Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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Marcelo, I believe you asked me to read this. I forgot about it, then when I went back to find the original post, there were so many other posts that it was hard to find the original one..plus I am older and sometimes I forget :)

My position would be that Jesus did, indeed, teach salvation by grace, but it was in a veiled manner prior to the Cross, and the ideas are embedded within his remarks. They were shadowy references rather than specific statements, because the atonement on the Cross had not occurred yet.

Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So, the publican was justified by his humble appeal to God, versus the Pharisee, who boasted in HIS works and was no justified.

Discussions regarding this topic are affected by one's understanding of dispensationalism. If you are listening to a teacher who is dispensational, he will have one view of the continuity of the law, and a covenant theologian will have more continuity and view the progression of salvation in a more organic manner.

You may find this video to be interesting:

https://t4g.org/media/2010/06/did-jesus-preach-pauls-gospel-session-vi-2/

I believe this will show you that Jesus did preach Paul's gospel, in a veiled sort of way, but the principles are still there.

By the way, Jesus didn't need to use the exact word "grace" to teach the same concepts.

I believe the author has a point, in that the primary emphasis of Jesus was to focus on the Law, and to convict those who heard him of their failure to keep the Law, so that they would be ready to receive grace when the atonement was completed, and at the preaching by the apostles. However, anyone who was saved prior to Jesus' atonement was saved through the Cross, and not through a different way. They may not have understood all the details, but they were saved by grace through faith alone, in God's ultimate provision, which was Christ.

Piper is not my favorite teacher but if I remember right, I agreed with him on the points he brings up here.

By the way, my position on the Mosaic Covenant is that it exhibited a works principle and a grace principle, but only in a shadow and type form. I don't believe the Mosaic Covenant observance saved anyone, but promised them long life in the land.

The grace principle was exhibited through the possibility of atonement for sins through blood sacrifices, which pointed toward Christ. The works principle was exhibited through the commandments, and the blessings which were conditional upon obedience. No one was perfectly obedient to the law, and in effect, it cursed them. Jesus would remove the curse from them, through his death to the law on the Cross. Believers are joined to Jesus, therefore they have died to the Law, too, and no longer live under its' curse. They are to be obedient to the commandments of God that apply to them, but this obedience is a fruit of their union with Christ.

So I am not sure if these remarks help you, but you might try emailing me directly if you want further clarification. This thread is very long and it is hard to follow sometimes.
Hi, UWC!

I agree that Jesus hinted at salvation by grace. For example: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

In the video you linked, John Piper says he believes that the Lord gave us four Gospels so that we can more fully and accurately see and savor the glories of the Savior. A little further along he says: “Where we meet and fellowship with Jesus is in the Gospels”.

I agree on the importance of the four Gospels and I was a red letter Christian for 29 years. But it is undeniable that there are differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they disagree?

Jesus said: “keep the commandments”; “sell that ye have and give alms”; “obey the scribes and the Pharisees”; “show yourself to the priest and offer sacrifices”; “wash one another’s feet”; “give to the one who begs from you”; “from the one taking away your cloak, also do not withhold the tunic”.

I had a friend some 30 years ago who caused a lot of trouble in many churches accusing pastors of preaching a watered down Gospel because they wouldn’t follow the red letters. He gave away his material assets and started living off his friends. Then he quit his job as an airline pilot because the salary was too high and Jesus said the rich would not enter heaven. The interesting thing is that no pastor could prove him wrong according to Scripture.

Another interesting thing is that my friend knew what Paul said to Timothy:

Here’s what you say to those wealthy in regard to this age: “Don’t become high and mighty or place all your hope on a gamble for riches; instead, fix your hope on God, the One who richly provides everything for our enjoyment.” 18 Tell them to use their wealth for good things.

My friend knew the portion of Scripture above, but claimed that it was in disagreement with Jesus’ teachings and in that case he should stick with what the Lord said.

Most denominations (mine included) still teach that Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing and only a small minority teaches otherwise. See links below.

(Robert Breaker – Jesus vs Paul)

The Gospel Given to The Apostle Paul From Jesus Christ

Are We To Follow Jesus (while on earth) or the Apostle Paul?

How can we follow Jesus if we don’t know exactly what He wants from us?

Don’t you think it’s about time Christians all over the world start dedicating more attention to this issue?
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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Greetings P,

Welcome, and like many of us here I pray this forum brings you to a deeper understanding of the scriptures and of the work of the adversary who seeks, as usual, to twist their meaning to separate men from God, so that you may quench the fiery darts.

SG
There is an implication here that "the adversary" is the single force of evil in this world when in truth man is perfectly capable of being evil all by himself. So do I need to come to a deeper understanding of the scriptures or a deeper understanding of what is your interpretation? Either way we can I love the conversation.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,638
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Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not JUSTIFIED by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be JUSTIFIED .
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be JUSTIFIED by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 2:18 FOR if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Galatians 2:19 FOR I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God FOR JUSTIFICATION
Some don't see the word. No matter how many fonts and styles it takes on.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
A-nomia

A = not; no, without

Nomos = law


"I will say to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work lawlessness."

"Iniquity" isn't a sufficient translation of the Greek word.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
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It's us who have died. Colossians 3:3
Thereby we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. Romans 7:1
Thereby there is no more condemnation for us. Romans 8:1

It is through our death - which is shared with Him in His death - that we have life, raised with Him in His resurrection. Romans 6:8

thats the fundamentals of the working of salvation. It's the reason we all got baptized. It is how we came to be found in Him and how we were made partakers of the Spirit.

That's why I'm like, all this 'law law law' stuff - - do y'all not even know what the gospel is? We died. The law does not even apply. Not one jot or tittle has to be removed for the law to have absolutely no more power whatsoever over a dead man or woman. It is the beautiful simplicity of His perfect Redemption.

But then these 'not one jot or tittle' folks, they remove all kinds of jots and tittles. 'the whole congregation must put to death a sabbath breaker'? That's a command made of jots and tittles. You can't just spiritualuze that away while saying you're under it as a commandment. You have to delete the jots and the tittles. Physical circumcision. Jots and tittles. You can't pretend Christians are under the law and read Galatians. You just can't. It's duplicitous, ignorant or both. The blood of bulls and goats. Jots. Tittles.

Just as ridiculous is this ever present accusation 'you who claim you aren't under the law love your sin and hate righteousness' - that's ignorance. That's false. That's pretending there is no such thing as the gospel.

I have no problem seeing and accepting what Jesus accomplished.


You can scream it till the cows come home, BUT I am free of the law you keep trying to put me under, Jesus made sure you COULDN'T put me under it no matter how hard you tried cause it is gone in the form you keep trying to use it for.

I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior before I ever knew that people tried to find eternal life through the Law. I was not raised under the law and up until a couple of months ago never had anyone try and "put me under it". Never was my salvation a question of ??? anything. It was a gift. No questions associated with it.

I figure the NEW COVENANT takes all that "under it, death and ministration, work, and deed ect" stuff that is being "put forth" as "truth" is why ALL the WORK JESUS did is discarded, and must resort back to the law of Moses because it is the one (though itself is dead), that fits what "you" want to believe and Is needed to "sell" them, and only the old fits the bill to convince "me" there is something wrong with my beliefs. Problem I find is I have the full gospel armor on. I can not be deceived. But a new baby Christian, they deserve a chance.

Nothing can happen without the law. I am not just talking the Law of the kingdom of God I am talking there is nothing EVER CREATED IN THE whole universe that can function with out law.

If the intention was to get rid of the law, it 1. would not have been written inside us. 2. There would not have been a shadow of what "was to come" 3. We would not have need a school master to teach us something that would be extinct on and on....

I am a sinner. Anyone who says they are not is a liar. No law, No sin. No way.

I know, I can't have it all. I can't accept the gifts from God and keep the law yet if Israel would have had faith, well they got it now.
 
May 1, 2019
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There is an implication here that "the adversary" is the single force of evil in this world when in truth man is perfectly capable of being evil all by himself. So do I need to come to a deeper understanding of the scriptures or a deeper understanding of what is your interpretation? Either way we can I love the conversation.
As any eye can see; there are thousands of doctrines derived from mans interpretation of the scriptures. Most of them are in disunity with each other. We do know that we do not have to rely on mans interpretations. The same Spirit that inspired the manuscripts desires to interpret them to those who seek, knock, ask for the truth. :)

SH :)
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,196
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I wish to ask your forgiveness! We started off on the wrong foot,I'm sorry for my offense to you!
You are wise! STAY STRONG!
Immediately. And please forgive me also for my not turning the other cheek as I should have. I am a sinner, working just like you to become less of one. All glory to God. Bless you my friend.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,689
873
113
Hi, UWC!

I agree that Jesus hinted at salvation by grace. For example: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

In the video you linked, John Piper says he believes that the Lord gave us four Gospels so that we can more fully and accurately see and savor the glories of the Savior. A little further along he says: “Where we meet and fellowship with Jesus is in the Gospels”.

I agree on the importance of the four Gospels and I was a red letter Christian for 29 years. But it is undeniable that there are differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they disagree?

Jesus said: “keep the commandments”; “sell that ye have and give alms”; “obey the scribes and the Pharisees”; “show yourself to the priest and offer sacrifices”; “wash one another’s feet”; “give to the one who begs from you”; “from the one taking away your cloak, also do not withhold the tunic”.

I had a friend some 30 years ago who caused a lot of trouble in many churches accusing pastors of preaching a watered down Gospel because they wouldn’t follow the red letters. He gave away his material assets and started living off his friends. Then he quit his job as an airline pilot because the salary was too high and Jesus said the rich would not enter heaven. The interesting thing is that no pastor could prove him wrong according to Scripture.

Another interesting thing is that my friend knew what Paul said to Timothy:

Here’s what you say to those wealthy in regard to this age: “Don’t become high and mighty or place all your hope on a gamble for riches; instead, fix your hope on God, the One who richly provides everything for our enjoyment.” 18 Tell them to use their wealth for good things.

My friend knew the portion of Scripture above, but claimed that it was in disagreement with Jesus’ teachings and in that case he should stick with what the Lord said.

Most denominations (mine included) still teach that Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing and only a small minority teaches otherwise. See links below.

(Robert Breaker – Jesus vs Paul)

The Gospel Given to The Apostle Paul From Jesus Christ

Are We To Follow Jesus (while on earth) or the Apostle Paul?

How can we follow Jesus if we don’t know exactly what He wants from us?

Don’t you think it’s about time Christians all over the world start dedicating more attention to this issue?
I believe the main issue is hermeneutics. What was Jesus trying to accomplish in a given passage? Was he expounding kingdom principles or was he using the Law to convict Jews of sin? Was he using hyperbole or was he being literal? We would have to walk through a given passage of Scripture in order to understand his goal in the particular set of Scriptures.

Without doubt, though, some Christians are not taking the warnings about worldliness seriously. I am trying to live missionally myself.

I'm not sure how your friend was honoring God if he was being a burden to his friends.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I made a general statement that you've attributed to you all on your own. If you see the word then my statement didn't apply to you. Interesting that you still believe it does.
Do you have anything to say about my comment? It is kind of meaty.

We all know who she was talking about. And you said they.. How can I take it to mean anyone other that who SHE was directing her comment to?

But if you are not,, (then I wonder why you asked her the question in the first place) but forgive me.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,139
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You do understand that if you submit yourself to the Law of Moses atonement for your transgressions requires a blood sacrifice?
However if you submit yourself to the law of righteousness, which is a much higher law, the atonement for ALL your transgressions has been completed. There will never be another sacrifice for the sins of man. Submitting yourself to the law of righteousness will free you from condemnation and allow you to live your life thru conviction.There should never be a moment in a christians life when they cannot speak directly to the Master not a moment.
Welcome to Christian Chat!

Don't worry, Perfection, I'm not gonna submit myself to the Law of Moses. My point here is different -- I'm collecting opinions on the differences between the teachings of Jesus and those of Paul. Whom should we follow when they disagree? Check out this vid:

 
Mar 14, 2011
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A-nomia

A = not; no, without

Nomos = law


"I will say to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work lawlessness."

"Iniquity" isn't a sufficient translation of the Greek word.
ἀνομία, -ας, ἡ, (ἄνομος);
1. prop. the condition of one without law,—either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness: Mt. 23:28; 24:12; 2 Th. 2:3 (T Tr txt. WH txt.; cf. ἁμαρτία, 1 p. 30 sq.), 7; Tit. 2:14; 1 Jn. 3:4. opp. to ἡ δικαιοσύνη, 2 Co. 6:14; Heb. 1:9 [not Tdf.], (Xen. mem. 1, 2, 24 ἀνομίᾳ μᾶλλον ἢ δικαιοσύνῃ χρώμενοι); and to ἡ δικαιοσύνη and ὁ ἁγιασμός, Ro. 6:19 (τῇ ἀνομίᾳ εἰς τὴν ἀνομίαν to iniquity—personified—in order to work iniquity); ποιεῖν τὴν ἀνομίαν to do iniquity, act wickedly, Mt. 13:41; 1 Jn. 3:4; in the same sense, ἐργάζεσθαι τὴν ἀν. Mt. 7:23; plur. αἱ ἀνομίαι manifestations of disregard for law, iniquities, evil deeds: Ro. 4:7 (Ps. 31 (32):1); Heb. 8:12 [R G L]; 10:17. (In Grk. writ. fr. [Hdt. 1, 96] Thuc. down; often in Sept.) [Syn. cf. Trench § lxvi.; Tittm. i. 48; Ellic. on Tit. 2:14.]*

88.139 ἀνομία, ας f: to behave with complete disregard for the laws or regulations of a society—‘to live lawlessly, lawlessness, lawless living.’ συλλέξουσιν ἐκ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ σκάνδαλα καὶ τοὺς ποιοῦντας τὴν ἀνομίαν ‘they will gather up out of his kingdom all who cause people to sin and those who live in lawlessness’ Mt 13:41. In some languages one may translate ἀνομία in Mt 13:41 as ‘to live as though there were no laws,’ ‘to refuse completely to obey the laws,’ or ‘to live as one who despises all laws.’
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I have no problem seeing and accepting what Jesus accomplished.


You can scream it till the cows come home, BUT I am free of the law you keep trying to put me under, Jesus made sure you COULDN'T put me under it no matter how hard you tried cause it is gone in the form you keep trying to use it for.
Did you change your view?

The person you are discussing with is not trying to put you under law. He is trying to break you free from the law. Which can never save you
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,139
691
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I believe the main issue is hermeneutics. What was Jesus trying to accomplish in a given passage? Was he expounding kingdom principles or was he using the Law to convict Jews of sin? Was he using hyperbole or was he being literal? We would have to walk through a given passage of Scripture in order to understand his goal in the particular set of Scriptures.

Without doubt, though, some Christians are not taking the warnings about worldliness seriously. I am trying to live missionally myself.

I'm not sure how your friend was honoring God if he was being a burden to his friends.
I told him that, but he wouldn't listen. After a few years he ended up working (as a pilot) for South America's greatest false prophet Edir Macedo.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,638
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Do you have anything to say about my comment? It is kind of meaty.

We all know who she was talking about. And you said they.. How can I take it to mean anyone other that who SHE was directing her comment to?

But if you are not,, (then I wonder why you asked her the question in the first place) but forgive me.
Firstly, I said "some" not "they". Check the record.

And I didn't ask her anything.

Secondly, if you know who she was talking about, but it STILL wasn't you, why are you still attributing what she said and what I said, to you? This is a rhetorical question. Just jumping in here I don't see anyone she quoted with her post. She just listed the passages with the word emphasized.

I do have a particular member in mind when I posted my comment, but no it isn't clear unless it's clearly stated.

This is what happens with assuming what a person says "before asking them" to quote a well known member here who doesn't want me to assume (*wink* lol).

Thirdly, I'd call your statement more milk not meat(ty). Through faith in Christ one is saved; justified. This is one of the elementary truths we're to move on from. That's the foundation.

After that, we are to walk in obedience and "sin no more" using the gifts we were given like Grace, the Holy Spirit and the profitable Scriptures for "training in righteousness."

Sanctification.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Firstly, I said "some" not "they". Check the record.

And I didn't ask her anything.

Secondly, if you know who she was talking about, but it STILL wasn't you, why are you still attributing what she said and what I said, to you? This is a rhetorical question. Just jumping in here I don't see anyone she quoted with her post. She just listed the passages with the word emphasized.

I do have a particular member in mind when I posted my comment, but no it isn't clear unless it's clearly stated.

This is what happens with assuming what a person says "before asking them" to quote a well known member here who doesn't want me to assume (*wink* lol).

Thirdly, I'd call your statement more milk not meat(ty). Through faith in Christ one is saved; justified. This is one of the elementary truths we're to move on from. That's the foundation.

After that, we are to walk in obedience and "sin no more" using the gifts we were given like Grace, the Holy Spirit and the profitable Scriptures for "training in righteousness."

Sanctification.
So are are justified or are we not?

I did not ask you what we do after we are justified. I asked you if we were.


And why if we are justified is not our hope and security (eternal) based on this fact?

I am not gonna respond to the rest. Because not worth it..
 

GyO

New member
Aug 16, 2019
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I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
Jesus said that "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Jesus makes amendments/adjustments on things which are not working properly whether today or in the past.
For example we do not need to shed animal blood to cover our sins but a much better holy blood of Christ is washing utterly away our sins (not just covering them); another one is the 'eye for eye'... but now 'love your enemy'.
So today we still have the foundations of the law of Moses but this law has been amended by Lord Jesus Christ.
Glory to the Lord forever!
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,139
691
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Jesus said that "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Jesus makes amendments/adjustments on things which are not working properly whether today or in the past.
For example we do not need to shed animal blood to cover our sins but a much better holy blood of Christ is washing utterly away our sins (not just covering them); another one is the 'eye for eye'... but now 'love your enemy'.
So today we still have the foundations of the law of Moses but this law has been amended by Lord Jesus Christ.
Glory to the Lord forever!
Welcome to Christian Chat, GyO