Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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You have a good heart PS. Please consider verse 22-23 carefully. It`s plain as day if you can look at it without your preconcieved beliefs.
Just put those down for a couple of minutes.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


The Law of God is a delight to Paul in verse 22.
The Law of sin is in his members (his body) verse 23, the death is sin itself (ie wages of sin), his flesh man nature and his sin is the law of sin and death.
OK, I get you. Paul is torn between the Mosaic law and the law of the flesh.

In verse 21 Paul summarises the law that he finds at work in the struggle he has described in verses 15-20: the desire to do good is matched and over-matched by the tendency to do evil.

Delight in God’s Law - such as was typical of the Jewish people is met by the force of another law. While some take this ‘other law’ to be another function of the Mosaic law itself, the word another (heteros) suggests that Paul has in mind a law distinct from the Mosaic law. This law is the force or power of sin, which Paul sets in contrast to the law of God (see also 3:27; 8:2) Paul confesses himself to be a prisoner of this law of sin, a strong indication that he is describing his past experience as a Jew under the law (contrast 8:2).

(New Bible Commentary)

Surely, in his past experience as a Jew under the law, he kept the Mosaic Law, presumably to the letter which he describes as a law of sin. So, should we delight in the Mosaic law or is it a law of sin? There seems to be a contradiction.

(Dog walk time)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
So are you actually saying that Christians should sacrifice animals? Or am I reading what you wrote wrongly (this thread has got my eyes crossed a bit....)
Of this thread getting yer eyes crossed up bit?
Oh yeah!
Welcome to CC, by the way!

Seems to be 2 sets of "mind sets" at play, in this thread. One is striving in "bringing" ones to Christ!
The "other", or "another", is that which transpires when, and afterwards, one has been confessed to Christ's Father!
While the ones stating "their IS...NO LAW", in the Increasing their numbers, in the "eyes/traditions of men" (vanity).
The other, "standing before Christ's Father", with "cross on back", are futilely explaining, that there are indeed sacrifices that MUST BE MADE!
1 Peter 2

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

To "these ones?" Jesus abolished ALL SACRIFICE! ALL!!! To God, inasmuch as there is nothing for Christ to "offer" UNTO GOD! It's ALL BEEN DONE by "their Jesus!"

In their doing of this? They have have, in their minds, hearts, and faith? Exalted "the Son" GREATOR THAN HE WHO "SENT" HIM!
2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This! Is "their Jesus!"

(can't "tell the players" without a "scorecard!") ;)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
No.

What I understand from scripture is that you are either under the law or you are not, it is one law, and you either keep every single bit of it or you are guilty of all of it. There isn't any 'partially under the law'
And my understanding of the gospel as scripture explains it is that the believer by being identified with Christ is dead as far as the law is concerned and therefore liable to none of it, and also therefore not under its condemnation.

A lot of people in this thread have the idea that unless you are under the law you hate righteousness and love evil and are completely lawless. That's not what scripture says either.
I am not under the law, but I am under Christ, and His command is to love one another as He loved me - so if I walk by faith in love I walk in righteousness, and I walk with morality, and goodness, even without being under law to do those things. Despite whatever false accusations others may make, you're not embracing evil or lawlessness to accept that in Christ you are not under Moses, and it doesn't make the law meaningless or void, and it doesn't make the law 'abolished' - it simply does not preside over or have any power over the dead, and we have died to it in order to belong to God.

This is good news! It is salvation from death and condemnation of hell! It is release from fear and the embrace of hope and trust in Christ!

I get so tired of it being maligned as tho it's 'an excuse to sin' - it is the opposite, it is freedom from from the power of sin, and life in the spirit.
This is good to hear PH!
Now that Jesus has done to and for you, that which He was sent to do?
Step up to the microphone, so to speak, and take that next step!
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
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Ok, so setting aside the issue of salvation,it`s a done deal. Tell me what you think about works.
It depends on what you consider works to be. Some people consider loving others as works while other people see helping an elderly woman cross the street as works.

I rejoice in people who perform works for no other reason than to quietly glorify God, and hopefully planting seeds in the process. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,415
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Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.




[and then Rom8:4 says, "[re: 'the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus']… that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."]
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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OK, I get you. Paul is torn between the Mosaic law and the law of the flesh.

In verse 21 Paul summarises the law that he finds at work in the struggle he has described in verses 15-20: the desire to do good is matched and over-matched by the tendency to do evil.

Delight in God’s Law - such as was typical of the Jewish people is met by the force of another law. While some take this ‘other law’ to be another function of the Mosaic law itself, the word another (heteros) suggests that Paul has in mind a law distinct from the Mosaic law. This law is the force or power of sin, which Paul sets in contrast to the law of God (see also 3:27; 8:2) Paul confesses himself to be a prisoner of this law of sin, a strong indication that he is describing his past experience as a Jew under the law (contrast 8:2).

(New Bible Commentary)

Surely, in his past experience as a Jew under the law, he kept the Mosaic Law, presumably to the letter which he describes as a law of sin. So, should we delight in the Mosaic law or is it a law of sin? There seems to be a contradiction.

(Dog walk time)
You got part way there but your dislike of Moses is still getting in the way. Paul was quoting a Psalm when he said delight in the law. It won`t affect your salvation to not delight in it but you shouldn`t think Paul is lying when he is delighting in it.

The law of sin is the desires of the flesh. The death is the sin and consequence.

Paul has just been talking about it in Romans 6, same terminology, same description.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The Bible isn`t even talking about the Law of Moses when it says Law of sin and death.

Few Christians realize. I never fully realized it until I read beareroflight`s posts today. I`ve read Romans many times, I knew that sin is the real problem in the law of sin and death equation but I never caught that key phrase in verse 23 where Paul says the law of sin is a second law not the law of God he is talking about verse 22. It`s so plain and clear but I never quite got it :)
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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It depends on what you consider works to be. Some people consider loving others as works while other people see helping an elderly woman cross the street as works.

I rejoice in people who perform works for no other reason than to quietly glorify God, and hopefully planting seeds in the process. Nothing more, nothing less.
Good works if you want to and unnecessary if you don`t?
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.




[and then Rom8:4 says, "[re: 'the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus']… that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."]
What is the righteousness of the law?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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What is the righteousness of the law?
roman 8: 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

notice the theme, Flesh Spirit

What did paul say, If we seek after things of the spirit, we will not fulfill lusts of the flesh? And what did Jesus say? LOVE fulfills the law? Where does love from from? THE SPIRIT.


the problem is, just like paul said in Rom 7, We do not ALWAYS follow the spirit. We also fall to the flesh, At that time, we are NOT fulfillin the law we are breaking it.

so in reality

when we are seeking after the spirit (others focused) we are fulfilling the law
When we are seeking after the flesh (self focused) we are not fulfilling the law we are breaking it.


 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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roman 8: 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

notice the theme, Flesh Spirit

What did paul say, If we seek after things of the spirit, we will not fulfill lusts of the flesh? And what did Jesus say? LOVE fulfills the law? Where does love from from? THE SPIRIT.

the problem is, just like paul said in Rom 7, We do not ALWAYS follow the spirit. We also fall to the flesh, At that time, we are NOT fulfillin the law we are breaking it.

so in reality

when we are seeking after the spirit (others focused) we are fulfilling the law
When we are seeking after the flesh (self focused) we are not fulfilling the law we are breaking it.
yes, if one is properly manifesting the Fruits of the Sprit, then one is neither sinning against God or others.

against the Fruits are no laws.

but, here is the reason the judeaizers reject this- in the Fruits of the Sprit, no Sabbath keeping is mentioned, and they just cannot abide by that.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
113
You got part way there but your dislike of Moses is still getting in the way. Paul was quoting a Psalm when he said delight in the law. It won`t affect your salvation to not delight in it but you shouldn`t think Paul is lying when he is delighting in it.

The law of sin is the desires of the flesh. The death is the sin and consequence.

Paul has just been talking about it in Romans 6, same terminology, same description.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The Bible isn`t even talking about the Law of Moses when it says Law of sin and death.

Few Christians realize. I never fully realized it until I read beareroflight`s posts today. I`ve read Romans many times, I knew that sin is the real problem in the law of sin and death equation but I never caught that key phrase in verse 23 where Paul says the law of sin is a second law not the law of God he is talking about verse 22. It`s so plain and clear but I never quite got it :)
I am seeing three laws 1. The law of the flesh. 2. The law of Moses. 3. The 50 commandments Jesus gave us. We have to live with the flesh, living today I follow Jesus and for me Jewish Law has passed me by.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
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I am seeing three laws 1. The law of the flesh. 2. The law of Moses. 3. The 50 commandments Jesus gave us. We have to live with the flesh, living today I follow Jesus and for me Jewish Law has passed me by.
Ok, but what about this?

1 Corinthians 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

The word ordinances means same thing as Law and this word is used in the Bible in reference to the Law of Moses.
In this passage Paul is telling the Corinthians to keep the laws he delivered to them.

What say u?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I am seeing three laws 1. The law of the flesh. 2. The law of Moses. 3. The 50 commandments Jesus gave us. We have to live with the flesh, living today I follow Jesus and for me Jewish Law has passed me by.
what????
 
Mar 14, 2011
68,629
14,403
113
yes, if one is properly manifesting the Fruits of the Sprit, then one is neither sinning against God or others.

against the Fruits are no laws.

but, here is the reason the judeaizers reject this- in the Fruits of the Sprit, no Sabbath keeping is mentioned, and they just cannot abide by that.
oh boy, now starts the sabbath debate..lol
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
691
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where you get there is only 3 laws, and the 50 commands>> WHAT??
I should have said three sets of laws.

There is our sinful flesh which rules us to a large degree. Then there are the Mitzvot laws and thirdly there are the fifty commandments Jesus gave us making three sets of laws.

Do we obey the flesh, this was Paul's dilemma, correct me if I am wrong, at the same time he would be following the Mitzvot, so he would be pulled two ways and then of course as Christians we have the commandments of Jesus.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I should have said three sets of laws.

There is our sinful flesh which rules us to a large degree. Then there are the Mitzvot laws and thirdly there are the fifty commandments Jesus gave us making three sets of laws.

Do we obey the flesh, this was Paul's dilemma, correct me if I am wrong, at the same time he would be following the Mitzvot, so he would be pulled two ways and then of course as Christians we have the commandments of Jesus.
what about the law of Christ and the law of the spirit? or the law of God?

The law of sin and death as paul stated is the law of moses. Because there can be no righteousness found in the law of moses, only death (cursed is the one who does not obey every word)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Ok, but what about this?
1 Corinthians 11 King James Version (KJV)
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
The word ordinances means same thing as Law and this word is used in the Bible in reference to the Law of Moses.
In this passage Paul is telling the Corinthians to keep the laws he delivered to them.
What say u?
I agree with William Kelly on this ^ , where he says:

[quoting Wm Kelly]

""Now I praise you* that in all things ye remember me, and hold fast the traditions according as I delivered [them] to you." (Ver. 2.) Tradition in scripture is used, not only for the added maxims of men, as in Matthew 15, but for what the apostles enjoined on the saints, first orally, then in inspired writings, as also in both ways, while the canon was in course and not yet complete. Compare also Romans 6:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:15."

[end quoting]