired scripture are the original Hebrew and Greek. Every translation into another language is subject to the error of mans bias.
Even God cited the errors in the recorded Torah;
Jer 8:8 NIV "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
Thankfully the Holy Spirit makes these false handling of the scripture manageable!
SG
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IOW? What would have to take place to provoke Israel to jealousy?
But besides that, consider the following.
Just as important, in that verse, is the last word of that verse:
"be come in [G1525 - eiselthē/eiserchomai]" -
"1525 eisérxomai (from 1519 /eis, "into, unto" and 2064/erxomai, "come") – properly, come into, go (enter) into; (figuratively) to enter into for an important purpose – for the believer, doing so to experience the result of the Lord's eternal blessing."
[end quoting from BibleHub; bold mine]
Also, the word for "fulness" there, can (and I believe does) mean "fulness of time" (the full allotment of TIME afforded the Gentiles ["in this present age [singular]"], per Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b [pertaining to "the Gentiles"], before the Romans 9:25/Hosea 1:10 [also Hosea 5:15-6:3's "TILL"], pertaining to "Israel," comes back into play [the "blindness... UNTIL"; and "what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD" Rom11:15 (see also Ezek37:12-14,21-23; Dan12:1-4; Isa26:16-21; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]; Micah5:3/Rev12:13b [<--past tense from that point in the chronology] "then the remnant of his brethren shall return" [see Rev12:17 "with the remnant of her seed"]; etc...)])
G4138 - pléróma - "fulness" -
"Definition: fullness, a filling up
Usage: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4138 plḗrōma – "sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance" (BAGD). See 4130 (plēthō)."
[end quoting BibleHub]
"Definition: fullness, a filling up
Usage: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4138 plḗrōma – "sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance" (BAGD). See 4130 (plēthō)."
[end quoting BibleHub]
Are they a "Christian" who say they are a Christian?
Can we "see" what a Christian looks like? Yes, they shine bright.
Can we hear what a Christian sounds like? Yes, it is in their words.
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord beseech you that
ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called
with lowliness and meekness, with long suffering forebearing one another in love endeavoring
to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace
There is
one body, and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all,
who is above all and through all and in you all
but unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure the gift of Christ wherefore He saith When He ascended up on high He led captivity the captive
and gave gifts unto men.
But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE, against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted
Bear ye one anothers burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ
For if a man think himself to be something when he is nothing HE DECEIVETH HIMSELF
But let every man PROVE HIS OWN WORK, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone and not in another
For every man shall bear his own burden
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things
Be not deceived,
GOD IS NOT MOCKED, FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH,
THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.
Can we "see" what a Christian looks like? Yes, they shine bright.
Can we hear what a Christian sounds like? Yes, it is in their words.
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord beseech you that
ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called
with lowliness and meekness, with long suffering forebearing one another in love endeavoring
to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace
There is
one body, and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all,
who is above all and through all and in you all
but unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure the gift of Christ wherefore He saith When He ascended up on high He led captivity the captive
and gave gifts unto men.
But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE, against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted
Bear ye one anothers burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ
For if a man think himself to be something when he is nothing HE DECEIVETH HIMSELF
But let every man PROVE HIS OWN WORK, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone and not in another
For every man shall bear his own burden
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things
Be not deceived,
GOD IS NOT MOCKED, FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH,
THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.
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Now, good gentilic believer/s?
I want you to "think" just what "fulness of the gentiles" could mean.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 10
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
IOW? What would have to take place to provoke Israel to jealousy?
I want you to "think" just what "fulness of the gentiles" could mean.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 10
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
IOW? What would have to take place to provoke Israel to jealousy?
Greetings NayborBear!,
I will have a go at it:
Paul is quoting Moses as you said from;
Deu 32:16-22 NIV They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. (17) They sacrificed to demons, which are not God— gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear. (18) You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. (19) The LORD saw this and rejected them because he was angered by his sons and daughters. (20) "I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful. (21) They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding. (22) For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains.
If you Go to Genesis where Jacob reaches out to bless Josephs two sons Ephraim and Manesseh and after Joseph carefully places His sons so the elder son Manasseh is blessed with the predominant blessing hand of Jacob, Jacob crosses his arms!;
Gen 48:19-20 KJV And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (20) And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Here’s the KJV plus Strongs Numbers:
Gen 48:19-20 KJV+ And his fatherH1 refused,H3985 and said,H559 I knowH3045 it, my son,H1121 I knowH3045 it: heH1931 alsoH1571 shall becomeH1961 a people,H5971 and heH1931 alsoH1571 shall be great:H1431 but trulyH199 his youngerH6996 brotherH251 shall be greaterH1431 thanH4480 he, and his seedH2233 shall becomeH1961 a multitudeH4393 of nations.H1471 (20) And he blessedH1288 them thatH1931 day,H3117 saying,H559 In thee shall IsraelH3478 bless,H1288 saying,H559 GodH430 makeH7760 thee as EphraimH669 and as Manasseh:H4519 and he setH7760 (H853) EphraimH669 beforeH6440 Manasseh.H4519
“melo ha goyim“ is the Hebrew of the phrase underlined above.
This translates from Hebrew to English as; “The fullness of the Gentiles”
The "Fullness of the Gentiles" is the same as "The fullness of Ephraim"
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DeighAnn, may I ask you... what is your perspective on the usage of the word "restore," here (I bolded it in your post ^ )… is it your understanding that the person in need of this "restore" is one who has lost salvation [or perhaps even forfeited salvation, as some believe is possible (note to readers: not my view [regarding either of these two things as being possible])] and needs brought back to it? Or no? Something other than this? (Like, perhaps someone whose never even been saved yet? [I'm just trying to ascertain your view of what is being conveyed by this use of "restore" here]) … Just wondering.
[EDIT: perhaps I was thinking I was in a different thread, with a different OP title... my apologies]
[EDIT: perhaps I was thinking I was in a different thread, with a different OP title... my apologies]
Almost all of the NT is rooted in the intricacies of the history of the OT. Without a working knowledge of these we can draw conclusions that miss the mark.
Even much of the OT relies upon other OT details to even come close to understanding what is going on.
I am convinced that God created our minds with the intent that our Faith and Spiritual wellness would be dependent upon our applying the logic and reasoning faculties He gave us. We must seek Him out!
For example; How would ;
Gen 9:22 KJV And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
relate to;
Lev 18:8 KJV The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
and;
Lev 20:11 KJV And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
?
All of scripture, inspired by higher thinking beings than us, insists that we use the faculties given to us rather than accepting what other men have written down.
Getting off my soap box...
SG
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